N and P and K: Oh my

A

Auggie

Well-Known Member
I have been wondering something.
Want to run some of my wonderings past you guys and see what you think.

Specifically, I am looking at so called 'bud boosters' like MOAB. It has an NPK ratio of 0-52-32.
It boosts buds because the plant needs more P & K during flower, right?

Ok, so, lets say that I use Jacks Fertilizer and they have a 30 lb bag of P for that I bought for a few bucks, and they have a 30 lb bag of K for sale for a few bucks; and I mix these two in water in a 32/52 ratio.

Don't I have the same thing as MOAB?
I don't see anything on the label that says there's anything else in MOAB other than P & K.

What am I missing here?

What is the secret sauce in these so-called 'bud boosters'.
 
Auggie said:
Specifically, I am looking at so called 'bud boosters' like MOAB. It has an NPK ratio of 0-52-32.
It boosts buds because the plant needs more P & K during flower, right?

Ok, so, lets say that I use Jacks Fertilizer and they have a 30 lb bag of P for that I bought for a few bucks, and they have a 30 lb bag of K for sale for a few bucks; and I mix these two in water in a 32/52 ratio.

Don't I have the same thing as MOAB?
I don't see anything on the label that says there's anything else in MOAB other than P & K.
Click to expand...
The bags of P and K that you buy for a few bucks could, and probably do, have different carriers than the MOAB that you are trying to duplicate. The "carriers" being the inert material that is coated with the macro-nutrient that you want.

What might also be missing is the dilution ratio. The MOAB is specifically for certain types of gardening and plants while the bags of stuff are probably for something else entirely. The bags might not even have any mention of diluting with water.

The bags of stuff might be getting the macro-nutrient from something else. Something totally different than what the MOAB uses as the source for the P and the K.

Then again it might be a great solution to the problem of keeping the costs down by buying 35 lbs of P and 35 lbs of K at a time. Just like some of us will buy 50 pound bags of Kelp meal at a farmer's co-op instead of buying the meal in 5 lb boxes at a grow shop. Or buying sulphered molasses at the farmer's co-op by the pound instead of paying a small fortune buying Unsulphered Molasses by the fluid ounce in half pint jars at the supermarket or pre-mixed at the grow shop.
 
Add in what your soil needs the plants arent going to use more cause its there likely it will kill off actually it WILL kill off microbes and fungi that plants need to grow so your plants will actually suffer.

Get a soil test - follow the recommendations.
 

Why is Cannabis NPK Important?​

Cannabis, like all plants, has a ratio of NPK that helps it grow strong and healthy. Just like people, different plants prefer different diets. And just like people, the preferred diet changes as the plant ages. By understanding cannabis NPK, you can adjust the feed to produce a healthier, higher yielding plant.

Recognizing that the needs of the cannabis plant changes over the different stages of its life is really the key to growing the best flowers. The idea is to feed the plant the food it needs at that time in its life. If you were to feed a cannabis plant the same food mix for its entire existence you will probably grow something, maybe even something decent, but you would never grow the highest quality cannabis.

CANNABIS NPK CHART​

Seedlings 2-1-2​

Early Vegetative 4-2-3​

Vegetative 10-5-7​

Vegetative to Flowering Cycle Change 7-7-7​

Early Flowering 5-10-7​

Mid-Flowering 6-15-10​

Late Flowering 4-10-7​

FLUSH: ONLY WATER​

ph-nutrient-chart.jpg
ph nutrient chart

Seedling NPK 2-1-2​

A seedling is stage between germination and the first 5 bladed leaves, typically found at Node 3. A node is simply a pair of new branches/leaves. Node 1 normally has single bladed leaves. Node 2 has 3 bladed leaves. This sequence continues up to 7, 9, 11, and even 13 bladed leaves. The key is that seedling stage ends after node 3 and the pant enters early vegetative stage.

A seedling requires very little feeding. Starting at ¼ strength of whatever is recommended and only every 2nd or 3rd watering. Most seedlings should be able to draw from the soil whatever nutrients they need. Adding a little Root Juice to help the roots grow is always a good idea.

Early Vegetative NPK 4-2-3​

Once the cannabis plant has 5 bladed leaves it enters early vegetative stage. Planted clones also are considered to be in early vegetative stage. Cannabis plants in this stage can move up to a mild feeding, about ½ of the recommended amount in addition to Root Juice.

Vegetation Stage NPK 10-5-7​

As the plant hits nodes 5 and 6, the plant is in vegetative stage. Cannabis plants want a lot of Nitrogen at this stage to help grow strong and healthy. Root Juice can be continue to be added until late vegetative stage. At the end of the vegetative stage, Root Juice is no longer needed, and the plant should be prepared for the changeover to flowering. Start to reduce Nitrogen levels at this point.

