SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[SweetSue]

Well, I squeezed another 2 grams of oil out of the waste materials. I'm glad I didn't toss them. It's 2 grams of some nasty-tasting oil, though. I suppose it's usable for topical use or in capsules. I wouldn't think taste would be much of a concern with capsules, would it?

Thank you Canyon for the encouragement to try again. I feel better about getting five grams out of that plant material. That gives me two more grams to experiment with. Time to research creams and salves. I have some skin issues that need tending to.

 

[SweetSue]

MajicJim, my first batch of oil has a slightly peppery taste to it. Otherwise the flavor is rather pleasant. I already described the physical sensations earlier, but forgot to mention taste.

That earlier dose carried me a good eight hours before I started to notice it wearing off. That's as long as I get from a full brownie dose with a gram of bud in it. A slightly different type of high, brownies to CCO, with the CCO being a little more intense. I find it fascinating that every different configuration of cannabis gives you a different sensation. Vaping is different from smoking, eating baked goods gives you a different high than ingesting CCO. It's not just the delivery system, but the state of the cannabis being consumed that will modify the body's reaction.

What a fascinating plant.

 

[kelticBlue]

What a fascinating plant.

That is what I was thinking too.

I have fallen behind in my reading here, but alas I have to give my eyes a rest before my lights come on in 2 hours. I got to show the plants some love before I go to sleep.

I am overjoyed with your description of the oil making,

 

[SweetSue]

That is what I was thinking too.

I have fallen behind in my reading here, but alas I have to give my eyes a rest before my lights come on in 2 hours. I got to show the plants some love before I go to sleep.

I am overjoyed with your description of the oil making,

Thank you keltic. That made me feel really special.

 

[SweetSue]

I licked that spatula pretty frequently and followed the oil making with a piece of bread soaked with the clean up in the pan, then had a brownie on top of that.

I think it's fair to say I have an enviable tolerance level. Rad's wife would understand.

That's a fair amount of THC coursing through the system. Kinda racy and zippy and feels downright close to what I enjoy most. I must function at a different level than many others. I can sense that this would freak someone else out, and I find it quite enjoyable. Hmmmm......

Dale would have really enjoyed this. How bitterly ironic that he turned out to be married to SweetSue, but died before he could fully appreciate the benefits of that. I hope he's laughing about that wherever he is.

Let me take this energy and do something productive. Or maybe listen to music and thread surf. Drat! The fundamentalist wants me to be productive. I'll try for a balance and compromise. All this time on the site and I'm still struggling to learn balance. Lol!

 

[shazzy]

Great thread, thank you SweetSue.

 

[CajunCelt]

You having fun yet?

 

[SweetSue]

You having fun yet?

Is there such a thing as "Oil Fever" mon ami? I think I have it. I have that little Med GOM 1.0 ready to go any time now and an arthritis patient with a pressing need. So I'll be making more oil within days. I have a Dark Devil Auto coming down in a couple weeks that offers the possibility of some really interesting oil. That strain is borderline hallucinogenic straight up. Consider the possibilities. This plant should give me more than enough to make oil and still have stash on hand for smoking.

Now I begin the refinement of technique. I tried to document this pretty closely, and my hope is that anyone with ideas on improvements will please step up and offer them. This brainstorming is what we do best people. Help me out here. I'm looking forward to having enough on hand to need the distiller.

And that's just the fun of making the oil. Consuming the oil........ Well, ......... Yeah, I am indeed enjoying that part of it. A girl could get used to this. This may become my preferred choice for cannabis therapy. Lol!

MagicJim, I get it now. This morning it was a choice between oil or brownie. Oil won out. I found myself looking at the brownies and thinking about freezing them. Hahaha! After I bio bomb the oil it becomes more effective meds and more potent as a buzz. I'm in a win/win situation with an abundance of resources.

Mostly I feel grateful.

 

[SweetSue]

Learning about decarboxylation

Neiko recently had a batch of oil tested along with the flowers used to produce it. One of his reasons for doing so was to see what terpenes, if any, survived decarboxylation. Turns out none of them do. What does that mean for us? It means there's no reason to use the oven bag other than to contain the odor, something they do quite well. Putting it in the freezer afterwards for that hour also helps to tamp the odor down, so I'll be continuing to use the oven bags. I'll just know that I'm doing little to preserve the terpenes if I'm going to decarb.

Thank you Neiko, for letting me use these labs.

 

[MagicJim]

Is there such a thing as "Oil Fever" mon ami? I think I have it. I have that little Med GOM 1.0 ready to go any time now and an arthritis patient with a pressing need. So I'll be making more oil within days. I have a Dark Devil Auto coming down in a couple weeks that offers the possibility of some really interesting oil. That strain is borderline hallucinogenic straight up. Consider the possibilities. This plant should give me more than enough to make oil and still have stash on hand for smoking.

