Warshade's Northern Lights ScrOG - Advanced LED - Hydro

[Warshade]

Re: Warshade's Northern Lights ScrOG - (Advanced LED, BPN, hydro)

6/3/2012 - Update

The reservoir chiller has been partially on hold for a few days, as I am going to have someone else bend the 4 elbows (I already have the SS tubing coiled, just need the elbows), as I am afraid that I will kink it. I have been able to keep res temps around 74-75 by switching out frozen jugs several times a day, and I have also added some tubing for the air pump intake, as it was taking in the hot tent air (88˚f) and pumping that into the root-zone, but now it's getting the central air temp 75˚f. Also, I added some passive ducting to the tent that will siphon some of the AC air and bring those 88˚f temps down to 83˚f, (so far).

The pH has been slowly making its way up to about 6.7pH over the last several days, so I am going to use some pH down for a couple days to get it below 6.0pH and then do a reservoir change after that with some of the beneficial tea (mentioned earlier) added to the BPN (Micro/Grow/Bloom), Cali-Magic & Hygrozyme.

Today:
pH: 6.7
RH: 40%
temp: 83˚f
res temp: 74˚f
solution: ~200ppm

Here are the pics taken from last night:

^ Here you can clearly see the 1st & 2nd set of true leaves did NOT like the pH battle early on in this grow!

...

...and here are a couple shots of the younger soil girl:

 

[Alaskan1]

Re: Warshade's Northern Lights ScrOG - (Advanced LED, BPN, hydro)

Very nice setup.
Just a bit of advice and a few questions. I would not be running any beneficials or hygrozyme at this time with those res temps. Your just asking for root rot. I was running close to the same nutes as you in my hydro system and twice ended up with root rot. I was usimg H202, hygrozyme and Orca.
I have now gotten rid of all that and am using Dutch Masters Zone and run a sterile system. Last thing I worry about now is root rot. I'm just tired of battling it.
Another thing you may want to run is some airstones in your res. Root rot hates air and the roots love it. Will also help bring the res temps down as tad...My temps are now down in the mid 60's 65 to 67.

So how often are you checking and adjusting your PH?

 

[Warshade]

Re: Warshade's Northern Lights ScrOG - (Advanced LED, BPN, hydro)

Very nice setup.
Just a bit of advice and a few questions. I would not be running any beneficials or hygrozyme at this time with those res temps. Your just asking for root rot. I was running close to the same nutes as you in my hydro system and twice ended up with root rot. I was usimg H202, hygrozyme and Orca.
I have now gotten rid of all that and am using Dutch Masters Zone and run a sterile system. Last thing I worry about now is root rot. I'm just tired of battling it.
Another thing you may want to run is some airstones in your res. Root rot hates air and the roots love it. Will also help bring the res temps down as tad...My temps are now down in the mid 60's 65 to 67.

So how often are you checking and adjusting your PH?

Thanks, and I am checking/adjusting pH daily.

For the tea, I was basing it off of this:

When a clear snot forms on roots in a DWC, and the normal course of treatment for root disease doesn't work, you probably have something called brown slime algae, which actually isn't algae at all, but a cyanobacteria. It loves oxygen and doesn't need light to grow. It doesn't care if your res is chilled or not. Safe levels of H202 slows it a bit but doesn't cure it. It can show up for DWC growers for no apparent reason even after years of successful grows. Once it shows up it's often a nightmare to get rid of. It WILL eventually spread to other DWC tubs, although it almost never gains a foothold on older well developed healthy plants/roots.

Several root conditions will cause a slimy build up; doesn't mean you have the brown slime. Common root disease is almost always caused by improper res conditions, and they improve greatly when those conditions are corrected. This isn't true of the slime. When to suspect brown slime algae is when you are doing everything right and still can't get rid of it. People who get this try the normal stuff... More bubbles in the water, cool res temps, and h202 treatments. The slime may appear to be gone at first, but comes back strong in as little as 12-36 hours. It starts out subtle like a clear coating of mucus on the roots with no odor. Plants often still appear healthy for a while, but all root production stops. In a very short time it will cover the entire root base and become thicker and sometimes turns yellow. Eventually it strangles the roots which causes pythium to set in, and at that point turns brown and finally has an odor.

