Lush Lighting LED Grow Questions! Ask Us Almost Anything!

[Hosebomber]

I have personally tore apart a Lush panel a friend owned and there was not a single Cree diode in it. I'm not saying that is the case for all of their panels but for the one I took apart it was. So, it's gotta be the Epilux and Blackstar chips!

 

[GardenFaerie]

I have personally tore apart a Lush panel a friend owned and there was not a single Cree diode in it. I'm not saying that is the case for all of their panels but for the one I took apart it was. So, it's gotta be the Epilux and Blackstar chips!

In essence, what does that mean? Is Cree the best made LED?

 

[Hosebomber]

What that post means, is that I took one apart and it didn't have Cree diodes in it. Cree has this little process where they stamp ALL of their diodes with their branding. They threatened to sue a number of companies a few years back for making the claim of using their diodes and not having any in them. MOST companies stopped their claims at that point and accused their panel maker of swapping out their chips.....

Cree currently makes the most efficient white diode. IIRC there last record break was @ 303 lumens per watt back in March. However, this isn't a production diode and it was only driven at 350mA (1 watt). Lumens also isn't the best indicator for plant lighting (unless you are using all white) but it does give an idea of efficiency without doing all the hard math.

Saying one diode or company is the best is very hard to do. I personally like Phillips for deep red but Osram makes the better diode... it just doesn't have the wider range that the Rebel does. Cree's whites and the Rebel whites are almost exactly the same in most situations. Everlight makes a decent copy of the rebel but are ungodly expensive if you are not buying a full roll of diodes.

 

[Icemud]

In essence, what does that mean? Is Cree the best made LED?

Hosebomber did an excellent job in explaining it... basically...

If you take a Epistar 660nm red and compare it with say a phillips lumiled....

the epistar is putting out about 250 mW @ 350mA peak.... where as a Osram is putting out 400 mW @ 350...so you are getting almost double the light emmited with the phillips per unit of electricity. Or another way of saying this is you will get less heat and more light with better chips for the same energy used.

There also are other things like lumen maintenance in which the better chips don't lose efficiency quite as fast and last longer. Also cheaper led chips have a tendency to shift color and dim over time much quicker.

What Hosebomber also was saying is they are saying they use Cree chips, but he personally looked at a light by Lush and it had no Cree chips in it.... Also the other LED brands they mention Blackstar and Epilux are not even real LED chips companies... therefore there sales rep is misinformed on what actually is in the lights.

 

[GardenFaerie]

Thanks Icemud, that is another excellent definition. I'm a big definitionphile!

Someone once told me that, my compliance IS my defiance. He was right.

 

[Barrelhorses]

Hey Barrel!
You know, I thought I replied to you just a couple days after you asked. Actually, I'm pretty sure I typed up a whole response and then.... didn't hit post? I don't know. I fumbled, for darn sure!
So basically.... no exceptions to the 90 day policy. Bummer, I know. Well, manufacture defect and all that aside, anyway. Basically, Mr CEO says: generally within 90 days one will know if they are satisfied with growth, with the direction the plant is headed in, and the truth is, I totally get that. When I saw for the first time a grow converted from HPS to Lush LED, it was literally 2 weeks in and there was a hugely noticeable difference.

That being said, I'll still give you the sweetest deal I possibly can

Thank You

 

[Icemud]

If you take a Epistar 660nm red and compare it with say a phillips lumiled....

the epistar is putting out about 250 mW @ 350mA peak.... where as a Osram is putting out 400 mW @ 350...so you are getting almost .

I just realized I made a slight mistake... I said lets compare phillips and listed osram... Osram puts out 400mW @350 mA and Phillips 360mW @350 mA

 

[skunnymonster]

Sam's going to be quaking in her boots with all this top class knowledge being shared on this thread.

 

[GardenFaerie]

I actually love how informed you guys are about this. There does not seem to be any koolaid drinking in here! Not with yoos guys.

I don't know what kind of diodes Top uses, no idea what spectrum is in the panels I have, but the plants are growing deliciously and that is all I care about. Down the road, if I go in a direction I'd like to go, I may upgrade to a more professional type set-up. There is a rather large learning curve with regard to indoor growing under artificial lighting.

 

[Lush Lighting]

Sam's going to be quaking in her boots with all this top class knowledge being shared on this thread.

LOL nah, I got nothing to be scared of I personally don't have anywhere close to the knowledge of these folks, but my whole team here at Lush does.

 

[Lush Lighting]

Whew! Ok ya'll sure been busy. I'm going to tackle some things, and then talk to Matt later and get answers on some other things.