Now I begin the refinement of technique. I tried to document this pretty closely, and my hope is that anyone with ideas on improvements will please step up and offer them. This brainstorming is what we do best people. Help me out here. I'm looking forward to having enough on hand to need the distiller.

And that's just the fun of making the oil. Consuming the oil........ Well, ......... Yeah, I am indeed enjoying that part of it. A girl could get used to this. This may become my preferred choice for cannabis therapy. Lol!

MagicJim, I get it now. This morning it was a choice between oil or brownie. Oil won out. I found myself looking at the brownies and thinking about freezing them. Hahaha! After I bio bomb the oil it becomes more effective meds and more potent as a buzz. I'm in a win/win situation with an abundance of resources.

Mostly I feel grateful.

Well. I find myself getting back to basics most of the time and I suspect you will also. Smoking cannabis is really fun too. I think I saw your comments earlier about the forms of use, smoking, vaping, edibles, etc. all have their place for this wonderful plant.

I harvested 2 more yesterday and I smoked what was left of the taster buds and mids this morning. It caused me to get my shower early and I might get some house work done today. Also contemplating doing some crazy stuff in my tent.

But my oil is special; at least for right now.

 

[Chew]

Hi Sue,

I have a question... I'm currently growing CBD Crews Therapy/ 8-10% CBD & 0.5% THC which i will use for oil.

I've read many threads on decarbing for CBD and it's confused me. Is decarbing for maximum CBD the same as for THC? Currently, I decarb @ 110c/230f for 30 mins

 

[Neiko]

Hi Sue,

I have a question... I'm currently growing CBD Crews Therapy/ 8-10% CBD & 0.5% THC which i will use for oil.

I've read many threads on decarbing for CBD and it's confused me. Is decarbing for maximum CBD the same as for THC? Currently, I decarb @ 110c/230f for 30 mins

The test results show the percent of decarb, the black highlighted results. That flower was decarbed at 240 F for 1 hour in the oven. You can see that got about 90% of the cbd decarbed.

 

[Chew]

The test results show the percent of decarb, the black highlighted results. That flower was decarbed at 240 F for 1 hour in the oven. You can see that got about 90% of the cbd decarbed.

Thanks for this. It's in my note book for when the time comes

What about decarbing a 1:1 ratio? What temp and length of time is needed to keep it 1:1?

 

[Neiko]

That was a 1:1 ratio strain, or close to it. So to understand the results, the oil has 266 mg of thc and 305 mg of cbd per gram of oil. The 67% cannabinoids represents the purity of the oil. I used everclear 151 so the best I could of gotten was around 70 ish percent pure. Next time I will increase the time by about 10 minutes to try and get the rest of the thc and more cbd conversion.

 

[Chew]

That was a 1:1 ratio strain, or close to it. So to understand the results, the oil has 266 mg of thc and 305 mg of cbd per gram of oil. The 67% cannabinoids represents the purity of the oil. I used everclear 151 so the best I could of gotten was around 70 ish percent pure. Next time I will increase the time by about 10 minutes to try and get the rest of the thc and more cbd conversion.

Thanks for explaining this.. (i'm a newbie with oil)

I thought if you went over 30 mins it would start to convert the THC to CBN but this shows it's not the case, correct? So can i ask a few more questions if you don't mind?

If i'm using a high THC strain for oil, is 30 mins @ 230f / 110c long enough to get the max amount of THC?
I made oil using a 1:1 strain and i decarbed it as above, does this mean my oil is not very good?

 

[SweetSue]

Thanks for explaining this.. (i'm a newbie with oil)

I thought if you went over 30 mins it would start to convert the THC to CBN but this shows it's not the case, correct? So can i ask a few more questions if you don't mind?

If i'm using a high THC strain for oil, is 30 mins @ 230f / 110c long enough to get the max amount of THC?
I made oil using a 1:1 strain and i decarbed it as above, does this mean my oil is not very good?

Your oil's good Chewey. Next time increase your decarb time and it will be better. I've come to the conclusion that any form of cannabis you can get into the system is going to benefit you. You have to try really, really hard to make cannabis therapies ineffective.

One of the things we learned since starting our search here was that the conversion of THC to CBN is not as aggressive a process as everyone thought. Get your decarb temp as close to 240 F as you can safely get and increase the decarb time to an hour.

 

[Chew]

Your oil's good Chewey. Next time increase your decarb time and it will be better. I've come to the conclusion that any form of cannabis you can get into the system is going to benefit you. You have to try really, really hard to make cannabis therapies ineffective.

One of the things we learned since starting our search here was that the conversion of THC to CBN is not as aggressive a process as everyone thought. Get your decarb temp as close to 240 F as you can safely get and increase the decarb time to an hour.

