Soil buffer and pH adjustments

[Emilya Green]

I understand where you are coming from but in the long run you will find out that the pH test kits using the drops are accurate. You might be talking yourself out of believing that the drops kit is giving you an accurate reading.

The pH meters, whether digital or analog, make testing quicker but not necessarily more or less accurate.


The old saying of "you get what you paid for" is probably applying to the situation.

The problem with test strips is that the reading is very subjective and vague. The problem with drops is again, evaluating the color of the solution, complicated by the fact that when the nutrient mixes are colored either by the nutrients themselves or some dramatically as in Fox Farms solubles, where you end up with the deeply blue, pink or yellow mixes.
So get a meter. There is no excuse in today's technological world to not own a digital meter.
But,
Why are you worried about pH in an veganic grow? Put the outer borders at 8 and 5, and anywhere between that the plants, microbes or anything else don't care about the pH. The only time pH needs to be considered is when running traditional salt chelated synthetic nutes, because chelating 4 elements that don't play well with others in the bottle causes them to be unavailable to the plant unless 1 certain condition exists... that the pH be within a certain narrow range, where the salt bond (chelation) is designed to fall away, and make those elements available to the plant. If you don't run manufactured nutes that use EDTA chelation, there is usually no need to adjust the pH of anything. You are running MC as your fertilizer, and it DOES NOT use EDTA chelation, it uses amino acid chelation. It sucks everything up with the water right into the plant and cares not one iota what the pH is of your soil or the water that comes in, at least in the limits previously mentioned, the 8-5 living range. Some experimenters did seem to find that adjusting the pH of your incoming fluid mixed with MC to the internal pH of the plant (6.1 pH) caused a better nutrient response, and this is probably true, but with the very wide overall nutrient response at various pH levels, pH really isn't a big factor in your nutrient system.

 

[Regrowth]

Cheap pH meters are a waste of money IMO.
Bought a cheap meter - realized quickly that I didn't need it.
Also realized that within a short period of time the meter becomes inaccurate - requiring solution to recalibrate.
Most will also recommend you purchase a solution to store the probe in when not in use.
You'll also need to buy the up / down solution... More money...
If you're in soil just roll with it man - if you're growing hydroponics then sure...
Anyone who disagrees can fight me. I'll be waiting outside.

 

[lilnug420]

I've had cheap meters last me years. I believe it's more important how you store and keep them. They usually die on me whenever I have a couple of years of hiatus from growing. It does'nt matter the brand, if they go dry they die. I believe some guy on another forum revived his by letting it sit in vinegar for a couple of days. Cheers!

mine says to let it sit in distilled water for 3 hours if it dries out?

 

[Wastei]

mine says to let it sit in distilled water for 3 hours if it dries out?

Weird, you should never put a pH probe in distilled water. That's why you use KCL storage solution. Cheers!

 

[lilnug420]

Weird, you should never put a pH probe in distilled water. That's why you use KCL storage solution. Cheers!

thats what i heard too, this meter doesn't mention a storage solution at all in the instructions...

 

[lilnug420]

The problem with test strips is that the reading is very subjective and vague. The problem with drops is again, evaluating the color of the solution, complicated by the fact that when the nutrient mixes are colored either by the nutrients themselves or some dramatically as in Fox Farms solubles, where you end up with the deeply blue, pink or yellow mixes.
So get a meter. There is no excuse in today's technological world to not own a digital meter.
But,
Why are you worried about pH in an veganic grow? Put the outer borders at 8 and 5, and anywhere between that the plants, microbes or anything else don't care about the pH. The only time pH needs to be considered is when running traditional salt chelated synthetic nutes, because chelating 4 elements that don't play well with others in the bottle causes them to be unavailable to the plant unless 1 certain condition exists... that the pH be within a certain narrow range, where the salt bond (chelation) is designed to fall away, and make those elements available to the plant. If you don't run manufactured nutes that use EDTA chelation, there is usually no need to adjust the pH of anything. You are running MC as your fertilizer, and it DOES NOT use EDTA chelation, it uses amino acid chelation. It sucks everything up with the water right into the plant and cares not one iota what the pH is of your soil or the water that comes in, at least in the limits previously mentioned, the 8-5 living range. Some experimenters did seem to find that adjusting the pH of your incoming fluid mixed with MC to the internal pH of the plant (6.1 pH) caused a better nutrient response, and this is probably true, but with the very wide overall nutrient response at various pH levels, pH really isn't a big factor in your nutrient system.