Change From Vegetative to Flowering NPK 7-7-7​

Reduce the nitrogen and increase phosphorus and potassium to create a balanced NPK. This can be done by mixing grow and bloom formulas. The goal is to make a stress free transition from vegetative to flowering stage. Radically changing a cannabis plants’ feed can induce stress on the plant and any stress normally stunts growth.

Early Flowering NPK 5-10-7​

Nitrogen is still being reduced. Potassium is being held firm while Phosphorus is still increasing. Cannabis plants want and need Phosphorus to grow flowers. The early flowering phase is roughly 2 -3 weeks for feminized plants, but only 1-2 weeks for autoflowers. This early flowering stage is accompanied by the plant stretching, or growing taller quickly. Once the plant stops growing taller, the stretch and early flowering stage is completed. Flowers should be entirely white pistils.

Mid Flowering NPK 6-13-14​

Mid flowering stage begins once the stretch is complete. This is the most crucial time for feeding in order to create big, dense flowers and buds. Cannabis plants want lots of Phosphorus and Potassium in this stage. A very popular additive is PK 13-14, which is high doses of Phosphorus and Potassium with no Nitrogen in the solution at all. The plants still need Nitrogen so don’t forsake it completely. However the PK 13-14 additives allows you to boost the PK ratios as it is difficult to find over the counter fertilizer with very high concentrations of Phosphorus and Potassium.

Mid flowering stage ends once pistils are beginning to turn brown/red. Mid flowering is about 3-4 weeks in feminized plants and 2-3 weeks in autoflowers.

Late Flowering NPK 4-10-7​

As the pistils start to change to a higher ratio of red/brown and fold over, the cannabis plant is entering late flowering stage. It is time to reduce all NPK and start to wean the plant off the food. As the ratio of brown pistils start to approach 60%-70%, the cannabis flowering stage is beginning to come to an end.

Late flowering lasts 2-3 weeks in feminized plants and 1-2 weeks in autoflowers.

Read more about it here.
 
Ok.
Yes, Jacks is a base fertilizer that is used for a LOT of crops. Corn, wheat, barley, etc.
Jacks has been supplying ferts to farmers for almost a hundred years.

While certain plants have specific needs (feeding corn like cannabis would not work out well), all plants need NPK. Just different concentrations or mixes.
I mix my Jacks to work for Cannabis, and it does a good job ... very, very inexpensively. Also, it allows me to mix each feed to be specifically what they need ... increase PK during bud set, increase N during veg, eliminate N for final two weeks, etc.

But, is the source of the P and K that makes a difference?
The binders and fillers?
Is the Potassium that Jacks sells me so different from the Potassium that MOAB sells me?

And, why doesn't MOAB make claims about that on the label?
What makes them so special?
Or anybody else for that matter ...

I could mix P & K to the same ratio for a nickel, another fifteen cents for packaging, and a buck for shipping ... and I'll sell it to you for $99.99 - deal?
 
Auggie said:
Don't I have the same thing as MOAB?
Click to expand...



There a huge difference between buying a little plastic bottle with a fancy name and label, and buying the exact same soluble elements packaged in 50 pound bags of hydro salts.

The first one costs about a zillion times more, is a zillion times smaller, and is 95% water, but has a fancy label. The second one takes a little bit of research and basic math skills See many farmers wandering the fields pouring little bottles of Super Cornalicous Kernel Blaster into the ground? :laughtwo:

A small amount of money up front not only sets you up in nutrients for life, but you have the ability to tailor them however you want.

Skybound has a thread on this stuff here

Making Your Own Nutrient Concentrates

This is my attempt to compile and condense all of the information I've collected from other grower sites and share it here on 420 in hopes of generating more feedback and ultimately learning more myself. I grew with General Hydroponics for years, but could never seem to nail down a perfect feed...
www.420magazine.com
 
Here is some interesting truth:

Non-agricultural soils generally have adequate amounts of phosphate.

Addition of excess phosphate fertilizer decreases mycorrhizal activity and overall soil health.

So that covers all the P craziness.

Lets look at excess K:

The primary risk of too much potassium is a nitrogen deficiency. This will stunt the growth of the plant and lead to chlorosis, a yellowing of the foliage that first appears on older growth lower on the stem.

Summary:

You dont need to purchase bags of these chemicals when mother nature provides them practically free. Here's a list of some organic P and K amendments you can add to your soil.

P:
Compost
Vermi-compost


K:
Potash - wood ashes (also contains a fair amount of Ca which cannabis love)
Kelp Meal - also has every macro and micro elements required for plant growth.
Crustacean meal

Most of this stuff above is free or very inexpensive.

Buying 30 or 50 pound bags of chemicals to do exactly what??

This is stuff best left for professionals I.E. Farmers and they will ALWAYS get a soil test done in a LAB that will tell them exactly what the soil makeup is and what is required for fertilizers/minerals to improve the soil makeup.
 
bobrown14 said:
chemicals to do exactly what??
Click to expand...

