ClosetCase420's - RDWC - 600W MH/HPS - Wonder Woman - Grow Journal - 2015

[Papageno]

Hey I just noticed it looks like you have the height adjustment connected to the res not the light. And it also looks like the SCROG is not connected to the res. So Whats the plan for the SCROG?

I set the SCROG height base off my res height and leave them fixed and adjust the light. Once you start the SCROG the distance "must" be fixed.

The SCROG does not need to be connected to the res but if the res height is adjustable then the SCROG has to go with it somehow so commonly it gets attached to the res.

 

[closetcase420]

I have two sets of cables in the closet.
One set is attached to the grow light and the other set is attached to the lid.
It allowed me to suspend the lld up while working on the tank early on.

The SCROG is mounted to the cabinet walls 9 1/2 inches above the net pots.
The tank is always going to be at the same height so no need to mount the SCROG to the tank itself.

My plan for the SCROG is or at least was (if you tell me otherwise) to let the plants grow up about 2-3 inches above the netting at which time I'd bend them back below the netting. I'd keep tucking every few days until about 2 weeks into flower which i'd let them start growing upwards. The one thing I was going back and forth on was how to train the plants. Originally I was thinking about topping the girl in the middle but now I see how large she is growing without doing anything. What do you suggest. I will seriously following your step by step if my plan is no good.

 

[Papageno]

LOL hahahaha

That all sounds good to me but I think again you have a bunch of plants in there and as soon as you start training then you are going to run out of space. Topping that middle one might help let the others catch up. But I am still mostly concerned about it being too cramped. And that doesn't help that problem at all.

Lets be more concerned with quality not quantity on your first run here. Like I said before that space is great for 1 plant SCROG'D to death. It is Good for 2 plants SCROG'd well. But with the number of plants you have going, since you really have nowhere to separate them, they are just going to go up and go fast.

With pots that close it is more like SOG setup.

But none of this is a problem. I did the same thing on my first tub and it worked great but I had a big space to SCROG it into so having pots close together didn't matter. I think we will have issues getting light down to the bottoms...that is until we know which ones are male and yank them and have space

That is the worst part about your setup is planting non Fems or clones known to be female you end up SCROGing a male and then when you yank it you have all this space that the Females could have used. Don't worry though since we are over cramped even if we yank 3 of them that just means the last 2 will be awesome.

So with all that in mind... We know we are not going to get the absolute heaviest results from this SCROG. So lets focus doing it High Quality not quantity for this run...lets get it done fast and take our learning to the next one ASAP. So that gets me back to what I was saying before. Lets SCROG only so much to get the tops even and then lets start bloom. The plant will double, may triple, in size so don't try to fill it out at the veg state. Since it is already cramped we want to get this into bloom ASAP. But not so young that there are no branches.

So when the middle one gets tall enough that she can start to be trained over get it going. I think it is tall enough already to start a daily little help by hand...but not too hard. In the few days leading up to getting it into the SCROG go out there and gently bend it over. The main stalk is very hard to train as compared to the rest. So very gently give it a little bit by hand and try to get it going in that direction so it easily makes it. All the rest of a plant is fine to do exactly as you stated but the main stem ...man that sucker is thick and hard to bend so it gets extra attention.

Now the 4 exterior ones I would train Counterclockwise around the edge of the SCROG. The middle one I would take the main stem and train it to about 5 o'clock and then counter clockwise with the rest. The rest of the middle plant can fill out the middle of the SCROG. As soon as the 2 smaller ones get caught up to the SCROG you may be out of space already and want to flip to bloom.

All that said let look at where we are when we get there.

 

[Papageno]

Hey by the way since you did such a good job documenting dates with res measurements I have been sending people this way to read through your journal. I hope you don't mind...and maybe you could do it again sometime?

 

[closetcase420]

I think we will have issues getting light down to the bottoms...that is until we know which ones are male and yank them and have space

The Wonder Woman seeds I'm growing are feminized seeds, no males.

So when the middle one gets tall enough that she can start to be trained over get it going. I think it is tall enough already to start a daily little help by hand...but not too hard. In the few days leading up to getting it into the SCROG go out there and gently bend it over. The main stalk is very hard to train as compared to the rest. So very gently give it a little bit by hand and try to get it going in that direction so it easily makes it. All the rest of a plant is fine to do exactly as you stated but the main stem ...man that sucker is thick and hard to bend so it gets extra attention.

