1gal organic grow with worm tea & KNF inputs only?

[Azimuth]

I'm looking to do an all organic grow and am limited to 1 gal pots as I grow in a cabinet with a small and defined footprint. Several of the super soil-type, water only growers have commented that 1 gal pots won't have enough nutrients in the volume to make it to end of flower.

I don't mind adding some nutes along the way, and wondered if anyone has had experience (and success) using small pots with just adding worm tea and the fermented plant juices of KNF (Korean Natural Farming) in place of all the other amendments usually added to the base mix.

My base mix is 11 Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss, Perlite, Compost (1/3 each worm castings/biochar, compost, and 2 yr old leaf mold).

Azi

 

[Pat Puffer]

Hello, Azimuth. This is an intriguing notion. Since the pots are so small, nutes wont hold up. Top dressing is an option, but Worm Tea can provide a ton of benefits.

Using the KNF juices should be great to supplement the needed nutes. I am at the incipient stages of getting a full grasp on this method and I wish I could comment more on it.

I have seen members produce great plants in a small pot @VetSmoke65 (? Cant remember exact name, sorry Vet) has done a few monsters in small pots and he fed frequently.

Other members here who I know of the top of my head have experience at the ferments and extracts are @NuttyProfessor @Emilya

The worm tea will keep your soil active and the KNF ferments will keep the soil fed. I think it's a splendid idea.

Have you grown in 1 gal pots start to harvest before? Have you kept root bound symptoms at bay? I definitely want to watch this.

 

[Emilya Green]

It can be done, but not easily, and certainly a huge challenge for a new grower. The problem is the massive amounts of calcium, iron, potassium and phosphorus that are need by these plants while in bloom and that one gallon of soil just cant be preloaded with all of that. So you absolutely must top feed, and it is going to take one heck of an active fermentation process to get that much nutrient in there with KNF, but again, it can be done, just not easily. As long as the plant didn't get too big and exceed the ability to feed it, I don't see why it couldn't work, as long as all of your inputs are perfect and you resolve to feeding 2 or even 3 times a day.

 

[Azimuth]

Hello, Azimuth. This is an intriguing notion. Since the pots are so small, nutes wont hold up. Top dressing is an option, but Worm Tea can provide a ton of benefits.

Using the KNF juices should be great to supplement the needed nutes. I am at the incipient stages of getting a full grasp on this method and I wish I could comment more on it.

I have seen members produce great plants in a small pot @VetSmoke65 (? Cant remember exact name, sorry Vet) has done a few monsters in small pots and he fed frequently.

Other members here who I know of the top of my head have experience at the ferments and extracts are @NuttyProfessor @Emilya

The worm tea will keep your soil active and the KNF ferments will keep the soil fed. I think it's a splendid idea.

Have you grown in 1 gal pots start to harvest before? Have you kept root bound symptoms at bay? I definitely want to watch this.

Hi Patient,

It's been said that you can't grow to finish on just worm castings tea alone and I can confirm that that's mostly true. Not great yields at least.

So, I've been looking for a way to improve things within the confines of my small space.

I've become quite a proficient over-waterer and so have never have had the root bound problem of which you ask. I do aspire to the problem, however.

And, after reading @Emilya's thread on watering, I'm getting better.

If you are looking for some background on KNF, there is some good info around.

@Emilya has some good threads on the topic here at 420Mag, the University of Hawaii has write-ups on many of the major components on-line, there are some good UTube vids by Chris Trump and a guy named Drake, and I've recently read a book called "The Regenerative Grower's Guide to Garden Amendments."

Given Emilya's comments above, I'll probably be able to improve my results but it sounds like it won't be all that easy.

It may end up being a moot point, however, as I've been reading The Rev's book on his TLO (True Living Organics) process and I just got to the part about how he does his containers. Turns out he flowers in 2 Gal cloth pots which have about the same footprint as my 1 Gal's.

So, I may just redo my thinking and go with a proven recipe. Although I'll probably try the KNF approach first since I'm all geared up for that and have just reached the 6mo mark on the Fish Amino Acid batch I started last summer.

