How do my roots look?

[zac]

The pics were taken a day after harvest and in the process of shaking off some dirt, some roots fell off. When I took these, it was not to post here but rather to send to my wife at work, so I did not clean the dirt off much. I plan to post more pics when I get a chance to empty the other bags.

What I am wondering is...how to the roots look, and if I should move from 5 gallon to 7 gallon bags (approx 36" plant above dirt). This is my 4th grow and I have planted popped seeds directly into the 5 gal pot the last 3 grows. I have read mixed opinions of "up-potting", so just looking for guidance/advice. I am getting about 5 ounces per plant currently, What strain is this?
Thank you

 

[Nunyabiz]

Little on the small side.

Personally I think up potting is an utter waste of time and just slows down or even outright kills the mycorrhazae colonization of the root zone.

The only possible reason I can imagine to constantly transplant is if you're in heavy poorly aerated dead soil feeding bottled nutrients in plastic pots.
Then it doesn't really matter and may even help a bit.

I have a lot of worms and bugs in my soil so I opt to start germinated seeds in a solo cup for 7 days then transplant that into 25 gallon fabric pots.
That way the worms don't undermine the seedling.
Then the mycorrhazae are totally undisturbed for as long as possible.
The mycorrhazae feed and water the plant considerably more than the plants own roots do. So establishing them in the root zone unmolested is critical for optimum growth.

Here is the last roots I took a pic of, I leave the vast majority of my roots in the pot to break down and nourish the soil for the next grow but I think you can see how big the roots were just from the stump and they were bright white.
Roots completely filled a 25 gallon pot top to bottom packed full.
If you're growing in good soil and just feeding the soil amendments and maybe a few teas then use the biggest pot you can manage and water pretty much everyday about 5% of soil volume.
So a 25 gal pot, water about 1.25 gal 5 to 7 days a week, during the stretch maybe even a bit more depending on your VPD.

Hard to tell from pic but yours almost looks like Coco.
If you're using coco then you're bottle feeding and a 5 gal fabric pot is fine for coco.

 

[zac]

Little on the small side.

Personally I think up potting is an utter waste of time and just slows down or even outright kills the mycorrhazae colonization of the root zone.

The only possible reason I can imagine to constantly transplant is if you're in heavy poorly aerated dead soil feeding bottled nutrients in plastic pots.
Then it doesn't really matter and may even help a bit.

I have a lot of worms and bugs in my soil so I opt to start germinated seeds in a solo cup for 7 days then transplant that into 25 gallon fabric pots.
That way the worms don't undermine the seedling.
Then the mycorrhazae are totally undisturbed for as long as possible.
The mycorrhazae feed and water the plant considerably more than the plants own roots do. So establishing them in the root zone unmolested is critical for optimum growth.

Here is the last roots I took a pic of, I leave the vast majority of my roots in the pot to break down and nourish the soil for the next grow but I think you can see how big the roots were just from the stump and they were bright white.
Roots completely filled a 25 gallon pot top to bottom packed full.
If you're growing in good soil and just feeding the soil amendments and maybe a few teas then use the biggest pot you can manage and water pretty much everyday about 5% of soil volume.
So a 25 gal pot, water about 1.25 gal 5 to 7 days a week, during the stretch maybe even a bit more depending on your VPD.

Hard to tell from pic but yours almost looks like Coco.
If you're using coco then you're bottle feeding and a 5 gal fabric pot is fine for coco.

Thank you. The soil is Fox Farms Happy Frog

 

[SmokingWings]

The pics were taken a day after harvest and in the process of shaking off some dirt, some roots fell off. When I took these, it was not to post here but rather to send to my wife at work, so I did not clean the dirt off much.

It is not uncommon for the thinned roots, usually the ones called feeder roots, to fall off when the plant is removed from the pot of soil it was growing in.

As @Nunyabiz mentions the root ball of root mass does look a bit on the small side. I know you said that the photo was taken the day after harvest but that soil does look dry. Consider using a bit more water throughout the grow and the root mass should be larger, thicker and healthier which means the plant above the soil line would also be larger.

What I am wondering is...how to the roots look, and if I should move from 5 gallon to 7 gallon bags (approx 36" plant above dirt). This is my 4th grow and I have planted popped seeds directly into the 5 gal pot the last 3 grows.

