JoJo's Hempy SOG 'n SCROG - LED - C99 - Northern Lights - NL99

[jojo677]

Update (19 days flower, 61 days old):

I'll do a quick update today. The buds are a poppin' and stems are strong. Spaces are filling up too, so I'm going to have to start using the second light pretty soon. I'm going to take another round of clones from the NL99 mothers and keep on SOGing. Overall, I'm very impressed how healthy everything is looking. I've been adding Cal/Mag and Silicon, since I didn't do any/much of either last round, and leaves are thicker, and the plants look heartier.

The NL99 plants are looking excellent and I think I'm going to like growing them. It's interesting seeing the differences between all of them. Some are more compact, some are stinkier, some have a ton more leaves, etc. I'm ready to start SCROGing one of them too.

The C99 SOG plants are looking great too. They've bolted up and it's interesting to see how they form buds as compared to the NL99. They seem to be much longer.

The NL plant is either slower than the NL99 plants, or it's a bit of a runt. Bud develoopment is slower, and it kind of looks puny compared to the others. I'll grow it out either way though.

And the vegging plants are looking great too. I'm feeding them at around 800 PPM, and they're handling it like champs. I'll probably cut the two top branches from each mother for clones tonight. The C99 mother also exploded with growth over the last few days, after I trimmed her down quite a bit.

I figured I'd also include pictures of my ozone generator. I over-complicated it by using an arduino, but it was easy that way. I have about $35 in it.

Hope you're all doing well!

 

[jojo677]

Update (21 days flower, 63 days old):

WARNING: I know some of you will cringe at some of the following pictures, so if you can't handle a little defoliation, skip over this post!

Alright folks, it's that time! It is day 21, so I defoliated all of the flowering NL99 plants, as well as the NL. There were a few more leaves to take off than I expected, but I think they'll recover juuust fine. I'm mostly following the advice given in the following thread, which I've shared before.
Come SOG with Me - 112 Plant - 2 Liter - Hempy SOG

I followed his technique of leaving a few top and bottom fan leaves, and removing almost any other large fans. I also removed a few small budsites from the bottom of each plant. These were the ones that stretched 3-5", and wouldn't amount to much. All plants should have roughly the same amount of budsites, so I can compare harvest weights.

An interesting side note: I'm going for colas with these plants, so I don't want a lot of long side branches. Before flipping to 12/12 I trimmed off many budsites, leaving only the top and 1-2 pairs of budsites on each of the branches. Those 1-2 pairs that I left on the branches are the ones that stretched the most. All of the budsited formed after the flip are very close to the main branches. I also noticed this in my C99 plants. I had a few growth nodes before I flipped, and 16 days into flower, I have several useless bottom branches that I'll trim off. In the future I'll leave as few budsites as possible to reduce side-branching.

I should mention that the thing I did differently from koolkat was cut the fans off leaving as much as the stem as possible. I read somewhere (can't remember where) that ripping fans off at their base creates larger wounds that are tougher for the plant to heal, and have a higher chance of infection/etc. The stems also contain nutrients, so really I can only benefit from leaving them on. This makes sense to me, plus it's easier!

I ended up with a big pile of leaves, but when the plants went back into the flower chamber, all the budsites were gleaming with light. Overall, I'm hoping that defoliation does 3 things for me.

1. Creates a better airflow through the plants (though I'm not worried about mold, as RH is ~50% and will decrease).
2. Increases yield. I know this is debatable, but some claim it can increase yield by 20-40%. I have to try it to see how it works for ME.
3. Weeds out (pun intended) the hermie-prone plants. I figure this amount of stress should help me identify strong plants, since I made these seeds from 2 feminized mothers, which is kind of a no-no...

I may defoliate the C99 plants in a few days as well, though their leaves are so slender and sparse that I don't know they'd even benefit from it.

I'll also note that I fed the plants at ~1150 PPM soon after defol. They should like that.

Enough of the yacking, here are some pictures. I put together a few before/after comparisons of a few plants.

I've also been looking at the variations between the NL99 plants and how they compare to their parents/mothers. Realistically the NL (NL x NL) is not their true parent, but they share one of the same mothers. I laid them out in order of how their leaves compare to the NL and C99. Though the C99 leaf is a kinda crappy example since the plant went almost straight to 12/12 after having a tough time rooting.