Now the 4 exterior ones I would train Counterclockwise around the edge of the SCROG. The middle one I would take the main stem and train it to about 5 o'clock and then counter clockwise with the rest. The rest of the middle plant can fill out the middle of the SCROG. As soon as the 2 smaller ones get caught up to the SCROG you may be out of space already and want to flip to bloom.

All that said let look at where we are when we get there.

I understand.
I will use the SCROG to train the middle plant to grow sideways while the other plants are catching up in height.
Once all the plants have reached the SCROG we'll likely switch to flowering since the plants will continue to grow and fill the SCROG into flowering.
Right?

Hey by the way since you did such a good job documenting dates with res measurements I have been sending people this way to read through your journal. I hope you don't mind...and maybe you could do it again sometime?

You mean the dry erase that I've been recording my readings on or just the every other day posts with my numbers and pictures?

 

[Papageno]

yup, yup and yup...good stuff.

I was trying to help some guy understand his nute burn situation and he couldn't tell me anything about his res. So I sent him here...He thought it was worth his time.

 

[rhetorrikz]

Great informative journal good job CC and thankyou VI for sharing your knowledge. .. i liked the dry erase it allows us to see what the plants are doing and how they react over a period

 

[closetcase420]

Day 32

PH and PPM have been stable for the most part.

Last night when I took a reading the PH was down to 4.8
I added back about 1 gallon of non PH balanced CalMag water.
This morning the res is reading 5.8 so everything appears to be ok.
Why do you think it dropped so low?

Pictures are actually from yesterday. Fell asleep before I could post them

Current

PH 5.8
PPM 516

 

[Papageno]

One thing to note is I think you have gone more than 4 weeks without a res change right? So that is pretty darn good for a first run. You may have some issues starting to build up. But I don't think so just yet.

In any case it could be a couple of things and without the last say 3 days of data I can't be certain. The real key to answering this is the water level.

The worst case (and I don't think this is yours) is a static water level and static PPM with pH dropping. That needs a res change.

It sounds like your water is dropping and your PPM is constant and the pH is dropping. That could be standard nute uptake. The plant is taking on equal parts water and nutes and that is the best thing. The pH is dropping possibly due to the fact that it needs more nutes at this point. I think if you raise you PPMs a bit then the plant will be able to get at them easier.

Here is where is gets a bit complicated so go smoke a bowl...

The roots have a certain amount of nutes in them. So long as they are needed and less concentrated than the res they will just keep taking them in. When the levels of the nutes in the roots gets above the res it can't absorb the nutes in the res anymore and has to do some funky things. If the nute levels in the roots are higher than the res then they will leach back and can cause some problems but nothing critically bad. You just need to start feeding them...and by the way they look ready to start the preteens.

But anyway after you added the water last night did you take a reading and what was that? If you dumped in a bunch of water and it went up to like 6.5 and the next day it is at 5.8 then it is still dropping you just missed the signal.

One cause could be bacteria...you have had a warm vat of nutrient rich water sitting around for a month now...

Another could be that there is some roots that have died off for one of multiple reasons and could just be due to strangulation from others. unlikely. How do the roots look?

Another is not enough oxygen in the water. what size air pump are you using and how much water is in the res at full? What kind of air stones are we using.


My bet is there is nothing wrong. I bet you need to start considering upping the nutes to the 1/2 dose level (I assume you were at 1/4). And you can't have too much air in there. If you are not using bennies consider dumping in some H2O2.

If it were me...I'd say you are at the point where you should dump in some Voodoo juice or some other form of good bacteria, some enzyme treatment (I like Hygrozyme but that stuff is spendy..but you get what you pay for) and I would put in some more nutes.

The way I like to do it, to keep it slow and easy on the plant, is...

My top off bucket I would put to the new concentration for this week in the scheduale. Add it to the res so the diluted values is in-between.

So for example if your top off is a 5 gal bucket then put in enough of this stuff for the 5 gallons for the current week on the schedule. DO NOT put in enough to raise the whole res to this weeks level!!! This week we are now to the 1/2 nute level. So make a top off with your Silica/potash, base nutes at 1/2, measure that (lets say it is 1000ppm) then you add that to the res at 512 and you end up at like 650. Then dump in the enzyme and bacteria at strength for the whole res right into the res and the nute uptake will take off. In a week or 2 we will be ready for bloom. By then the good bacteria will be dead and we may want to do a mid grow pre bloom res change..or maybe not.