Sounds like you are talking about going to a 7 gallon for the grow instead of the 5 gallon bag. If you can do it then go for it. Those couple extra gallons of soil will also improve the overall health of your plant and that helps to increase your harvest.

Fox Farms Happy Frog is considered a mild soil and is good for about 3-4 weeks before some sort of fertilizing program should be started. Some of the growers here like it for a starter soil for seeds or cuttings. Then they will transplant into a stronger soil.

It will cost a few bucks more but maybe considered going to the Fox Farms Ocean Forest which is a bit more potent. It would still need a fertilizing program after a few weeks but the plants are off to a better start.

have read mixed opinions of "up-potting", so just looking for guidance/advice.

Usually the cautions about transplanting to the next size up container if for growers of 'auto-flower plants'. If growing the traditional 'photo-period plant' most growers do not see a problem at all with several transplanting sessions with the last one being a week or two before flowering.

 

[zac]

It is not uncommon for the thinned roots, usually the ones called feeder roots, to fall off when the plant is removed from the pot of soil it was growing in.

As @Nunyabiz mentions the root ball of root mass does look a bit on the small side. I know you said that the photo was taken the day after harvest but that soil does look dry. Consider using a bit more water throughout the grow and the root mass should be larger, thicker and healthier which means the plant above the soil line would also be larger.


Sounds like you are talking about going to a 7 gallon for the grow instead of the 5 gallon bag. If you can do it then go for it. Those couple extra gallons of soil will also improve the overall health of your plant and that helps to increase your harvest.

Fox Farms Happy Frog is considered a mild soil and is good for about 3-4 weeks before some sort of fertilizing program should be started. Some of the growers here like it for a starter soil for seeds or cuttings. Then they will transplant into a stronger soil.

It will cost a few bucks more but maybe considered going to the Fox Farms Ocean Forest which is a bit more potent. It would still need a fertilizing program after a few weeks but the plants are off to a better start.

Usually the cautions about transplanting to the next size up container if for growers of 'auto-flower plants'. If growing the traditional 'photo-period plant' most growers do not see a problem at all with several transplanting sessions with the last one being a week or two before flowering.

It is not uncommon for the thinned roots, usually the ones called feeder roots, to fall off when the plant is removed from the pot of soil it was growing in.

As @Nunyabiz mentions the root ball of root mass does look a bit on the small side. I know you said that the photo was taken the day after harvest but that soil does look dry. Consider using a bit more water throughout the grow and the root mass should be larger, thicker and healthier which means the plant above the soil line would also be larger.


Sounds like you are talking about going to a 7 gallon for the grow instead of the 5 gallon bag. If you can do it then go for it. Those couple extra gallons of soil will also improve the overall health of your plant and that helps to increase your harvest.

Fox Farms Happy Frog is considered a mild soil and is good for about 3-4 weeks before some sort of fertilizing program should be started. Some of the growers here like it for a starter soil for seeds or cuttings. Then they will transplant into a stronger soil.

It will cost a few bucks more but maybe considered going to the Fox Farms Ocean Forest which is a bit more potent. It would still need a fertilizing program after a few weeks but the plants are off to a better start.

Usually the cautions about transplanting to the next size up container if for growers of 'auto-flower plants'. If growing the traditional 'photo-period plant' most growers do not see a problem at all with several transplanting sessions with the last one being a week or two before flowering.

Thank you very much for the feedback. Here a couple more pics. The one on the right and the two close up pictures are the same plant as first images. I have used ocean forest before, but my nutrient regiment was not good then so I need to retry it.

 

[SmokingWings]

The roots are looking good though the one on the right when looking at them on the pick-up truck tailgate does seem small.

It is surprising that the grass seed stalk made it all the way through the washing and is now on the back of the truck getting its picture taken.

 

[KingJohnC]

I am not a fan of grow bags. In my experience using soft sided grow bags cause the grow medium to dry much faster, 1 full day or more and significantly increasing the amount of nutrient costs by an additional 1/3 for the grow rather than using solid HDPE pots. Increasing the required physical maintenance per week to maintain the same vegetative mass.

When i was a child they offered grow bags made from felt which quickly left the market for the same reasons.

