Magnesium, Mg, and Potassium, K, lockout due to excess Calcium?

[cr8grow]

Day 56, end of week 8. Flip to 12/12 tomorrow, they will have a short day. I checked in after work yesterday and there was still some weight at the bottoms. This morning planned to do the final trim before flip. I usually trim very lightly, but these plants were so dense for their short LSTd height. I had to do several trims low to see small side shoots to chop, etc. This morning the pots were light and plants wilted somewhat. Definitely drinking. I trimmed, watered/fed and checked out all on the workbench. I have a deficiency starting, possibly two. They are not overwatered, I wait for pots to go light, right before wilt (usually). I ph my water to 6.4 after organic nutes. I’m growing in soil, new medium this grow but I test drove one pot last grow with no issues. It’s a local product that’s been improved over several years to fine tune for organic soil weed growers. I’ve used the same organic nutes since my first grow. I supplement with organic cal mag, may be an issue. I have well water, delicious but full of minerals. I took this reading Grow #6…PPM 142, EC 302 @70F. Not sure but I think it’s high but possibly OK. Cabinet humidity runs low…30-50%, could be better. This is my second grow with LED lights. Buds from my first LED Grow 7 are exceptional. The plants look lighter under LED than they are, but clearly have some issues. My first thought was hungry, I don’t think so. It looks like a magnesium (Mg) ockout due to high calcium, which I’m also adding with the organic cal mag. It appears there is also a Potassium (K) lockout started, also due to high calcium. The first pic is the Green Crack on the work bench yesterday to give an idea of the coloration difference in and out of the cabinet. The plants rotated to the front look greener with ambient light. The second pic is the condition I found them in this morning. I often have ugly leaves at the end of a grow, but grow great smoke. My only concern is they need to go another 10 weeKs after flip tomorrow. I’m going to give them a dose of epsom salts and stop the cal mag (4 cal to 1 mag) I’m open to any thoughts. Cheers

 

[Sueet]

I can't help with your actual question, but I just wanted to point out that you should probably wait to flip until you get the problem figured out, otherwise chances are it will just get worse.

 

[cr8grow]

I can't help with your actual question, but I just wanted to point out that you should probably wait to flip until you get the problem figured out, otherwise chances are it will just get worse.

Sueet, Agreed, but with 10 more weeks until chop it’s downhill from here. Cheers

 

[Pat Puffer]

In the soil, nutrients interact with one another leading to changes in availability to plants. The figure below (Mulder’s Chart) displays the various interactions that can occur.
Antagonism: High levels of a particular nutrient in the soil can interfere with the availability and uptake of other nutrients. For example, high nitrogen levels can reduce the availability of boron, potash and copper; high phosphate levels can influence the uptake of iron, calcium, potash, copper and zinc; high potash levels can reduce the availability of magnesium. Thus, the application of high levels of nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium can induce plant deficiencies of other essential elements.

Stimulation: This occurs when the high level of a particular nutrient increases the demand by the plant for another nutrient. For example, increased nitrogen levels create a demand for more magnesium.

Mulders Chart: Nutrient Interactions – Nutriag

www.nutriag.com

 

[Pat Puffer]

According to that chart it looks like you are correct. Excess Calcium (antagonist) interferes with the uptake of potassium/potash & magnesium. Foliar feeding epsom salt can address the magnesium deficiency, but I am not sure how to address the "P".

When root zone issues occur and lock out/interfere nutrient uptake; foliar applications are an option.

If you decide to, spray right after lights out. The stomata open during the first 30 minutes after lights out for transpiration, and be sure to get under the leaves.

 

[Bill284]

Day 56, end of week 8. Flip to 12/12 tomorrow, they will have a short day. I checked in after work yesterday and there was still some weight at the bottoms. This morning planned to do the final trim before flip. I usually trim very lightly, but these plants were so dense for their short LSTd height. I had to do several trims low to see small side shoots to chop, etc. This morning the pots were light and plants wilted somewhat. Definitely drinking. I trimmed, watered/fed and checked out all on the workbench. I have a deficiency starting, possibly two. They are not overwatered, I wait for pots to go light, right before wilt (usually). I ph my water to 6.4 after organic nutes. I’m growing in soil, new medium this grow but I test drove one pot last grow with no issues. It’s a local product that’s been improved over several years to fine tune for organic soil weed growers. I’ve used the same organic nutes since my first grow. I supplement with organic cal mag, may be an issue. I have well water, delicious but full of minerals. I took this reading Grow #6…PPM 142, EC 302 @70F. Not sure but I think it’s high but possibly OK. Cabinet humidity runs low…30-50%, could be better. This is my second grow with LED lights. Buds from my first LED Grow 7 are exceptional. The plants look lighter under LED than they are, but clearly have some issues. My first thought was hungry, I don’t think so. It looks like a magnesium (Mg) ockout due to high calcium, which I’m also adding with the organic cal mag. It appears there is also a Potassium (K) lockout started, also due to high calcium. The first pic is the Green Crack on the work bench yesterday to give an idea of the coloration difference in and out of the cabinet. The plants rotated to the front look greener with ambient light. The second pic is the condition I found them in this morning. I often have ugly leaves at the end of a grow, but grow great smoke. My only concern is they need to go another 10 weeKs after flip tomorrow. I’m going to give them a dose of epsom salts and stop the cal mag (4 cal to 1 mag) I’m open to any thoughts. Cheers