Love this thread and all the members! Thank you for clearing this up for me Sue. 1hr it is from now on

 

[Neiko]

Thanks for explaining this.. (i'm a newbie with oil)

I thought if you went over 30 mins it would start to convert the THC to CBN but this shows it's not the case, correct? So can i ask a few more questions if you don't mind?

If i'm using a high THC strain for oil, is 30 mins @ 230f / 110c long enough to get the max amount of THC?
I made oil using a 1:1 strain and i decarbed it as above, does this mean my oil is not very good?

Without a test you won't know. 240 F at 1 hour got 98.4% of the thc converted, I don't know if the percent decarb is linear with time. I know people who decarb for different lenghts of time for different effects. This part is all new to me so I can't help you there. I wouldn't worry about cbn too much. I only got 7 mg per gram of oil at 1 hour.

 

[SweetSue]

I've decided not to process the Med GOM 1.0 into oil. I vaped some just a while ago to test it out and got almost immediate relief from the niggling discomfort of a muscle I pulled over a year ago catching Dale as he fell in the shower following open heart double-bypass. I wasn't expecting that to happen, although I should have. This was my first try of a high CBD strain.

This plant is destined for a friend's husband who is challenged with rheumatoid arthritis. They just purchased a vape pen, so I know he can vape. I'm simply going to give him the plant as is and let him explore what a high CBD strain can offer him. It's coming in at 24 grams, full plant, so we're probably talking around 1/2 - 3/4 oz total buds. Not enough to process. I have two big CBD plants that'll finish up around Mid June. I can process them into oil for him.

That means I won't be making oil again until either the Dark Devil Auto or the Auto Jack Herer are ready. Drat!!

 

[SweetSue]

I've been chasing down information on the bioavailability of cannabis suppositories all day now, and I must say I'm disappointed in the way things get put out there as fact. I haven't been able to find a single useful study on this subject. What I did find were these two letters by Dr. Jeffrey Hergenrather to a cancer patient's caregiver that supported my frustration.

How Efficient are Cannabis Suppositories?
Jeffrey Hergenrather, MD, in response to a question from a cancer patient's caregiver, February 7, 2015

I have checked the literature to see if there are any pharmacodynamic/pharmacokinetic studies on cannabinoid absorption via the rectum. There aren't to my knowledge. So far I only have anecdotes as you've mentioned. I'm more confident about the oral route just because I have much experience with that but I wouldn't discount the stories of efficacy by rectal route.

There is a "watershed" of veins in the rectum. Collectively they are called the rectal or hemorrhoidal plexus. The majority of the venous flow ( after absorbing cannabinoids ) goes by way of the superior rectal vein into the portal vein, while the inferior veins flow into the vena cava. The portal vein collects most all venous return from the pancreas to the rectum with all the nutrients and enzymes for digestion) where the blood goes on to the liver for what is called "first-pass metabolism." The majority of the THC is converted to 11-OH-THC, a similarly psychoactive molecule. The vena cava on the other hand goes back to the heart and general circulation before it more slowly reaches the liver for metabolism.

I don't mind sharing a link for a recent advert for suppositories, it is just that I don't believe much of the information.

Cannabis Suppositories: Why the Posterior Is Superior | UnitedPatientsGroup.com Blog

I question many of the allegations in this article as unsupported by controlled laboratory evidence. Particularly in the statements saying that the absorption is much faster and more complete than the ingested route. I agree that the inhaled route is only about 10-20% absorbed. Oral route varies widely depending on meals and type of preparations. Cannabis leaf is not well absorbed whereas oils are absorbed quite well. I would expect large meals would retard absorption compared to small oily meals. I don't know where the "50-70% efficiency" or the "10-15 minute onset" information comes from other than well intended anecdotes.

The key point about rectal administration is to avoid psycho-activity while achieving high-dose cannabinoid therapy. If I were striving for high-dose administration I would use the oral route until more evidence reveals the dynamics of the rectal route.

I suspect cannabis clinicians tend to recommend more cannabis /cannabinoids much of the time as the urgency of the clinical course demands. When there is more time I suspect small steady doses are adequate for the sensitive cancers whereas the less sensitive cancers may require the megadoses of oil, "60 grams over 90 days", or, 20-25 mg/kg/day of cannabinoids irregardless of the urgency. Eventually, clinical studies will guide our recommendations. Until then try to get as much cannabinoids into the body by any route, with frequency of administration at least daily, and preferably a few times per day.

Again, best wishes,

Jeff Hergenrather MD

From Jeffrey Hergenrather, MD, February 8, 2015


A follow up note to the above.


In my previous note, it would have been more accurate to say that there is very little data pertaining to the megadose use of cannabis oil by way of rectal administration.

A 2007 paper by Marilyn Huestis cites rectal administration data comes from the "THC-hemisuccinate," or Marinol, in monkeys and in two patients in the Brenneisen (and ElSohly) et al study who were receiving cannabinoids for spasticity. The doses are small, with a specific molecule (the hemisuccinate), and they have a range of blood levels that don't support sweeping conclusions comparing oral v. rectal routes.