So: Let me clarify, 'cause I've said this before, but... I myself am not a grower, nor an LED expert. I'm learning a lot about both, and actually the more I learn about LED the more I believe in Lush and know that we have an excellent product. So the brands of chips, for example, is what I have been told. That's one of those things I'll have to ask for clarity on. Although fifty percent of the problem is absolutely my inability to read my own notes: EpiSTAR not EpiLUX. Sigh. Go ahead and point and laugh on that, I do deserve it.

Something that stands out to me: Hosebomber said

"Everlight makes a decent copy of the rebel but are ungodly expensive if you are not buying a full roll of diodes. "

I wanted to say this sort of ties in with what I've been trying to explain about Crawdaddys estimation of how much it costs us to build a light... this is often the case with a lot of our components. I know, I know, it's not possible that we might be paying top price for parts, because Crawdaddy has declared it to be so. But we actually are. We didn't start out building lights by buying components that were within a certain budget; we started building lights to grow good cannabis and then it turns out many of those parts we like and use are "expensive". Which is kind of relative, anyway, on so many different levels.

Hosebomber also mentioned that his friend and he tore apart a Lush Light and found no Cree diodes. What year was the light manufactured, what model is it, when was it purchased, and through what means? It's not exactly fair to say "We tore apart a Lush Light and there were no Cree diodes!!!" as if we lie about what we use without providing any other information. It could be that a retailer decided to make knock off Lush Lights, it could be that it was a demo/testing model that was purchased specially through Matt and was never meant for retail, it could be that someone bought a Lush and upon reselling it kept the panel & sold the casing with a cheaper panel. That's just what my brain came up with in 30 seconds. It could obviously also be a lot less exciting, like maybe it was one of the early production models.

GardenFaerie, you never even knew, but yes we've totally had that "chick bond" going this whole time

 

[Lush Lighting]

Yet they restrict our plant so lets be buds and change the direction of our fight to full on legalization.

Hahahahaha Dusty..Let's be buds... oh you're the cats pajamas, my friend.

 

[Crawdaddy]

Something that stands out to me: Hosebomber said I wanted to say this sort of ties in with what I've been trying to explain about Crawdaddys estimation of how much it costs us to build a light... this is often the case with a lot of our components. I know, I know, it's not possible that we might be paying top price for parts, because Crawdaddy has declared it to be so. But we actually are.

You could very easily prove your position by showing us a PO of the diodes that your company purchased and at what price, heck you could even black out part #'s. But I doubt you buy the individual components, I bet the manufacturer you outsourced it to in China does all that. So you could show us a PO from that company with the price you all paying for per unit. Like I said for a Dominator X2 I would be surprised if over $500 a unit, I would assume you buy them in 100 or 1000 Qtys. BTW in my analysis I was using the 'top price' the Qty 1 price, if you actually worked with diode vendors I am sure you are getting a price break

And honestly it is very scary that you, or even your superiors, do not know exactly what LED diodes are in your lights.

Lastly Sam this is nothing personal against you, sounds like your bosses are keeping things from you, or maybe you should do your own research on these matters so you can see the potential customers perspective instead of just trusting your bosses. I just hate to see a company using dubious, unproven claims and wont back it up with real data. As I have said before because of the quasi black market state of the pot growing industry and the 'newness' of LEDs there are many companies that are ripping people off cause they can get away with it, but you all are not the worst, for a laugh one should check out Bl*ck Dog LED(420 blocks their real name) and compare the panel and price with a Mars 2 panel by TopLED.

 

[Hosebomber]

It was purchased directly from Matt at the LA show. I do not know exactly when and he cannot remember (typical stoner response I got from him) but the light is at least 18 months old. It is labeled Dominator (not sure what you guys are calling you light models now). That is the exact reason I added the following sentence to my original post.

.... I'm not saying that is the case for all of their panels but for the one I took apart it was.....

 

[Barrelhorses]

I actually love how informed you guys are about this. There does not seem to be any koolaid drinking in here! Not with yoos guys.

I don't know what kind of diodes Top uses, no idea what spectrum is in the panels I have, but the plants are growing deliciously and that is all I care about. Down the road, if I go in a direction I'd like to go, I may upgrade to a more professional type set-up. There is a rather large learning curve with regard to indoor growing under artificial lighting.

Yes there is. lol

 

[iGrowYouGrow]

And honestly it is very scary that you, or even your superiors, do not know exactly what LED diodes are in your lights.

Lastly Sam this is nothing personal against you, sounds like your bosses are keeping things from you, or maybe you should do your own research on these matters so you can see the potential customers perspective instead of just trusting your bosses. I just hate to see a company using dubious, unproven claims and wont back it up with real data.