Hey @cr8grow how are you doing this morning.
I didn't realize you put a post for this issue.
I put a reply in your journal.
IMO your overwatering.
Check back a few sets of pics.
Fat heavy droopy leaves.
Let themndry right out.
Extended time between watering and they will bounce back.
I wouldn't flip until they perk up though.
And don't pluck your leaves.
It makes the issue travel and become worse.
Happy growing.

Stay safe
Bill

 

[cr8grow]

According to that chart it looks like you are correct. Excess Calcium (antagonist) interferes with the uptake of potassium/potash & magnesium. Foliar feeding epsom salt can address the magnesium deficiency, but I am not sure how to address the "P".

When root zone issues occur and lock out/interfere nutrient uptake; foliar applications are an option.

If you decide to, spray right after lights out. The stomata open during the first 30 minutes after lights out for transpiration, and be sure to get under the leaves.

Pat, going with your advice and from others here on foliar spray for the epsom salts. Mixed at 1 Tbsp per gallon and will spray tonight right after lights out. All perked up after the water and feed yesterday. Pic from today. Cheers

 

[cr8grow]

Lights now 12/12. I misted all at lights out tonight, 1 quart of foliar epsom salts across all 4 plants. Pics right before lights off and after foliar Mg feed. Cheers

 

[cr8grow]

Happy to see all looking better today. I will stay with veg nutes through stretch and will likely sprinkle a bit of organic potash or wood ashes to stay ahead of a slight potassium deficiency. Guano will go in half strength until full flower puffs in two weeks, then double. These plants look lighter under LED than they actually are. Cheers

 

[Bill284]

Happy to see all looking better today. I will stay with veg nutes through stretch and will likely sprinkle a bit of organic potash or wood ashes to stay ahead of a slight potassium deficiency. Guano will go in half strength until full flower puffs in two weeks, then double. These plants look lighter under LED than they actually are. Cheers

That's a little better looking.
Holding the leaves up , nice color.
Back on track.

Stay safe
Bill

 

[cr8grow]

That's a little better looking.
Holding the leaves up , nice color.
Back on track.

Stay safe
Bill

Bill, took a look in tonight. Too soon for pistil puffs, but soon. New growth looking good. Pics from tonight. Cheers

 

[cr8grow]

Day 68, 2 days from end of week 10. Intervention showing promise, now in early flower. I learned a few things on diagnosis and cause of issues showing in the leaves. Stretching now…I think all will be good. Pics from tonight. Cheers

 

[Bill284]

Day 68, 2 days from end of week 10. Intervention showing promise, now in early flower. I learned a few things on diagnosis and cause of issues showing in the leaves. Stretching now…I think all will be good. Pics from tonight. Cheers

That last pic really shows the growth.
Looking good.
Hope you had a good day Amigo.

Stay safe
Bill

 

[cr8grow]

That last pic really shows the growth.
Looking good.
Hope you had a good day Amigo.

Stay safe
Bill

Bill, thanks for your experienced input. This is my second LED grow and I also changed up soil and amendments, two huge variables. I’m learning and seeing there is a significant genetics influence in how these individual plants grown from seed look, My goal is low effort organic grows with great yields and excellent quality cured buds. Two to three a year, maybe more if autos are in rotation (surprise free Blueberry Auto is a Highly recommended 10 week producer). 12 ozs cured bud each grow is my target from my 3’x3’ cabinet and I’ve come close. I will keep dialing it in. Cheers

 

[Bill284]

Bill, thanks for your experienced input. This is my second LED grow and I also changed up soil and amendments, two huge variables. I’m learning and seeing there is a significant genetics influence in how these individual plants grown from seed look, My goal is low effort organic grows with great yields and excellent quality cured buds. Two to three a year, maybe more if autos are in rotation (surprise free Blueberry Auto is a Highly recommended 10 week producer). 12 ozs cured bud each grow is my target from my 3’x3’ cabinet and I’ve come close. I will keep dialing it in. Cheers

Living organic soil I believe is what you want to run ?
I recommend much bigger pots and lots of teas.
@Nunyabiz is the guy to follow for Los.
He has it dialed right in, lots of great info in his threads.
Take care.