The treatment is to clean up and sterilize the root base, and then populate the water with beneficial microbes. Simply running a continuous sterilizing agent such as SM-90, Zone, ect will almost certainly end with the slime as the winner. Some people have had luck running bleach or physan 20 continuously in the water, but most do not want there plants soaking in these particular chemicals. Making a microbe tea is cheap and easy, and IMO the proper way to fight this slime in a perpetual DWC garden.

Clean up the root base as well as possible. Best thing to do, if you can, is hold the plant over the sink and use the sprayer to vigorously rinse the roots, trying to get all the dead roots and gunk to slough off. It's OK to spray 3% h2o2 solution directly onto the roots at this point. It's also okay to give the dying roots a slight tug to see if they come off. Now let the roots soak in a strong h202 solution, or a mixture of whatever sterilizing agent you have. Physan 20 works great. This is a good time to sterilize any equipment and give the res a good scrub. After a few hours, no more than 12, of soaking in the solution rinse the roots really really well again, prepare a fresh res, and inoculate the res with beneficial microbes. Wait another 12 hours before adding nutes.

Once the slime is gone be sure to practice proper res maintenance, which includes keeping any type of organic material out of the res. Trying to sterilize the res water is often a losing battle. In fact, since most hydro sterilizers fail to kill this stuff, when you sterilize the water you are removing competing microbes and opening the field to slime. There are people who use RO filters and then run their water through a UV sterilizer and still end up with the slime. The answer always seems to be beneficial microbes.

Below is my previous introduction to preparing and applying a microbe tea.


In DWC the roots sit in water constantly putting them at huge risk for disease. Some people have great luck using nothing at all. Others find sterilizing products keep their roots white, but a few of us have found that even with proper res maintenance and doing everything right, we still get a slimy build up on the roots. This is when a microbe tea can really make a difference by robbing the slime of housing, food, and actually attacking it.

By making a microbe tea with a diverse selection of organisms you will have a super tonic for you res that will ward off nasty gunk and build up while at the same time keeping your roots stimulated and growing. Best of all it can be made for just pennies per batch.

Ok so we wont be starting from scratch. You have to buy a few products. But instead of using the products directly in the res, you will be breeding them in a tea. This way, you can use a fraction of the regular dose and make your products last much longer. Plus, you will end up with a freshly active tea that is more diverse than anything you can buy on the market.

Aquashield ($12) The product composition consists of: Bacillus subtilis, Paenibacillus polymxa, Bacillus circulans, and Bacillus amyloliquefaciens. This gives you a base population of beneficial bacteria. (Aquashield can be replaced by any inoculation that contains bacillus bacteria.)

ZHO Powder ($10) The product composition consists of: Glomus intradices, Glomus aggregatum, Glomus etunicatum, Glomus mosseae, Trichoderma harzianum, and Trichoderma koningii. This gives you a base populartion of beneficial fungi. (ZHO can be replaced by any inoculation that contains myco fungi)

Ancient Forest EWC ($14) - Soil amendment provides a high diversity of microorganisms, including more than 35,000 species of bacteria and over 5,000 species of fungi. (AF can be replaced by any earth worm casting)

EDIT* Mycogrow soluble is the cheapest and most diverse inoculant we have found. It can replace everything here except the ancient forest.


The recipe is really simple. Start with non-chlorinated water. I make 2 gallons at a time, but you can easily adjust the additives for whatever amount you wish to make. Now put the water into a bucket and throw in a couple air stones. The more air the better. You want the water to be almost turbulent from the bubbles. Now, add 15-30ml of aquashield and about 1/4-1/2 scoop of the ZHO powder. You will be breeding these into the billions so it doesn't really matter how much you start with, just don't overdo it. Now take an old sock or pantyhose and fill it with about 2 handfuls of EWC or Ancient Forest. Tie off the sock and place it in the water above an air stone, or better yet, feed an air stone down into the sock itself. If you want, you can just throw the EWC directly into the water and strain it out later with cheesecloth or even an aquarium net. Next, add about a tablespoon of molasses to wake up the microbes and give them something to eat. We will only be feeding the microbes in this tea; never add food for the microbes to the res itself. It's okay if the bennies in the res starve. You will be replacing them every few days. Now let the tea bubble at room tempeture for 48 hours. It can be used after 24, but will be more active and diverse at 48. If you use EWC you will probably notice a foam eventually, this is normal. After 48 hours you can store the tea in the fridge where it will stay fresh for about 10 days. Once it starts to go bad it will develop an odor. If you ever detect an odor from your tea, throw it out and make a new batch. Fresh tea can have a range of smells from earthy to mossy to shroomy. Bad tea smells like gym socks, fecal matter, or decay.