emilya, thanks for all the info, about up potting. what would you recommend? i only wanna up pot twice, i start in a solo cup

from there, i wanna up pot to a 3 gal then 10.


or should i do 5 gal then 10 gal? i was thinking 3>10 is better as there would be a big difference in the soil added, where as from 5 to 10 isn't really that big of an improvement, also 3>10 would make it a bit easier as the plants will still be a size that makes them manageable




also, when you say it's not necessary to PH with megacorp, are you referring in soil specifically? or does that apply to "soilless" stuff like terra canna pro?







i've been using terra canna professional for a few years now, is it good stuff? or is there better stuff out there? maybe soil? mind you i wanna keep using megacrop as fertilizer. does it perform good in terra canna or would it perform better in actual soiL?


i've also read that soiless stuff like terra canna produces higher yields in the same size pot, is this correct?

 

[Emilya Green]

emilya, thanks for all the info, about up potting. what would you recommend? i only wanna up pot twice, i start in a solo cup

from there, i wanna up pot to a 3 gal then 10.

or should i do 5 gal then 10 gal? i was thinking 3>10 is better as there would be a big difference in the soil added, where as from 5 to 10 isn't really that big of an improvement, also 3>10 would make it a bit easier as the plants will still be a size that makes them manageable

also, when you say it's not necessary to PH with megacorp, are you referring in soil specifically? or does that apply to "soilless" stuff like terra canna pro?

i've been using terra canna professional for a few years now, is it good stuff? or is there better stuff out there? maybe soil? mind you i wanna keep using megacrop as fertilizer. does it perform good in terra canna or would it perform better in actual soiL?

i've also read that soiless stuff like terra canna produces higher yields in the same size pot, is this correct?

Solo cup to a 3 is about as much of a leap as from 3 to 10. I have done those jumps myself and I think that is about the right amount of jump for rapid growth. Lately instead of going all the way to 10, have settled for 7 gallon and done just fine. Either way, your plants will be manageable.
It's not a race to move up to the next size container though. You should wait until the roots have filled the previous container before moving up or there is no benefit in successive uppotting and you might as well just start in your final container for all the lack of control you will end up with. We start off in smaller containers for a reason, don't rush moving out of there. If you have read my thesis on how to properly water, you will see that I use the plant's ability to drain the container to determine how strong the roots are, and to make my decision as to when to uppot. Your roots will get stronger and stronger will slowly create a solid rootball that can drain that container of water faster and faster. I carefully watch this wet/dry cycle between waterings until I can see that the roots are so strong that they can drain every bit of water you can get that container of soil to hold, in 24-36 hours. When this happens, you know that the roots are reaching a point of diminishing returns and that it is time to put them in a container at least 3-5x bigger, so that you can start filling it again with roots in that next container. The same rule applies here, and by the time your plants can drain that 3 gallon container in 24-36 hours, it is time to move to your final container. Then, your goal in that final is to again try to fill it with roots in your final time in veg + 2 weeks of stretch in the bloom cycle. At that point your roots are pretty much done rapidly growing, and you go into bloom with whatever roots you end up with. The better roots you have developed by this point, the bigger and better your final yield will be.

No, I would never refer to pH adjusting any soil, I don't believe in it. Soil is manufactured at the pH that it comes to you for a very good reason. Do not rely on some person on the internet advising to adjust the pH of your store bought soil... if it was that necessary, don't you think the manufacturer would have put it there for you already??

Then think about your nutrient of choice, MC. It doesn't care about the pH of your soil or your water. If someone is telling you otherwise, they are mistaken. MC breaks down completely into your water and goes directly into the plant, no matter the pH. The soil just sits there holding up the plant and has no other function than that in an MC grow, no matter what else you put into it. MC has to perform as well in soil as it will in your canna pro. This idea that terra canna or any other soilless will perform better than soil when using MC, is pure speculation and has no basis in fact or theory. MC simply doesn't care. The soil, or soiless mix adds or subtracts nothing... in the MC system it is all about the strength of your mix and the quality of your water, as you mainline the nutrients into the plant via the water.