Stay safe
Bill

 

[Nunyabiz]

Bill, thanks for your experienced input. This is my second LED grow and I also changed up soil and amendments, two huge variables. I’m learning and seeing there is a significant genetics influence in how these individual plants grown from seed look, My goal is low effort organic grows with great yields and excellent quality cured buds. Two to three a year, maybe more if autos are in rotation (surprise free Blueberry Auto is a Highly recommended 10 week producer). 12 ozs cured bud each grow is my target from my 3’x3’ cabinet and I’ve come close. I will keep dialing it in. Cheers

As Bill said, if you would like to go LOS and have it pretty fool proof then a minimum of 15 gallon fabric pots is what you need.
25+ gallon is what i recommend.
Buy or make a good Clackamas Coots soil recipe, add rove beetles and predator mites, start a cover crop add some barley straw for mulch and after a week or two add a handful of worms, or use a very high quality worm casting that comes with a few worms and cocoons.
Plant germinated seed in solo cup watered with mycorrhazae, in 7 to 10 days transplant into final pot.
Coat the inside of transplant hole with mycorrhazae and Optiveg.
Water in with aloe vera water.
With LOS you want to get the mycorrhazae colony working with your roots asap, the mycorrhazae can actually feed your plant better than its own roots can.
If the soil wasn't super lively with lots of worms and rove beetles then I would just plant germinated seed directly into 25 gal pot, but its best to have your soil so alive you can talk to it so a week in solo cup inoculated with mycorrhazae is best to get roots established.
Water most everyday, can skip a day once in awhile but usually you water everyday with about 5% of soil volume, so a 20 gallon pot would take about 1 gallon a day, during stretch if she's growing wild might need 10% of soil volume to keep up.
I always oxygenate my water to get as much dissolved oxygen as possible to the roots.
With a proper soil and 25+ gallon pots you could just use plain filtered water and get a great result.
You could also push it a little, turn up the lights, dial in the VPD and add a few extras.
I like a Sprouted Seed Tea of Alfalfa about week 3 of veg.
A splash of coconut water here and there, a few Fermented Plant Juice shots to bring out the terpenes.

Can't go wrong with a LOS grow as long as you start with a proper Clackamas Coots soil recipe.
And never allow the soil to dry out, treat it pretty much as you would coco.

 

[cr8grow]

As Bill said, if you would like to go LOS and have it pretty fool proof then a minimum of 15 gallon fabric pots is what you need.
25+ gallon is what i recommend.
Buy or make a good Clackamas Coots soil recipe, add rove beetles and predator mites, start a cover crop add some barley straw for mulch and after a week or two add a handful of worms, or use a very high quality worm casting that comes with a few worms and cocoons.
Plant germinated seed in solo cup watered with mycorrhazae, in 7 to 10 days transplant into final pot.
Coat the inside of transplant hole with mycorrhazae and Optiveg.
Water in with aloe vera water.
With LOS you want to get the mycorrhazae colony working with your roots asap, the mycorrhazae can actually feed your plant better than its own roots can.
If the soil wasn't super lively with lots of worms and rove beetles then I would just plant germinated seed directly into 25 gal pot, but its best to have your soil so alive you can talk to it so a week in solo cup inoculated with mycorrhazae is best to get roots established.
Water most everyday, can skip a day once in awhile but usually you water everyday with about 5% of soil volume, so a 20 gallon pot would take about 1 gallon a day, during stretch if she's growing wild might need 10% of soil volume to keep up.
I always oxygenate my water to get as much dissolved oxygen as possible to the roots.
With a proper soil and 25+ gallon pots you could just use plain filtered water and get a great result.
You could also push it a little, turn up the lights, dial in the VPD and add a few extras.
I like a Sprouted Seed Tea of Alfalfa about week 3 of veg.
A splash of coconut water here and there, a few Fermented Plant Juice shots to bring out the terpenes.

Can't go wrong with a LOS grow as long as you start with a proper Clackamas Coots soil recipe.
And never allow the soil to dry out, treat it pretty much as you would coco.

Hey Nunyabiz, I have the Rev’s book, a great reference. My little 3’x3’ cabinet has limitations…I run four 5 gallon pots and it’s a puzzle putting plants back in after trim and water/feed going into flower. Due to work and ranch demands my grow style is organic soil super low maintenance big frosty buds high yield careful cure. I’ve seen some of your grow results, impressive. Cheers

 

[BakedARea]

They are looking much better. Such a knotted feeling when they're something just not right. Glad you were able to get it figured out. A lot of great info being shared! I'll swing by the journal soon too.

 

[cr8grow]

BakedArea…It’s been awhile. I will see what’s going on over there as well. My mixed grow, 3 GSCs and one back up Green Crack are looking to be sweet buds. Cheers

 

[Nunyabiz]

Hey Nunyabiz, I have the Rev’s book, a great reference. My little 3’x3’ cabinet has limitations…I run four 5 gallon pots and it’s a puzzle putting plants back in after trim and water/feed going into flower. Due to work and ranch demands my grow style is organic soil super low maintenance big frosty buds high yield careful cure. I’ve seen some of your grow results, impressive. Cheers

A 3'x3' fabric bed would work well and plant 4 plants in it.