I have never seen any amount of superior or denser root growth in vegetative growth, after harvest or increased yield when using soft grow bags versus solid pots. When the expenses of using an additional 1/3 more chemical fertilizer adding to multiple hundreds dollars more per grow I have not been able to increase yield and only greatly increasing expense per harvested gram.

To me the soft sided grow bags seem to be a scheme from the grow suppliers to increase sales profits.

Are you able to supply the individual harvested weight in grams from each plant roots in the last series of photographs which would allow evaluation of which root structure may improve harvest yields?

In the thread What strain is this? is it the plant exhibiting the fox tailing bud growth on the right side of the photographs of the root systems in the previous series of photographs?

When timed properly transplanting in stages allows for vegetative growth spurts equivalent to how a wave rider or surfer is able to ride a series of waves near to the apex of a wave of the ocean current.

To check root growth the grow medium should be moist, simply invert the pot and repeatedly tap around the pots base and sides to free the pot from the grow medium and remove the pot allowing inspection of the plants root system to evaluate if and when a plant should be transplanted to the next incremental sized pot.

 

[Nunyabiz]

Which is exactly what you want.
Allows far more oxygen to the roots.
Plus the roots air prune instead of circle.
Roots only feed from the root tips, and fabric pots create massively more root tips and feeder roots.

The way you water with fabric pots is pretty much everyday with a far lighter feeding, if the plants are needing more nutrients that means they're using more nutrients which means they're larger healthier plants.
I've noticed huge differences in root mass in fabric bags, not just with cannabis but also with my tomatoes and peppers.

My cannabis roots fill a 20 gallon fabric pot top to bottom in one solid mass of root.
I am using living Organic Soil though, so zero salt based nutrients.
I just feed the soil with amendments and let the worms and microbes do the work, I water everyday with highly oxygenated water.

 

[BakedARea]

I am using living Organic Soil though, so zero salt based nutrients.
I just feed the soil with amendments and let the worms and microbes do the work, I water everyday with highly oxygenated water.

I believe I have been severaly underwatering my plants in fabric pots, especially the ones in the outdoor garden. In the tent, I don't water them everyday. I wait until they get lighter. Your thoughts on that logic? My fear of overwatering has caused issues too. Thanks for the wisdom.

 

[KingJohnC]

I understand your selection of organic soil is superior to commercial chemical fertilizer.

I have grown cannabis indoors in containers up to 6.56853 cubic feet in 49.136 gallon containers

Roots only feed from the root tips, and fabric pots create massively more root tips and feeder roots.

Can you cite reference of this?

 

[BakedARea]

I have grown cannabis indoors in containers up to 6.56853 cubic feet in 49.136 gallon containers

Really? I've never seen someone mention their volume out to this precision. Interesting take...

Can you cite reference of this?

After reading your initial post, you seemed absolutely convinced that fabric pots are useless or not as effective as plastic pots. Any chance you have a cite reference for that? Kind of works both ways right?

Fabric pots or root pruning pots are meant to air prune roots. When roots are pruned, no matter which way you do it, they create ramifications. The greater the ramifications, the greater the surface area that is created for nutrients and water uptake. I don't have a specific source to offer you based on what I have just typed out. It's based on a few years of cumulative research and personal experience. There are many people that use fabric or air pruning pots with incredible success. You do need to use more water though. Something which I am still struggling with by the way. I'm a chronic underwatering fool. Maybe your lack of success is similar to what I experience when I don't give my plants enough water. My plants in fabric pots always have much more finer roots (ramifications) when compared to the plastic containers though. Maybe your root ball size difference is not taking into consideration how much finer the roots will be in fabric pots.

 

[KingJohnC]

Really? I've never seen someone mention their volume out to this precision. Interesting take...

I used a calculator. Had i given the volume in 186 litres I doubt most people reading are both familiar and fluent with the metric system for conversion to imperial units.

After reading your initial post, you seemed absolutely convinced that fabric pots are useless or not as effective as plastic pots. Any chance you have a cite reference for that? Kind of works both ways right?

You do need to use more water though. Something which I am still struggling with by the way. I'm a chronic under watering fool. Maybe your lack of success is similar to what I experience when I don't give my plants enough water.