 

[lilnug420]

Solo cup to a 3 is about as much of a leap as from 3 to 10. I have done those jumps myself and I think that is about the right amount of jump for rapid growth. Lately instead of going all the way to 10, have settled for 7 gallon and done just fine. Either way, your plants will be manageable.
It's not a race to move up to the next size container though. You should wait until the roots have filled the previous container before moving up or there is no benefit in successive uppotting and you might as well just start in your final container for all the lack of control you will end up with. We start off in smaller containers for a reason, don't rush moving out of there. If you have read my thesis on how to properly water, you will see that I use the plant's ability to drain the container to determine how strong the roots are, and to make my decision as to when to uppot. Your roots will get stronger and stronger will slowly create a solid rootball that can drain that container of water faster and faster. I carefully watch this wet/dry cycle between waterings until I can see that the roots are so strong that they can drain every bit of water you can get that container of soil to hold, in 24-36 hours. When this happens, you know that the roots are reaching a point of diminishing returns and that it is time to put them in a container at least 3-5x bigger, so that you can start filling it again with roots in that next container. The same rule applies here, and by the time your plants can drain that 3 gallon container in 24-36 hours, it is time to move to your final container. Then, your goal in that final is to again try to fill it with roots in your final time in veg + 2 weeks of stretch in the bloom cycle. At that point your roots are pretty much done rapidly growing, and you go into bloom with whatever roots you end up with. The better roots you have developed by this point, the bigger and better your final yield will be.

No, I would never refer to pH adjusting any soil, I don't believe in it. Soil is manufactured at the pH that it comes to you for a very good reason. Do not rely on some person on the internet advising to adjust the pH of your store bought soil... if it was that necessary, don't you think the manufacturer would have put it there for you already??

Then think about your nutrient of choice, MC. It doesn't care about the pH of your soil or your water. If someone is telling you otherwise, they are mistaken. MC breaks down completely into your water and goes directly into the plant, no matter the pH. The soil just sits there holding up the plant and has no other function than that in an MC grow, no matter what else you put into it. MC has to perform as well in soil as it will in your canna pro. This idea that terra canna or any other soilless will perform better than soil when using MC, is pure speculation and has no basis in fact or theory. MC simply doesn't care. The soil, or soiless mix adds or subtracts nothing... in the MC system it is all about the strength of your mix and the quality of your water, as you mainline the nutrients into the plant via the water.

all clear thank you, lots of good info on this thread. also happy to learn y'all don't think flushing can damage the plant or slow growth... it just makes no sense to me outdoors, by that logic, if it rains for 3 hours straight in the wild, that would damage the plant, which doesn't really make much sense

 

[lilnug420]

I understand where you are coming from but in the long run you will find out that the pH test kits using the drops are accurate. You might be talking yourself out of believing that the drops kit is giving you an accurate reading.

The pH meters, whether digital or analog, make testing quicker but not necessarily more or less accurate.


The old saying of "you get what you paid for" is probably applying to the situation.

i just can't get the PH drops to work, i got 2 different brands. it's so hard for me to read the scale, the of the water changes depending where you look, if it's sunny vs artificial light for example, and the color of the background too... how can i make sure the reading is correct? i struggle a lot to interpret the color of the water vs the color of the scale

 

[Emilya Green]

i just can't get the PH drops to work, i got 2 different brands. it's so hard for me to read the scale, the of the water changes depending where you look, if it's sunny vs artificial light for example, and the color of the background too... how can i make sure the reading is correct? i struggle a lot to interpret the color of the water vs the color of the scale

it gets even worse when your nutes change the color of the water. With drops, you will always be guessing, at best. There really isn't any better way to do this other than getting a cheap digital meter.

 

[lilnug420]

it gets even worse when your nutes change the color of the water. With drops, you will always be guessing, at best. There really isn't any better way to do this other than getting a cheap digital meter.

what would be a cheap DECENT meter i can buy? my bugdet is hella tight as i'm not working rn

 

[Emilya Green]

I have seen them as low as $30 on Amazon. What nutes are you using that you need to adjust pH for, maybe there is a more economical way for you to grow your meds? MC or Jacks is very cheap, and no real need to pH adjust.

 

[lilnug420]

I have seen them as low as $30 on Amazon. What nutes are you using that you need to adjust pH for, maybe there is a more economical way for you to grow your meds? MC or Jacks is very cheap, and no real need to pH adjust.

i use MC, but i'm in a peat mix (terra canna pro)

 

[Wastei]

i use MC, but i'm in a peat mix (terra canna pro)

You should always pH adjust a salt based plant food. You can grow without pH and EC meters and it will grow plants, just not well and optimally and you wont have any data for troubleshooting.

I used the cheap noname yellow and black meters for years and they work just fine(the ones you use a small screwdriver to calibrate). The most important is that you use KCL storage solution, calibrate with 7.0 pH solution at least once every week then they will last for years.

You only need a pH calibration solution as your reference.