Initially, add about 1 cup to your res for every gallon of water, and then add 1 cup total every 3 days after. If you can, pour a little over the base of the stalk to inoculate the root crown. Your water might get a little cloudy but your roots will stay white and stimulated. When you use tea and practice proper res maintenance you can feel confident your roots will be healthy. By multiplying the microbes this way your products should last a great deal longer. Once you have eradicated slime and simply want protection from future outbreaks, adjust the tea dosage to 1 cup per 10 gallons about once per week.

If you are interested in why the tea works, or what products you may use for substitution, continue reading the rest of the thread. It is a journey I took with others to learn a great more about the tea. If you want to see how I use this tea in a cloner, jump to here.

***In an attempt to address frequent issues which bloat the thread

You can substitute just about any product you want. Any EWC will give you a good base of microbes. Any product or combo of products which contain mycos, bacillus, and trichoderma will do the trick. Don't worry about matching my exact ingredients. The exception is AN microbe products. Stay away from AN microbe products!


If you notice a dark sort of slime form after you treat with tea, stay the course. As long as you see new shoots growing you are on your way to recovery. The after-slime is harmless and will not expand or stall roots. New root tips are what you want to see.

Do not use tea with h202, sm-90, Zone or any type of sterilizing product. Do not filter tea beyond 400 microns.

If you run a system with sprayers or pumps, you may want to make your tea with mycogrow hydro mix only. (as opposed to mycogrow soluble) It contains only mycos which shouldn't cause clogging. However, no one has reported clogging from using regular tea. You can also try aquashield by itself without brewing. High pressure nozzles will kill most microbes, medium pressure and simple sprayers are fine.


Take care of impropoer res conditions FIRST. Even the tea will not save you from disease if you do not have enough oxygen or proper temperatures. Res water should be no higher than 75f with bennies. Air pump should be at least 1wt per gallon. Light proof your buckets!

If this solution works for you please post in the thread and tell us your story.

I'm happy to answer questions in the thread. You will get a faster reply here than messaging me. Remember, all advice I give is intended for a synthetic DWC grow.

Some FAQ's

Can I run a perpetual batch of tea?

No. The key to fighting slime is a diverse microbe population. No matter what you do to your brew, diversity will peak and begin to decline around the 48 hour mark.

Can I feed the bennies in my res instead of letting them die and replacing them?

No, you would be feeding the slime as well. Some bennies will live on in your roots, most will die. It is simple to replace them which we do every three days while fighting slime, and about once a week after the slime is gone.

Will the chlorine/chloramine in my tap water kill off my bennies?

It is best to use pure water to brew the tea, however adding tap water directly to your buckets in small amounts to top off will not kill enough bennies to matter. I add as much as a gallon of un-aged tap water to my 5 gallon res with no ill effects. If you are worried, simply add a little tea a few hours after watering.

Can I add too much tea?

As long as your tea is brewed properly it is really hard to add too much.

I added tea, maintain proper res conditions, and still have slime!

First be sure you are not simply seeing after-slime. (see above) If it is aggressive slime, then you are probably adding something organic directly to the res. Check each and every thing you put in your mix, and be sure foliar sprays do not drip into the res.

You are not teaching us how to breed microbes, only multiply them.

Correct.

 

[Alaskan1]

Re: Warshade's Northern Lights ScrOG - (Advanced LED, BPN, hydro)

As I understand it if you run a sterile system the bad bacteria has no chance to even start. The "Zone" will kill it upon entering the system.
I'm not running the Zone as a treatment but as a constant. It gets replaced every res change just like my nutes.

When you adjust your PH what are you getting it down to? 5.6 to 5.8 is a good base to get it to

 

[Warshade]

Re: Warshade's Northern Lights ScrOG - (Advanced LED, BPN, hydro)

As I understand it if you run a sterile system the bad bacteria has no chance to even start. The "Zone" will kill it upon entering the system.
I'm not running the Zone as a treatment but as a constant. It gets replaced every res change just like my nutes.