The book I mentioned above has some tables in the back comparing the nutrient analysis of various types of extract on different plants and fish. The fish seem to have multiples of any of the various nutrients that come from plants.

Kind of a fascinating read, if you're into that kind of thing.

 

[Pat Puffer]

@StoneOtter Just turned me on to Chris Trump and my interest is even more stoked over the whole idea. Thank you.

 

[Azimuth]

It can be done, but not easily, and certainly a huge challenge for a new grower. The problem is the massive amounts of calcium, iron, potassium and phosphorus that are need by these plants while in bloom and that one gallon of soil just cant be preloaded with all of that. So you absolutely must top feed, and it is going to take one heck of an active fermentation process to get that much nutrient in there with KNF, but again, it can be done, just not easily. As long as the plant didn't get too big and exceed the ability to feed it, I don't see why it couldn't work, as long as all of your inputs are perfect and you resolve to feeding 2 or even 3 times a day.

Thanks, Emilya.

I was hoping it would be a reasonable alternative but sounds like you're saying that, although it could work with my constraints, it still will be a challenge especially for someone without a ton of experience.

Since I'm still trying to figure out the watering thing (getting much better thanks to your thread on the subject) that pretty much defines me.

As I mentioned to @Patient Puffer, I'm reading The Rev's book on TLO that you steered me to in another thread and will probably end up going that route.

 

[Azimuth]

@StoneOtter Just turned me on to Chris Trump and my interest is even more stoked over the whole idea. Thank you.

Yeah, his series of videos is pretty good. He walks you through how to do each of the ferments and gives some background along the way.

He apparently studied under Master Cho (I think that's right) the guy who started the whole movement in Korea, and Chris now teaches others through seminars he gives.

You can learn all you need to to be proficient in the method from his on-line stuff although I'm sure there's much more detail behind what's needed where and when if one were to study the method in more detail.

 

[Azimuth]

Actually, now that I think about it, it may have been @Amy Gardner or @StoneOtter that gave me the TLO book reco, so apologies in advance if I did not give proper credit.

In any event, that book provides a good blueprint to follow to build a living soil in a pretty small container. I'm excited to know there are solutions to my growing challenges that can can be immediately implemented. Since I don't have all the amendments yet, and the soil has to "cook" for a while, I'll start with the KNF nutrients and probably amble on over the TLO approach as things progress.

I read a blog from the BuildASoil guy who questioned some of the specific TLO inputs and suggested there were better alternatives for some of them, but I don't know enough about the subject matter to properly judge the differences.

 

[Azimuth]

It can be done, but not easily, and certainly a huge challenge for a new grower. The problem is the massive amounts of calcium, iron, potassium and phosphorus that are need by these plants while in bloom and that one gallon of soil just cant be preloaded with all of that. So you absolutely must top feed, and it is going to take one heck of an active fermentation process to get that much nutrient in there with KNF, but again, it can be done, just not easily. As long as the plant didn't get too big and exceed the ability to feed it, I don't see why it couldn't work, as long as all of your inputs are perfect and you resolve to feeding 2 or even 3 times a day.

So, here are the table entries from the book "The Regenerative Grower's Guide to Garden Amendments" using fermented plant extracts from some of the different plants for the inputs @Emilya mentions above in ppm: (with apologies for the formatting...)


,,,,,,,,,,Dandelion,,,,,,,Nettle,,,,,,,Comfrey,,,,,,,,,Fish

Ca ,,,,,,,,,,143,,,,,,,,,,861,,,,,,,,,31.52,,,,,,,,,,718.8

Fe,,,,,,,,,, 3.17,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,1.57,,,,,,,,,,,,,,2.06,,,,,,,,,,,,2.57

K,,,,,,,,,,,,,,485,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,376,,,,,,,,,,,,,,1025,,,,,,,,,,1013

P,,,,,,,,,,,,,,128,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,35.34,,,,,,,,,,,,270.8,,,,,,,,,836.8


Carrot tops are also listed very highly but amounts are given for a water extraction so not really comparable. But you can see from the above that the fermented fish has among the highest levels for each item across the board.