And to sum up the flowering room:

On to the veg room. I did some re-arranging and added a light. I'll re-do all the lighting soon and add reflectors, etc, but this will work for now. I also took 8X more NL99 clones 2 days ago and put 3 more clones in containers (1x 2 days ago, and 2x tonight). They'll get straight water for the first 2 days, then I'll start feeding them. I'll give them a few days to establish roots before they go to the flower room.

I need to keep the height of the C99 plant down, and it wasn't growing quite as I would like, so I chopped off the top few inches. There are lots of lower branches which should start taking off soon.

Here's my (very) crowded cloning tray... And yes, I'm still writing on the leaves with a sharpie. It works surprisingly well!

And a clone I planted today. I'm just waiting for the last NL99 plant to get a few more roots before I plant it too. Then there should be 8-12 more plants following them shortly. I'll also be able to take more clones of the NL99 plants here soon, but I may space them out so watering/feeding doesn't get too time consuming later on.

Now this concerns me a bit. It COULD be an immature calyx forming on one of the NL99 clones, but it sure looks like a little ball to me... Comments?

That about wraps it up guys! I'll report back in a few days and maybe do a comparison of bud development.

There is another thing I'd like input on. Now that I'm SOGing, I'd like to do some experimentation on a few things to determine what effect they have on growth, yield, and other factors of the plant's development. Once I get a mother big enough, I'll use clones from one mother to compare results for the following:

1. Container height. I'd like compare plants grown in tall containers, versus short/wide containers, of the same volume. See below for a pic of what I mean.
2. Defoliation. The only real way to know how it affects yield is a side-by-side. I haven't seen any, and a SOG is the perfect way to test it!

Any input on if you've seen any experiments like this, and/or what sample size I should use? I'd think 3 plants in each condition should be fairly definitive. I'd keep all other variables constant (feeding, distance to light, etc).

Sorry for the super-long post, but I've been doing a lot of thinking about this stuff, and I think it's exciting.

Stay classy!

 

[Ruthy]

Hey JoJo!
Things look great! I like the new revamped grow area.
Read through most of all the pages just limited time tonight.
I had to take a break for a bit but I am back and have 6 started, I don't know what they are so that's half the fun I think.
Also going to a bigger room and out of the tent. I might start a journal, but I am so short on time not sure it would be the right time but want to do it and should just do it!

I think your defoliation looks perfect!

 

[jojo677]

Ruthy! Welcome back! Take your time catching up on the journal. I don't mind if you just skim through the pages looking at pictures, they should mostly catch you up.

On your journal - do it! It does take a decent amount of time to maintain/update, but it's worth it! You'll get lots of great feedback and you and your plants will benefit from it. Are you growing from bagseed again?

 

[jojo677]

I also thought of 2 other experiments I'd like to try with the SOG plants.

1. Adding silicon. I started adding it to all plants this grow, but how will I know what it does if I don't have 2+ plants to compare?
2. Adding molasses. I still have it left over from my ProMix days, though I'm not sure it would do much in a Hempy setup. I have heard of people using it in their active hydro setups though...

I'm open to suggestions or other experiments!

 

[Tead]

I'm a regular silicon user. 1/2 tsp / gal. with my feedings both veg and bloom. I grow much stronger plants. I so notice the difference.
Curious to know how molasses will work in Hempy buckets. Eye peeled... popcorn popped.

 

[Happy Hemper]

Doc Bud did a couple of hempy grows and one that may be of interest to you is Un-Lucky Queen 12/12 Hempy. In this journal he compared AN nutes with Osmocote +, I mention this because it would be an easy way to keep the nutrients balanced across your hempys. If you have not read it yet the OS+ received very positive reviews from DocB.

 

[Weaselcracker]

I love the side by side ideas JoJo. It's often the best way to find things out and may be faster than months or years spent googling around inconclusively. Funny though how that light bulb doesn't immediately go on for me. I've been wondering if silica use is causing some of the changes in my veg plants. All I have to do is stop using it on a couple of the plants and I'll have my answer, Duh...
When I very first met The Roach, if memory serves (it often doesn't, Lol) I think we were discussing the possibilities of growing in very wide shallow containers. The conversation was on someone's thread who had very limited headroom. I was wondering if it may be possible to grow shallow and wide root systems with some training and maybe a surface covering or mulch or whatever.
Which has almost nothing to do with anything, except that I think container shape is an area that could use a few side by side studies.
I'm going to start doing a half-ass side by side with the silica.
I did do a defol side by side experiment once, on one of the 420 defoliation threads. I drastically defoliated one of my plants and left the other to grow normally. I never went back to post the results because so many other factors and grower induced problems entered the picture that the experiment was nearly meaningless. My defol was also much more extreme than yours. It teaches me that I want to have my grow dialed in and humming along nicely (ha ha ha ) instead of confusing, before doing any radical side by side stuff.
A lot of people say that defoliation works much better with some strains than others. My general sense is that, indica does well with it, sativa does not. Kush strains were mentioned as doing well with defol.
Awesome idea about using it to weed out the hermie prone individuals.