Here is the section that Huestis provides on the subject:
2.1.4. Rectal. Several different suppository formulations were evaluated in monkeys to determine the matrix that maximizes bioavailability and reduces first-pass metabolism [40] [41]; THC-hemisuccinate provided the highest bioavailability of
13.5%. Brenneisen et al. evaluated plasma THC concentrations in two patients who were prescribed THC-hemisuccinate suppositories or MarinolM for spasticity [42]. THC did not accumulate in the blood following 10 —15 mg daily doses. THC concentrations peaked within 1 — 8 h after oral administration, and ranged between 2.1 to 16.9 ng/ml. Rectal administration of 2.5— 5 mg of THC produced maximum plasma concentrations of 1.1— 4.1 ng/ml within 2 — 8 h. The bioavailability of the rectal route was approximately twice that of the oral route due to higher absorption and lower first-pass
metabolism.
Attached is the abstract of the Brenneisen (and Elsohly) paper, and another ElSohly paper [41] below that.
Int J Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1996 Oct;34(10):446-52.
The effect of orally and rectally administered delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol on spasticity: a pilot study with 2 patients.
Brenneisen R1, Egli A, Elsohly MA, Henn V, Spiess Y.
Abstract
Multiple doses of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) capsules (Marinol) and THC hemisuccinate suppositories were administered in 24-hour intervals to 2 patients with organically caused spasticity. After oral doses of 10-15 mg THC, peak plasma levels from 2.1 to 16.9 ng/ml THC and 74.5 to 244.0 ng/ml 11-nor-9-carboxy-delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC-COOH, major THC metabolite) were measured by GC/MS within 1-8 h and 2-8 h, respectively. After rectal doses of 2.5-5 mg THC, peak plasma levels from 1.1 to 4.1 ng/ml THC and 6.1 to 42.0 ng/ml THC-COOH were measured within 2-8 h and 1-8 h, respectively. The bioavailability resulting from the oral formulation was 45-53% relative to the rectal route of administration, due to a lower absorption and higher first-pass metabolism. The effect of THC on spasticity, rigidity, and pain was estimated by objective neurological tests (Ashworth scale, walking ability) and patient self-rating protocols. Oral and rectal THC reduced at a progressive stage of illness the spasticity, rigidity, and pain, resulting in improved active and passive mobility. The relative effectiveness of the oral vs. the rectal formulation was 25-50%. Physiological and psychological parameters were used to monitor psychotropic and somatic side-effects of THC. No differences in the concentration ability, mood, and function of the cardiovascular system could be observed after administration of THC.

One could argue that two patients' blood levels is significant. I just can't go whole hog for this method without more information. This is for a maximum rectal dose of 5 mg THC. We don't know what the picture is like when it comes to hundreds of milligrams of cannabis oil.

In the abstract below, ElSohly et al say that a 2.5 mg dose was administered b.i.d. (twice daily) for 3 days by oral and rectal suppository route. They only write about the cannabinoids' effects on total daily energy intake (an appetite stimulation study). So I don't have the particulars, not even the number of subjects in the study. The don't say in the abstract.
Cannabinoids and appetite stimulation
Richard D. Mattes, ∗, Karl Engelman" , Leslie M. Shaw" , Mahmoud A. ElsohlyDG
Abstract
Appetite stimulation by cannabinoids is highly variable. Four within-subject design studies explored the effects of age, gender, satiety status, route of drug administration, and dose on intake. One study involved a single oral administration of active drug (15 mg males, 10 mg females) or placebo to an age and gender stratified sample of 57 healthy, adult light marijuana users. Eleven subjects received single doses by oral, sublingual, and inhaled routes in a second study. In the third study, 10 subjects ingested a single oral dose in fasted and fed states. A 2.5 mg dose was administered b.i.d. for 3 days by oral and rectal suppository routes in the fourth study. Mean daily energy intake was significantly elevated following chronic dosing by rectal suppository, but not oral capsule, relative to all acute dosing regimens except inhalation. Total daily energy intake was comparable on fed and fasted days, suggesting satiety mechanisms were not impaired by the drug. Subject age, gender, reported "high", and plasma drug level were not significantly associated with drug effects on food intake.

Pharmacology Biochemistry and Behavior
Volume 49, Issue 1, September 1994, Pages 187—195

So where does this leave us? Other than confused? Apparently the studies that would settle this question once and for all haven't been done yet. So I ask you, given that the research field has left this question unanswered, if you had cancer and you knew someone who successfully used suppositories to eliminate cancer from his body, what would you choose as your protocol? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't feel comfortable turning my back on that success. Until we have the types of research that's desperately needed funded, we're still guessing as we go, aren't we?