I think you have still no problems...just hungry girls.

 

[Papageno]

I just want to add...you do not have an optimized environment. It is really really good and you are doing fantastic but you probably would burn your plants going to full strength because you don't have enough fan leaves for that.

So as you top off at 1/2 strength nutes and keep doing so over the next few days do not increase beyond that just keep bringing it up slowly. As long as the res has higher concentration of nutes than the roots they will not reverse leach. So you just keep upping it slowly and the plants will keep taking it on and the problem will go away.

If you get to the point where your res reads similar to your 1/2 strength top off and this happens again then you know what to do.


But you have done an excellent job of not burning them so far...lets not get carried away. They look beautiful...so the word of the week is what again? "paaaaaaaatience"

 

[closetcase420]

It was actually 11/20 when I did the res change. So it's been two weeks today.

In that time I've refilled the tank 3 times.

The first time was maybe 2 gallons, the second and third times were both about a gallon.

So at this time I'd say I've replaced about 3 gallons out of a 15 gallon tank (20%).

I was planning on waiting another week before doing a res change again. Since I just filled up the tub last night it'll be a day or two before I have to add any more water. I mix my refill in a 5 gallon jug. When I do I'll add 1/2 strength nutrients based on 5 gallons.

You mentioned h202 which I actually have but have never used. Should I? I'm sure I have more than enough oxygen in the tank. I'm running a commercial airpump with 6 giant air stones.

Also you mentioned VooDoo juice, you mean Advanced Nutrients? I don't have anything from that line.
What do you think about Orca?
Amazon: Plant Revolution Orca Premium Liquid Mycorrhizae 16 Ounce

Lastly.. Here is the up-to-date white board with daily PH/PPM levels.

It's normal for them to start around 5.9 or 6.0 and work their way down before I refill the tank with non ph balanced water bringing it back up where it should be. I was just concerned at the fact how fast it went from 5.6 at the end of the night to 4.8 the next morning.

The +1 gallon is telling you I added 1 gallon of CalMag, Silica Blast water which read 7.8/222 to the tank. Before refilling the tank it was 4.8/579 and after filling the tank it was 5.4/517. Later that same night it was 5.7/519. Then of course this morning it was 5.8/516.

 

[Papageno]

lets see one thing at a time but sounds all good to me...

H2O2 is used to sterilize the res. one side benefit is as it breaks down you get some extra O2 but really it isn't that big a deal. It is good to add if you are trying to keep a sterile res. Don't add it and bacteria. That is just plain stoooopid.

I have never used Orca. Lots of people do and find it to be good. The ingredients are exactly what you need right now. You should use it about every 2 weeks. so if you res change every 2 weeks just add it then and you are golden pony boy. I many giive it a shot next time but I like to make my own. You can buy the raw ingredients and do it yourself if you want but off the shelf stuff is hard to pass up. I only mentioned Voodoo as most people are using that.

Lastley that is a wild down and up. I would have taken it back to the bottom of the good range quickly then slowly brought it up to the top. But you will be fine. Due to the extreme low nature you may have some lockout to deal with. Your PPM looks static, now. I would monitor this. You may have a bunch of useless ppm now. Your roots may be reverse leaching. We may need to top off with some nutes or even dump the res but I doubt it. Just post an update tomorrow and we shall see.

 

[PTSDgrower]

I bought orca and voodoo juice about 1.4 years ago. I still have about 1/3 left of the orca, last time I used it about 1-2 months ago, it just gunked my shit up back. The voodoo juice, I haven't bought it again...I'd stick with H2O2, its cheap and keeps my roots semiclean for the most part. I just picked up hydroguard yesterday(recommended by a few), which I will try in place of h2o2 on one of my newer plants. Before VI gets on me, I won't add them together.

 

[Papageno]

LOL

I think Hydroguard is the one that had to be taken off the shelf's here in Oregon because the label is illegal. It is good stuff just the hippies here have laws about what has to be on the label for things like that and it doesn't have the proper labeling so they had to take it all off the shelves. I remember talking to the guy at the hydro store and he was pissed because he has a ton of it in back just dying away that he can't sell...can't even give it away because the labels did not say it has living things in it. And I only know this because I went to go get some to try it out and ended up walking out with Voodoo Juice.

I think a Sterile res is the way to go for beginners. It works great and there is much less to know.