This exactly. Then there's the whole claim of their lights being tailored to work with cannabis. Ok -- I get it that Lush tested their lights exclusively on cannabis and not tomatoes, but without some quantitative data that can show HOW the lights are tailored to cannabis vs. other plants, that claim doesn't hold much water at all. Lush claims years of research, but wont release research data claiming proprietary information. All of the information about what chips and diodes that make up a panel could be gained just by taking one apart, why not just publish what chips and spectrums you use so that we, as your potential customers, can make an informed decision? Withholding this information just makes Lush seem overly secretive at best, and dishonest (something to hide) at worst.

So, what we get is NO specifics on the spectrum they use, NO specifics about internals, wild unsubstantiated claims (I think in one article I saw Lush mentioned that they figured out information regarding photosynthesis that NASA has been struggling with?), and prices way higher than they have any business being. I've been looking into switching from traditional to LED lighting and have been doing a lot of research between the forums and the different LED options. Too bad the post that finally got me to register for the forums had to be negative, but I just had to post because this type of thing drives me nuts.

 

[Governmentchz]

Too bad there isn't yet a "consumer reports" kind of place for the cannabis industry. As igrowyougrow mentioned, the black market state of the entire industry allows for unproven false claims to run rampant with little or no recourse for the consumer. I appreciate the members here holding integrity to a high level. Transparency, truth and honesty will always win the day.

I wish I had the disposable cash and the time, I would develop a standardized test and run all lights through it and openly post the results. Components, ratios, draw, PAR, whatever, and I would also compare against their posted advertising. Again, transparency, truth and honesty are the only way. The ones that do not exhibit these traits usually don't last long. Maybe that's the plan for some of the vendors out there. It happens in every windfall business opportunity. It's solely up to the consumers to find the truth right now, and I will not begrudge anyone who tries to find it as ultimately I might be the one to benefit at some point.

To all Mfg's and vendors; Don't tap dance around the issues nor employ political double-speak to avoid them. If words are spoken or written and nothing is really being said in them or valid questions not answered...well.

This isn't directed at LushLighting in particular, it only happens they are the current poster-child for the argument. At some point, someone with the resources and werewithall will buy a panel or three, take them apart (as hosebomber already has done) and research the parts, run tests and post them. If they do, no doubt there will still be an argument. FFS, some folks still think you can get pregnant from kissing too.

Truth should not be relative.

 

[iGrowYouGrow]

Too bad there isn't yet a "consumer reports" kind of place for the cannabis industry.

I absolutely wish this were the case. Going through all the different companies and trying to dig up comparable specs is one hell of a job! I started to put together a spreadsheet in order to try to compare specs for the different lights, and that starts to show just how little information some companies divulge about their lights.

The first issue seems to be wattage, and even then need to make sure we're comparing actual draw vs. max output, which no LEDs put out -- they would burn out in a month.

Then there's PAR readings. Some companies provide readings on their website, other's have actual videos showing par output (which I prefer -- empirical evidence for the win!), and some companies just flat out do not have that data. It's maddening.

Third, and this is related to PAR readings, what diodes are used in the panel in order to cover a complete spectrum. Some companies are very forthcoming in exactly which nm LEDs they've got in their lights, while others (looking at you Lush) flat out refuse to publish that information. That's fine, that's certainly your right as as company, but it doesn't help me make an informed decision about what is best for my ladies. You can tout the endorsements all you want, but I'm a fact driven person, and I'm extremely wary of any claim made by someone trying to sell me something, especially if that claim is not backed up with evidence. Anyway, I digress.

I feel like the best way to make an informed buying decision comes down to three factors -- what is the price per watt (actual draw) of the light, what are the PAR readings across the coverage area, and how closely does the spectrum of the light meet a plants photosynthesis needs. If I can find a light that meets all those requirements, AND I'm not paying an arm and a leg for it (which means maybe I can buy two instead of one and get better coverage), I'm a happy camper.

Maybe I'll look into publishing my spreadsheet once I have it complete, or make it open to contributions by the community so we can keep the information updated and give everyone an easy way to compare all these different brands. Food for thought.

 

[Governmentchz]

lol...I went and looked for a PAR meter and a refractometer (for another aspect of growing) today. I'm such a nerd, lol, but the scientist in me doesn't allow me to blindly trust in broad or open claims if there is really loose regulation or none at all. Trust the science to provide the truth.

 

[Crawdaddy]

I have mentioned an idea of setting up a crowd funding proposal for testing out many LED panels, but for some reason 420 found that objectionable and removed my posts. They showed no interest in vetting their sponsors. They say they are for 'cannabis awareness', but IMO they are simply interested in keeping their sponsors happy.

They will probably remove this post too.