 

[jojo677]

@HH - Thanks, it's good to have you pop in. I'll have to check out that grow when I get a chance. Doc Bud is one guy that I've been meaning to go through some journals, but I have too many others to keep up with! As noted above, I may be looking at a new nute line, so I'll look at OS+.

@Tead - Thanks for letting me know. I've been using like 1 ml/gal and getting noticeably stronger stems. Supposedly you can't overuse it, so I may go heavier on the C99 since they need it. I noticed that it does raise the pH a bit, but nothing crazy. I'm sure more makes it tougher though?

@weasel - I agree, it is hard to find PROOF on a lot of this stuff. I guess I'm going all Mythbusters on this grow! Sounds like container shape is on the top of my list. I've been meaning to do it for months, but with my last big SCROG, I didn't have room/motivation. Now I have plenty of clones to compare with each other, so I'll start my container experiments soon! It'll be good to have you running the same test to compare results. I saw in Mr. Ama4in's journal he had a short container too. I said something and he's going to grow a side-by-side on the containers. It's important for those of us growing in little spaces.



While I was yapping about clones, it got me thinking. I have 2 cuttings of each NL99 that should show roots in the next few days, so that's a total of 8 clones. I also have 4 C99 clones, and I could take 8 more NL99 and 4 C99 now if I wanted. I think I may space my clones out though, for a more perpetual style. After my first NL99 harvest I'll have my favorite picked out and reduce my mother count a good amount. I guess I'll try to harvest every 3 or 4 weeks, and I'm 3+ weeks in on the NL99 plants, so I need to get another bunch of plants in there soon.

Also, I realized I haven't really talked about my nutes lately. Then I realized that I haven't really explained what I'm using. My tap water is about 250 PPM, and should have a lot of calcium in it, and a bit of magnesium. First a add a bit of AquaClear to eliminate the chlorine and chlorinamines, and that raises the PPM a bit. Next I'll add General Organics CaMg+ (it smells like poo) at 5 ml/gal to my flowering plants. This really helps buffer my pH to about 5.8, and raises my PPM like 300. Then I add my Micro, then grow, then bloom in that order. I think that I'm on the right track there..

Side note: I read the other day that General Hydroponics is owned by Monsanto... I'll be trying a new brand after these bottles.

 

[rhetorrikz]

It will be great to see the side by sides Jojo keep up the good work, be careful with overcrowding... Look forward to seeing the second light and coverage in the flower area . Do u think it will raise temps much ?

 

[Tead]

My feeding routine is similar. I avoid your chlorine clearing step by letting my water sit for a few days.
1/2tsp silica, shake, 1tps epsom salts, shake alot, about 2tsp of grow or bloom, shake, a drop or two of superthrive, shake, ph adjuster as needed (usually about 1/4tsp phdown).
This clear water starts at ~250ppm and I should end up somewhere around 1100. Bigger healthier plants might get a bit stronger mix. Younger plants get a thin mix.
It's a pretty simple system that I seem to be able to complete after a bowl or two.

 

[jojo677]

Hey rhet. I don't think the light will add much heat. It's getting close to winter here, and everything stays pretty cool. I keep my house at 60°F during the day, but a space heater should keep my plants around 70°F. The flowering chamber runs about 2°F higher than ambient, and vents into the veg chamber that runs 2°F more than that. So it stays super cool with my exhaust fan on low. I'm so glad I shrunk my growspace! I expect the 2nd light would only add another 2-3°F on top of that, so it should do alright. Much different temps than your plants are seeing! Are they doing any better with your heat?


Tead - Good hear you go about it the same way. There are several ingredients I've heard that should be added first, but you can't add them all first! I also use pH down when I'm in veg growth, but the bloom nutes buffer the pH alot better. This one got me laughing:

It's a pretty simple system that I seem to be able to complete after a bowl or two.

Sometimes I have to not smoke so that I know I'm mixing nutes right!

 

[jojo677]

Update (25 days flower, 67 days old):

Hey guys, things are looking good in the grow room. I've been wondering if growth has been slowed after the defoliation, but it's hard to tell when you look at them multiple times a day... Then I remembered, I used to do 3 day comparisons. I think the following pictures speak for themselves about whether the plants were slowed much from defoliation.