When you adjust your PH what are you getting it down to? 5.6 to 5.8 is a good base to get it to

I start my solution @ mid to low 5's, then let it work up to the mid to low 6's on its own, then I adjust down .5 a day until it's close to the starting mark...then res change again (about 10 days). Though, that being said, I have had some pH issue in the beginning of this grow, (and it still is going up slightly faster than I think it should...but hey, I'm new, lol.)

 

[Alaskan1]

Re: Warshade's Northern Lights ScrOG - (Advanced LED, BPN, hydro)

I start my solution @ mid to low 5's, then let it work up to the mid to low 6's on its own, then I adjust down .5 a day until it's close to the starting mark...then res change again (about 10 days). Though, that being said, I have had some pH issue in the beginning of this grow, (and it still is going up slightly faster than I think it should...but hey, I'm new, lol.)

The cleaner you have the hydroton the less of a PH issue you will have. I made the mistake of not cleaning the hydroton very well my first grow and was always battling PH rises. Now that I clean it very well that has been less of an issue. No matter how high your PH gets to (example 6.7) you should get it back down between 5.5 and 5.8
I am changing my res and nutes every 7 days

 

[Warshade]

Re: Warshade's Northern Lights ScrOG - (Advanced LED, BPN, hydro)

The cleaner you have the hydroton the less of a PH issue you will have. I made the mistake of not cleaning the hydroton very well my first grow and was always battling PH rises. Now that I clean it very well that has been less of an issue. No matter how high your PH gets to (example 6.7) you should get it back down between 5.5 and 5.8
I am changing my res and nutes every 7 days

I THOUGHT I thoroughly cleaned the hydroton in the beginning, but I guess not thorough enough, lol, (though I did wash them several times until I no longer saw any sediment coming from them, and then I let them soak in RO water for 48 hours prior to putting it in my system).

Question: I was under the understanding that you are not supposed to adjust the pH more than .5 in a day. Am I wrong in this understanding?

 

[Nullster]

Any update on your grow Warshade?

 

[Warshade]

Any update on your grow Warshade?

Well, I have been really busy lately, (and I am in need of a new memory card so I can take some pics, lol), but the girls have been flowering for a few weeks now and looking much better. I will get a more appropriate update here soon enough, (hopefully, lol).

 

[Alaskan1]

Re: Warshade's Northern Lights ScrOG - (Advanced LED, BPN, hydro)

I THOUGHT I thoroughly cleaned the hydroton in the beginning, but I guess not thorough enough, lol, (though I did wash them several times until I no longer saw any sediment coming from them, and then I let them soak in RO water for 48 hours prior to putting it in my system).

Question: I was under the understanding that you are not supposed to adjust the pH more than .5 in a day. Am I wrong in this understanding?

I apologize for not answering the question............yes, you can adjust more then .5 per day. Adjust it down to where it needs to be no matter how high it gets.

 

[Alaskan1]

Well, I have been really busy lately, (and I am in need of a new memory card so I can take some pics, lol), but the girls have been flowering for a few weeks now and looking much better. I will get a more appropriate update here soon enough, (hopefully, lol).

Right on, looking forward to that update.

 

[bunches]

I have an Oxyponics 6 setup I'm waiting for clones and other things to fall into place. In the meantime, I'm making sure I know how to even use the thing.

How does one flush drain this system? I have a hose connected to the drain on the control bucket, but nary a drop comes out. Do you set a pump inside the res and drain that way?

 

[Warshade]

I have an Oxyponics 6 setup I'm waiting for clones and other things to fall into place. In the meantime, I'm making sure I know how to even use the thing.

How does one flush drain this system? I have a hose connected to the drain on the control bucket, but nary a drop comes out. Do you set a pump inside the res and drain that way?

Yeah, when I perform a res change, I just use an extra 400gph pump and drop it in the res and pump into buckets, (because I have the system upstairs...) Not ideal, but depending on how you have your room setup, you can pump it however you like.

 

[bunches]

Thanks for the response, Warshade.
I'll connect the pump to a long hose to run out of the room. (maybe you can run a hose to your bathroom or out a window)

Thanks again for the response.

 

[Truth Seeker]

How did this grow turn out?

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