I guess the next question is, are the fish nutrient levels too high for the plants? @bobrown14 mentioned in another thread that he had burned his outdoor plants using fish fertilizer, although the fermented version is supposed to be better and more immediately plant available than other forms. Perhaps being readily available could be a case of too much of a good thing all at once. Dunno.

 

[Amy Gardner]

may have been @Amy Gardner

Also, I use fish fertiliser.

Start low-dose and work up. If it’s well brewed/fermented or however you’re doing it, then fish is great! Just expect to have to work it out a little - depending on what you have.

I have also use seaweed and nettle and horsetail, all to make teas/plant juices.

Stinging nettle is a very near complete food. I’ve made FPJ from it that was excellent. ANd then @bobrown14 made it even better by telling me I could just brew some up fresh into boiling water on the stove and use that (once cooled down of course). And drink some while you’re at it! So if you have access to stinging nettle, that’s another great source.

 

[StoneOtter]

Best luck Azi! As I mature I'm considering smaller pots all the time. From 10 gal to 7 now. Won't be long before the next move down. I'm wondering what the smallest LOS container I'll end up using. Top dressing with Geoflora Organic Dry Nutrient was my go to once in a 1 gal in The Rev's TLO soil. I had good luck and it remained a LOS grow. When I say good luck I mean the plant thrived. I wasn't able to keep my eye on it and grow a perfect plant, it was a seed project that did that and a bonus 3/4 oz of very good bud. I bet someone taking more care could do better.

 

[Azimuth]

Also, I use fish fertiliser.

Start low-dose and work up. If it’s well brewed/fermented or however you’re doing it, then fish is great! Just expect to have to work it out a little - depending on what you have.

I have a good friend who runs a fishing charter boat and he gave me some fresh caught mackerel which I chopped up and mixed with brown sugar in a few half gal canning jars almost exactly 6 mo ago. It was my first attempt at fermenting fish and I didn't leave enough head space in each jar, so it didn't quite finish properly, but still seems to be some pretty good stuff.

The standard application rate is 1:1000 but I did 1/4 tsp to a quart or about 1:750 about 15 days ago when I watered and just over the past couple of days I seem to be seeing some nice greening up of the plants.

The Rev talks about a couple of week lag time before you'll see any effects of changes you make so that seems right on schedule.

I have also use seaweed and nettle and horsetail, all to make teas/plant juices.

I also fermented some seaweed and have been using that but have yet to try the others. I have some horsetail fern on my property, but not sure about the nettle.

Who'd have thought I'd be hoping for weeds on my property this spring?!

I'm actually going to cultivate some dandelion in my garden this year and make separate ferments with each of the roots, leaves and flowers. Hoping for comfrey as well. In fact I may look in some of my plant & seed catalogs for nettle and comfrey if I'm not fortunate to already have some growing wild.

I understand for comfrey it is important to grow a sterile variety so you don't get volunteers all over the place. Apparently, once it's established in a particular spot it's damn near impossible to get rid of.

 

[Azimuth]

Best luck Azi! As I mature I'm considering smaller pots all the time. From 10 gal to 7 now. Won't be long before the next move down. I'm wondering what the smallest LOS container I'll end up using. Top dressing with Geoflora Organic Dry Nutrient was my go to once in a 1 gal in The Rev's TLO soil. I had good luck and it remained a LOS grow. When I say good luck I mean the plant thrived. I wasn't able to keep my eye on it and grow a perfect plant, it was a seed project that did that and a bonus 3/4 oz of very good bud. I bet someone taking more care could do better.

Thanks, StoneO!

I was pretty stoked to finally come across the fact that he uses the 2 gal cloth pots. He also uses 2 gal self watering pots, and that's what I have, just the next size down, the 1 gal. Talk about burying the lead! You'd think he could've mentioned that before the second to last chapter! Although most people grow in larger containers than I do so may not have occured to him.