It’s usually called hydroponics.

I was just addressing his original question. As for the ‘50 pound bags, that’s generally the form they come in. For home growers there are a couple companies in the US that divide up those bags and can ship you smaller amounts. Haven’t found many in Canada.
 
Not necessarily growing in water. Could be a variety of mediums - soilless in peat moss, coco, hempy, various packed soil mixes, etc. Probably the majority of growers on this forum are using bottled or packaged soluble nutrients, which is what he was asking about. But I hear what you’re saying about organics- I’m a tree hugger at heart too.

If you’re growing with soluble nutes though, as many are - it doesn’t do the earth any favors buying overpriced bottles of watery stuff, when you could pay far far less for the basic ingredients in powdered form.
 
420% true on the bottles of mostly water but the chemists did all that work.... and the pretty labels. So the artists did even more work.

I wonder who gets paid more at the fertilzer factory. The chemists in the lab or the marketing people making the pretty labels. I'm going with marketing.

My chemists are worms, bacteria and fungi and plant roots directing the production with plant root exudate!
The marketing department is... wait I dont have one. Well maybe its a zip lock freezer bag. Keep your nose outta my weed whats wrong with you covid-19.... sheesh. lol
 
Your marketing department sucks dude.

Worms?- creepy. Hard to package.
‘Exoodate’ ? Wtf. Sounds way too much like ‘ex’ and ‘date’ in the same word. Have you met my ex? Shudder.

Bacteria. Fungi. Wtf. Also creepy. Dangerous. Scary.
What is this - Halloween or something ?
Can we work ‘licous’ or ‘boom’ or ‘tastic’ in there somehow ?

Sorry. Just not sexy enough- not feeling it. Your product is frightening the customers. Bring us something we can use bro.
 
Weaselcracker said:
A small amount of money up front not only sets you up in nutrients for life, but you have the ability to tailor them however you want.
Click to expand...
That's exactly my thoughts.
I have been using Jacks for a long, long time.
Before all the 'specialty' ferts.

I mix the solid powders in different concentrations and have dispensers set up so that I can pour out of them in different mixtures depending on what the plant wants and it's point in life.
Weaselcracker said:
See many farmers wandering the fields pouring little bottles of Super Cornalicous Kernel Blaster into the ground?
Click to expand...
Exactly my point.
Why am I spending hundreds of dollars a pound for Shooting Powder?
I even asked the makers of SP that question: and they couldn't answer.
Weaselcracker said:
For home growers there are a couple companies in the US that divide up those bags and can ship you smaller amounts
Click to expand...
But why.
When you can by a YEAR'S worth of feed for $50?
It doesn't spoil on the shelf.
bobrown14 said:
My chemists are worms, bacteria and fungi and plant roots directing the production with plant root exudate!
Click to expand...
I wish I could go organic.
I have bosses ... they say "no organic ferts."
Weaselcracker said:
Bring us something we can use bro.
Click to expand...
What do YOU use to buff up your buds?
 
Auggie said:
But why.
When you can by a YEAR'S worth of feed for $50?
It doesn't spoil on the shelf
Click to expand...
Because usually for a home grower a 50 pound bag is not a year’s supply it’s more like 100 year supply. The other thing is shipping. Probably way cheaper for you but I live out of the way. When I was looking at getting hydro salts the lowest price for shipping a bag to where I live was $150 and for many places was closer to $300 or more. That was within Canada. Getting it shipped from the US- forget about it.

Auggie said:
What do YOU use to buff up your buds?
Click to expand...

It’s something I think about. I’m still tweaking my nutrients and I generally aim to increase the P and K in the ratio a little bit towards the end of flower. I use a free app called Hydrobuddy to mix the stuff I have in the shelf. Really though I can’t claim to know anything worthwhile in the bud boosting dept.

I would definitely recommend checking out that thread I linked to. Its answering exactly the kind of questions you’re asking here
 
Auggie said:
I wish I could go organic.
I have bosses ... they say "no organic ferts."
Click to expand...
bobrown14 said:
Speechless....
Click to expand...
Why's that?
When you take a 'job', you accept that there are people who outrank you and will make decisions that you are expected to execute.
The person paying for the band, names the tune ... right?
My bosses want my input, and often adopt my recommendations -- but, not always.
And, while I disagree, it is their opinion (and that's the one that counts) that organic methods are too time consuming and uneven in results and require more of an 'artistic' touch than a 'scientific' one.
So ... no organics ... though I do use Mico and Sea Kelp.
 
Some people or their wives probably don’t want a half dozen or more 50 pound bags of fertilizer in the apartment for feeding their four plant tent, and it makes more sense for them to buy smaller amounts.
eBay is one good source, and there are some good companies in California, which is where I seem to remember you being.
Kelp4less has some good stuff.

In my case I have room for large bags but not money in my piggy bank for the zillions of dollars in shipping I’d have to pay to get them.
 

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