 

[SmokingWings]

i just can't get the PH drops to work, i got 2 different brands. it's so hard for me to read the scale, the of the water changes depending where you look, if it's sunny vs artificial light for example, and the color of the background too... how can i make sure the reading is correct? i struggle a lot to interpret the color of the water vs the color of the scale

I don't know if it will work for you but I am in the Detroit metro area and we have many decent independent tropical fish stores for hobby people. Going to one of them with your water sample and asking them to test and then compare their result with what you see. Or sometimes the big box "pet" stores will have seminars on Saturday afternoons including how to look at pH with drops and how to use their pH Down and Up. Just some suggestions.

Or, some of the hydro or grow or garden shops will help customers read their pH testing if the customer brings in the test drop and a sample of the water.

 

[Emilya Green]

You should always pH adjust a salt based plant food. You can grow without pH and EC meters and it will grow plants, just not well and optimally and you wont have any data for troubleshooting.

I used the cheap noname yellow and black meters for years and they work just fine(the ones you use a small screwdriver to calibrate). The most important is that you use KCL storage solution, calibrate with 7.0 pH solution at least once every week then they will last for years.

You only need a pH calibration solution as your reference.

All nutrients are salt based. Our vital nutrients are all mineral salts. MC however is veganic. It uses amino acid chelation and does not rely on pH to allow the nutrient to be mobile. The nutrient response curve for MC is good from 9-5 pH, practically eliminating the need to pH adjust the incoming fluid. Experimenters found a slightly better nutrient response when matching the incoming fluids to 6.1 pH, the internal pH of our plants, but it was not necessary to do so.

 

[Emilya Green]

i use MC, but i'm in a peat mix (terra canna pro)

MC doesn't care. Do your research. Veganic nutrients do not rely on pH to do their thing.

 

[Wastei]

All nutrients are salt based. Our vital nutrients are all mineral salts. MC however is veganic. It uses amino acid chelation and does not rely on pH to allow the nutrient to be mobile. The nutrient response curve for MC is good from 9-5 pH, practically eliminating the need to pH adjust the incoming fluid. Experimenters found a slightly better nutrient response when matching the incoming fluids to 6.1 pH, the internal pH of our plants, but it was not necessary to do so.

I disagree on all of your statements except that all minerals are salt based. Veganic is a marketing terms and means absolutely nothing!

I don't really care that much about studies when you as a grower should work after your own environmental factors? I don't think it's a good idea to give the same recommendations for every single user?

How can you know that you don't have to pH your input when you have no data to work with? What if the source water is unusable or the medium pH is way out of range?

The nutrient response curve is not good between pH 5-9.0, that's total nonsense. You should work for the optimal stable value not wide pH fluctuations?

 

[Emilya Green]

I disagree on all of your statements except that all minerals are salt based. Veganic is a marketing terms and means absolutely nothing!

I don't really care that much about studies when you as a grower should work after your own environmental factors? I don't think it's a good idea to give the same recommendations for every single user?

How can you know that you don't have to pH your input when you have no data to work with? What if the source water is unusable or the medium pH is way out of range?

The nutrient response curve is not good between pH 5-9.0, that's total nonsense. You should work for the optimal stable value not wide pH fluctuations?

Do your research sir, I did. Look up nutrient pH response in veganic nutrients; the studies are out there. I studied this subject extensively during the year or so that I ran MC and found plenty of data to back up what I am saying. Veganic is certainly NOT just a marketing term, it describes a completely separate family of nutrients. Jack's is also veganic. In both cases the nutrient is processed in a way that it totally absorbs into the water and flows with the water, completely intact, into the plant. Once inside the plant, the amino acids found there break apart the chelated portions of the nutrient mix and the entire nutrient profile is available and already inside the plant. The amino acid chelation envelope is also able to be used by the plant so there is no waste and no debris build up as in EDTA salt based chelation, therefore never a need to flush.

I clearly stated that the pH must be within 5-9. Anything outside of that would need to be adjusted. Then what in the world are you going on about with your wild statement that I should work for a stable value, and no wide fluctuations? Why would there be fluctuations?? Your water is what it is... add the MC and it is again, what it is. The nutrients get up into the plant whether the pH is in the hydro range or well into the 8's in the soil range... it doesn't matter.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

@lilnug420
I also grow outdoors using MC. I don't check ph unless a problem arises, and it's never been the problem.
I grow in Promix organic. I used to use the herb and vegetable mix, now I use the moisture control mix.
Hope that helps.