 

[closetcase420]

So I'm confused then.

I have Hydroguard and I've used it on all my previous grows up to this grow. I was using it to prevent against slime in the water on my first grow. I've since started using the water chiller so I figured the Hydroguard would be a waste this grow.

Orca will be here tomorrow, should I use it or should I use the HydroGuard, or should I use the H202 that I have

 

[Papageno]

It is always important to read the back label.



Orca has all of this which includes the 2 most important things in many different strains...Glomus and Bacilius. Fungi and Bacteria...

Endomycorrhiza
Glomus intraradices – 17 propagules per mL
Glomus mosseae – 17 props per mL
Glomus etunicatum – 17 props per mL
Glomus aggregatum – 17 props per mL

Bacteria
Azotobacter chroococcum – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Bacillus subtilis – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Bacillus licheniformis – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Bacillus azotoformans – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Bacillus megaterium – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Bacillus coagulans – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Bacillus pumilus – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Bacillus thuringiensis – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Bacillus amyloliquefaciens – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Paenibacillus durum – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Paenibacillus polymyxa – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Saccharomyces cerevisiae – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Pseudomonas aureofaciens – 24,960 CFU’s per mL
Pseudomonas fluorescens – 24,960 CFU’s per mL


Hydro guard is just the Bacillus stuff I think.

I use a glomus only powder and a bacillus only liquid because I feel it is best to activate the Glomus right before using it. But I am sure the Orca stuff works just fine.

 

[closetcase420]

It appears my PH is dropping again.

Last night I was 5.8/516.

This morning (approx 12hrs later) it was 5.3/529

Just now (another 12hrs later) it is 5.0/513

What should I do? The water level has also dropped again, down about a gallon.

 

[closetcase420]

Forgot to mention, even with the PH going quickly up and down between 5 and 6 the middle plant has grown a full inch in 2 days. Do you think I should I bring the light closer? Right now it's about 22 inches above the SCROG which the middle plant is encroaching on.

Measurements Right Now

Front Left : 6 1/2
Back left : 3 1/2
Middle : 10 1/2
Front Right : 2 1/2
Back Right : 6 1/2

I'm really starting to wonder if the Back Left and Front Right are going to catch up. I'm considering cutting another lid with 3 pots in a triangle and keeping only the princess and her two step sisters

What do you think, keep the stragglers and keep everything in place or toss the stragglers and rearrange the remaining three?

 

[Papageno]

That's your call on killing good plants. Before you do consider trimming off all the side branches and having then run up a single Kola.

So one thing we never talked about is the res size. Basic rule of thumb is 5 gallons per plant. less than that and you will have a hard time controlling the pH and such. Not impossible just more difficult. So with 5 plants you are going to want at least a 30 gallon tote because you loose at least 5 gallons at the top to keep the baskets out of the res. Then as they drink up it gets worse but at least at that size it is reasonable.

Your PPM has not gone up so you have not added nutes like we talked about right?

You are dropping still and have the same basic ppm so top off with some good amount of nutes and toss in that Hygrozyme. don't worry about too much in fact maybe double strength it. that is not nutes it wont burn the plants. it just fixes problems and breaks down bad stuff into good stuff...may even work out some of your lock out.

In DWC you ALWAYS can just dump the res and start over and it is very good to do so before tragedy strikes.

So if you want to "just fix it" then do a res change. In the new res dump in that hygrozyme as you have it handy and it will eventually go bad anyway so just use it up. Go full 1/2 strength nutes i the new res and get them back on track.

So you really have one more shot at fixing it before you should pull the trigger and dump the res in my opinion. You don't want a DWC problem to go on for more than 3 days. You say you are down a gallon? If you mixed up a 1 gallon top off at normal full strength nutes, pH it, add that to the res and then dumped in some of the Hygrozym and let it sit over night you might be happy by morning.

The fact that the plants is still growing strong is a very good sign. I don't think you have an infection yet. I think you have the problem I described yesterday of the plant having higher concentration of nutes than the res. If that is the case then the plant has started eating itself... so 3 days max.

 

[closetcase420]

Ok, the Orca is scheduled for delivery today so as soon as I get that I'll prepare the water to be changed.

I'm going to go ahead and do a full water change, it can't hurt right.

So far I've been running 1/4 strength nutrients . I'll put in half nutrients along with a full full serving of silica blast and orca. Should I also use HydroGuard or just the Orca?