Either the equipment is able to produce superior harvest result as proof of concept or fails to justify its methods time and financial costs.

Would you or shall you continue expending a greater 1/3 maintenance time and another $180 per plant which yields no greater harvest in order to prove out someone else's unproven concept in an unending cycle?

Are you able to explain why you are tied to an equipment system you declare are not able to manage the maintenance time required to validate?

If any equipment, method or system could indeed be proven out to produce superior harvest why have not agriculture and orchards switched to an industrial application of this equipment in use in practice today?

If this equipment is indeed superior why is it not in use in commercial applications for either root vegetables, rhizomes, root bulbs or legumes which would benefit the greatest from increased root mass growth?

If this equipment and or method is valid where are the nursery plants, shrubs, trees and ornamental flowers we expect at the consumer market will greatly benefit from modern updated concepts in practice?

Are you able to find 5 examples of agriculture or 5 examples of orchards using this same equipment?

The felt bags i mentioned from my childhood I thought that it was bizarre to use the same felt used for jacket lining which became mildewed if it did not dry quickly for growing plants as mildew damp off in gardening is undesirable. Felt bags were tried by an orchard in a neighboring area where I grew up for only a limited time. I asked about the orchard and after 2 years many of the apple trees had died off, the harvest for the first year was below 70% of the previous the second year harvest was 50% -55% of the prior traditional systems harvest yield. The orchard reverted to its previous system desperate in attempt to avoid bank land title foreclosure and or forced land sale at auction best offer for failed farm land.

Maybe your root ball size difference is not taking into consideration how much finer the roots will be in fabric pots.

I do not experience any problem with root mass when using either soft sided or hard sided plastic pots. The only identifiable difference I can relay is when using the fabric pots is a lack of spiralled roots at the outer plant lower side area and bottom which usually air prune during the wet dry watering cycle in plastic pots. You are able to check my completed grow journals in which many I included photographs of the root mass after harvest.

 

[BakedARea]

Well that certainly is a lot to unpack. I personally don't feel the need nor motivation to try and convince you. You are already convinced. The concept of root ramifications is the main thing to consider. That is the purpose of using them. I have and still use both plastic and fabric pots. I certainly use less water with the plastic containers. I don't have years and years of experience. Nor will I attempt to pretend to know or preach about various ways of growing. If I had my choice, I would only grow in the ground and be done with containers.

As for the expense of the nutrients, I use the same amount of topdress no matter the type of container. I'm in soil and rely on the microbes to do the heavy lifting. Only difference is more water is generally required with the fabric pots.

Are you able to explain why you are tied to an equipment system you declare are not able to manage the maintenance time required to validate?

For me, the primary purpose is a better root system. I'm not concerned with having more arterial roots. I want more feeder roots. I will be focused on better maintenance this season but overall, I have been pleased with the performance of fabric pots. They require more work in the sense of requiring more water, which does ultimately mean more time. Nothing I feel I should complain about since I enjoy my time with my plants. With the quantity of plants I have, I can justify that. At commercial scale, that would not make sense since I would need to be focused on profits. Not my motivation. Automated fertigation systems seem to be the new normal for commercial practices. I want to be more hands on with my growing. Doesn't matter which method I choose.

 

[Nunyabiz]

I believe I have been severaly underwatering my plants in fabric pots, especially the ones in the outdoor garden. In the tent, I don't water them everyday. I wait until they get lighter. Your thoughts on that logic? My fear of overwatering has caused issues too. Thanks for the wisdom.

If you're using a properly aerated Living Organic Soil then you should be watering it about 5% of soil volume daily.
So 20 gallon fabric pot would be 1 gallon of water daily.
Especially if you have a cover crop, worms etc.
Never let it dry out.
Keep a thick mulch layer.
Could use a bit less water the first week or so depending on your soil tilth and how much cover crop, and might even need a bit more than 5% per volume during the stretch.

Water a little heavier on the outer edges that dry out quicker.
And use Yucca Extract in the water everyday and preferably oxygenate your water if you can, the more dissolved oxygen the better.

 

[BakedARea]

you should be watering it about 5% of soil volume daily.

I absolutely don't do that. Ooof..Oof...oof
Thanks.