Plant "NL99 A"

Plant "NL99 B"

Definitely some good growth going on. I fed them tonight, and I think I'm getting just the teensiest bit of burning on the tips of the leaves, so I think my 1100 PPM feed is a good amount for them. I've also been feeding the C99 SOG plants the same. They're looking great too. 3/5 of them will be 21 days into 12/12 tomorrow, so I'll probably do some defoliation for comparison. I'm thinking I'll defol 2 plants like I did with the last few plants, 1 plant will be HEAVILY defoliated, and 2 plants will not be touched, as a control group. I don't think this is a great strain to defoliate since the leaves don't block much light at all, but it can't hurt to try!

Vege time. They're all doing great too, and could use a trim. I'll probably take a bunch of clones tomorrow and have to re-arrange the veg chamber.

The biggest thing bothering me is that the latest NL99 clones that were just planted look overwatered.. I'm using regular perlite which has a lot of dust and fine particles in it, so I know it's holding a lot more water. In the past I've use coarse perlite for everything, but had vermiculite, so I thought it would act similarly, but the droopiness continues!

I hope all your grows are doing great. Oh, and you too!

Boo!

 

[Happy Hemper]

A blurb on the subject cut from the web.

"Perlite and vermiculite are both good at retaining water, but vermiculite acts more like a sponge, holding much more water than perlite and offering less aeration for the plant roots. Perlite retains water because of its large surface area with nooks and crannies available for water storage. Because it is porous it allows excess water to drain more readily than vermiculite and improves soil aeration."

I can see why some growers use a 75% perlite 25% vermiculite mix.

 

[Tead]

I've recently had some rotting issues in a verm/perl mix. While my plants could get thru bloom without an issue, if I tried any re-vegging (something I tend to do often) anything in the verm/perl mix, rot would set in at about 2 months.
Upon investigation, I found that the verm had mostly settled to the bottom after so many waterings and had formed a very thick layer in the bottom half of the pot. Stank.
I use just perl these days.

 

[jojo677]

HH: Thanks for the info. That's kind of what I was thinking, so I found it odd that the plants looked overwatered, even though they were in 100% perlite. I almost want to transplant them, but I know how that would go... I guess I'll just have to wait for them to get a good enough root structure to handle the sogginess?

Tead: I learned my lesson about the stinky vermiculite last time! It wasn't bad the first time I used it, but when I tried to re-use it, that's when it smelled like rotten broccoli. I really haven't noticed much difference without the vermiculite either. I'll just have to use a sieve to remove the dust from now on.

 

[Tead]

Yea.... I believe we chatted about it on your previous grow thread. Stiiiiiiiinky. yuk. No more verm for me either.
I don't have the problem until I do a reveg. I've never really re-used it. I think my reveg attempts with it have the added problem of root mass reduction and death due to the extreme canopy reduction. Perhaps it would do better if I left more canopy when re-vegging, but I'd rather not run that experiment.

 

[jojo677]

Actually, I found reusing it to be pretty easy, but then again I'm super cheap. I took the last container and broke the rootball/perlite up in a tub of water and filtered the roots out by hand. All the perlite floated, so I just scooped it off the top and spread it out on some cardboard to dry. Then used a fan to blow across it. Seems to be working fine...

I've never tried a re-veg, but they've always seemed like they would be problematic to me. Maybe it works well and saves time though. I may give it a try one of these days.

I've changed some stuff around in the grow room this weekend and defoliated a few of the C99 plants. I'll post more about this stuff in 2 days. I also took 8 more NL99 clones and 4 of the C99. This should get me close to a full flower room combined with my other clones.

 

[Tead]

I've never tried a re-veg, but they've always seemed like they would be problematic to me. Maybe it works well and saves time though. I may give it a try one of these days.

You might want to skip that experiment. It actually takes a good bit of time. Shifting from flower back to veg is easy enough, but it can trigger alot of other problems. It's also really messy. Lots of dead mass trimming and whatnot. Plus, in the end, you'll probably end up with an oddly shaped girl.
I honestly try to avoid it, but death and destruction in the heat can leave me a little shy of genetic source material.

Happy Day of the Dead!

 

[jojo677]

With how many clones I have, I guess I don't need to re-veg! I would kind of be interested just to give it a go though. Some day. Since that nasty vermiculite isn't in the mix this time, it may not be too stinky.

Update coming soon..