The BuildASoil guy made some good points in his blog about finding substitutes for things like blood meal and feather meal since those come from sources that might/probably use antibiotics and growth hormones in the animals feed, and some of the guanos for unsustainability reasons, but as I said, I don't know enough yet to know what would be good substitutes.

I think I'll dig around a bit on that site and see what I come up with.

But, looks like this is all coming together!

Now, if I can just get a handle on the whole propagation thing...

 

[Azimuth]

Stinging nettle is a very near complete food. I’ve made FPJ from it that was excellent. ANd then @bobrown14 made it even better by telling me I could just brew some up fresh into boiling water on the stove and use that (once cooled down of course). And drink some while you’re at it! So if you have access to stinging nettle, that’s another great source.

The Regenerative Grower's Guide has a whole chapter on doing water ferments (as opposed to the brown sugar approach) which is supposed to also be very good, just quite a bit odiferous. Although the author suggests the smell can be knocked down quite a bit by using some fresh, aged leaf mold from the forest as a sort of cap on the bucket. Uses the same IMO principles that that are found in the rest of the KNF approach.

 

[Azimuth]

Top dressing with Geoflora Organic Dry Nutrient was my go to once in a 1 gal in The Rev's TLO soil. I had good luck and it remained a LOS grow. When I say good luck I mean the plant thrived.

Did you use it for both veg and flower or did you find you only needed it in flower once the plant grew out?

 

[Azimuth]

The BuildASoil guy made some good points in his blog about finding substitutes for things like blood meal and feather meal since those come from sources that might/probably use antibiotics and growth hormones in the animals feed, and some of the guanos for unsustainability reasons, but as I said, I don't know enough yet to know what would be good substitutes.

Here's the link to the article if anyone had thoughts on substitutes for the items in question:

Why TLO? Dissecting the Rev Mix line by line – BuildASoil

Dissecting the Rev Soil Mix Step by Step: After discussing organic growing indoors for so long, you start to come across a few things over and over again. I have a book on the shelf called TLO by the Rev. If you are reading this, then I’m guessing you have either read the book or have read his...

buildasoil.com

 

[Amy Gardner]

@Azimuth it occurs to me that you will be interested, maybe, in this thread (still a work in progress-but all needed info is linked to).

The link is actually in my signature, but I realise that if folks don’t know that the original internet source for KNF was called The Unconventional Gardener then they won’t know what that link is - I’m thinking I should rename the link.

The Regenerative Grower's Guide has a whole chapter on doing water ferments (as opposed to the brown sugar approach) which is supposed to also be very good, just quite a bit odiferous. Although the author suggests the smell can be knocked down quite a bit by using some fresh, aged leaf mold from the forest as a sort of cap on the bucket. Uses the same IMO principles that that are found in the rest of the KNF approach.

All my ferments have been water ones.

I can highly recommend a LABs. It will accelerate teas/FPJs and reduce odour.

it’s included in that KNF archive I just linked you to, that version is long and wordy, so I have a picture tutorial my DIY for it here - if you’re interested.

 

[Azimuth]

@Azimuth it occurs to me that you will be interested, maybe, in this thread (still a work in progress-but all needed info is linked to).

The link is actually in my signature, but I realise that if folks don’t know that the original internet source for KNF was called The Unconventional Gardener then they won’t know what that link is - I’m thinking I should rename the link.

Thanks. Will have a look.

 

[Amy Gardner]

There’s been so much synchronicity around me lately. This is just another one - the question of labs and/or Korean natural farming has come up four times in the last week around here.

One of the beauties of it for me is that you don’t have to get into all of it. I’ve never made juices out of bananas or fruits or other things. I’ve used seaweed comfrey stinging nettle horse tail and LABs, and sometimes fish. And that, plus mineral amendments in the soil, has been more than sufficient for all kinds of gardens.

 

[VetSmoke85]

@VetSmoke65

You were close This is something I would like to do too but have lots of reading first. @Van Stank just started an experiment in a 1gal pot using his soil mix.