New growth clawing

[Mifit1984]

Hey everyone,
Second time grower here. My 46 day old Bruce Banner auto was doing well, but I noticed the new growth is clawing pretty hard. Some background info: I'm growing in Sohum living soil, 5 gal fabric pots in a 4x2 tent, under a Spider farmer SF2000 on a 20/4 schedule. No added nutrients only tap water (not pH'd, left to sit out for several days to gas off). I try to keep the environment in check and follow a VPD chart - Temps pretty steady between 75-77 and humidity was around 55-60 (lowered humidity slightly today). I'm leaning toward N toxicity. I followed Sohum's recommendation to plant the seed in the center of the pot in a seed starter mix so I'm not sure if the roots are just now reaching into the hotter soil. Another possibly I was considering was light intensity (it was hanging 15" above, but moved it up to 18" today just in case.) but I'm just not sure. I've read here this may be normal with living soil as the plants need time to adjust to the slightly hot soil, but I don't really want to rely on that. Can anyone offer some insight?

 

[StoneOtter]

Welcome Mifit1984! This is a hard one to understand because I don't fully myself. When it happens to me in living organic soil. I've read that some more sativa leaning plants like a sweeter soil than their more indica sisters and the clawing happens when the soil needs a bump into the area she's happy in. I take a pinch of fast acting dolomite lime and mix it into a gallon of water, some folks aerate it for a while first. Over time, a few waterings, the soil gets right and everything clears up and I water normally. The link you have there is also right and works. That's part of the hard to understand thing I just can't explain.

 

[safeman]

looks like a "n" issue -- too much - if in flower your "n" amounts should be very low if any. what are your you using ? To fix Flush . One need to remember - when you feed it takes about 2 weeks for that feeding to "count" figure soil to spider roots to plant stalk to plant branches to flower sites !!!!!!! (check out GrowWeedEasy for a pictures of plant issues)

 

[bluter]

@StoneOtter has it. some sativa like it a little cooler. the roots have probably hit the hotter mix lower in the pot. autos are also much more sensitive to hot / cold growing mixes.

looks like a "n" issue -- too much - if in flower your "n" amounts should be very low if any. what are your you using ?

he's in living soil, no nutes added. it's a water only grow.

To fix Flush .

flushing is for salt based bottle nutes to rid the soil of excess. in this instance nothing is added. a different approach is required.

One need to remember - when you feed it takes about 2 weeks for that feeding to "count" figure soil to spider roots to plant stalk to plant branches to flower sites !!!!!!! (check out GrowWeedEasy for a pictures of plant issues)

we have our own deficiency charts. it's not good etiquette to send folk off site.

 

[Mifit1984]

Welcome Mifit1984! This is a hard one to understand because I don't fully myself. When it happens to me in living organic soil. I've read that some more sativa leaning plants like a sweeter soil than their more indica sisters and the clawing happens when the soil needs a bump into the area she's happy in. I take a pinch of fast acting dolomite lime and mix it into a gallon of water, some folks aerate it for a while first. Over time, a few waterings, the soil gets right and everything clears up and I water normally. The link you have there is also right and works. That's part of the hard to understand thing I just can't explain.

Thank you! My only guess is that Sohum is loaded with nitrogen to support longer veg stages for photoperiods and since autos only veg for around 3-4 weeks that leaves a lot of unused nitrogen where it doesn't need it in flower. I'm only a beginner though so take that for what it's worth. I've just noticed in both of my grows that my plants did really well in veg, but once they started to flower, I started noticing signs of N toxicity. If you don't mind me asking, what exactly does dolomite lime do to remedy this? Does it just balance out the soil or prevent the plant from taking in extra nitrogen?

 

[Mifit1984]

@StoneOtter has it. some sativa like it a little cooler. the roots have probably hit the hotter mix lower in the pot. autos are also much more sensitive to hot / cold growing mixes.





he's in living soil, no nutes added. it's a water only grow.





flushing is for salt based bottle nutes to rid the soil of excess. in this instance nothing is added. a different approach is required.







we have our own deficiency charts. it's not good etiquette to send folk off site.

Thanks for all that info! Can you recommend a soil (premixed or a recipe) that is more suitable for most autos? The problem is there is so much out there it's hard to make the right choice. Sohum looks like really good stuff and I'm sure it is- I've seen some really great stuff grown in it. But I'm not convinced it's the best for autos.

 

[bluter]

Thanks for all that info! Can you recommend a soil (premixed or a recipe) that is more suitable for most autos? The problem is there is so much out there it's hard to make the right choice. Sohum looks like really good stuff and I'm sure it is- I've seen some really great stuff grown in it. But I'm not convinced it's the best for autos.

some guys just amend it with a little promix or other neutral mix. it's good to have some bottle nutes or boosters on hand as the plant can deplete the soil and starve in flower just when you need to feed it proper.

 

[StoneOtter]

Thank you! My only guess is that Sohum is loaded with nitrogen to support longer veg stages for photoperiods and since autos only veg for around 3-4 weeks that leaves a lot of unused nitrogen where it doesn't need it in flower. I'm only a beginner though so take that for what it's worth. I've just noticed in both of my grows that my plants did really well in veg, but once they started to flower, I started noticing signs of N toxicity. If you don't mind me asking, what exactly does dolomite lime do to remedy this? Does it just balance out the soil or prevent the plant from taking in extra nitrogen?

When plants take nutes naturally they don't get the too green and clawing situation because they are choosing not to do that. That's where the soil being slightly off comes in. The dolomite changes the soil ph. Buffering is what they call it I think. And someone quoted this about that " Soil buffering is the ability of the soil to stop nutrient or pH changes by absorption" I can't say I understand all that but that's what I can say. Your plants aren't eating too much N, they're not getting the rest of what they need to stay healthy because the soil is locking them out of certain things kind of. I think it's balancing the soil.

 

[Mifit1984]

When plants take nutes naturally they don't get the too green and clawing situation because they are choosing not to do that. That's where the soil being slightly off comes in. The dolomite changes the soil ph. Buffering is what they call it I think. And someone quoted this about that " Soil buffering is the ability of the soil to stop nutrient or pH changes by absorption" I can't say I understand all that but that's what I can say. Your plants aren't eating too much N, they're not getting the rest of what they need to stay healthy because the soil is locking them out of certain things kind of. I think it's balancing the soil.

Awesome, thank you! That makes sense. I'm assuming the soil pH gets thrown out of whack from the water I'm using since that is the only thing I'm adding (no other supplements or nutrients). There is so much conflicting info out there about this. Some people advise to pH water for living soil grows while others say it isn't necessary as the microbes act as a buffer and they feed the plant. I'm running out to the nursery today to pick up some dolomite lime. Either way it's probably good to have on hand. Thanks again!

 

[Emilya Green]

In an organic soil situation, the plant is being fed by the microbes and directed by its own needs. I don't think the problem is over feeding, because that is out of the gardener's hands. I suspect that the one thing in his control is what the problem is... there is quite a bit of overwatering going on here. The problem is not feed or pH... it is pushing water too often.

 

[Mifit1984]

In an organic soil situation, the plant is being fed by the microbes and directed by its own needs. I don't think the problem is over feeding, because that is out of the gardener's hands. I suspect that the one thing in his control is what the problem is... there is quite a bit of overwatering going on here. The problem is not feed or pH... it is pushing water too often.

Thanks for the reply! I actually sited one of your replies from a different thread in this post. I've been trying to stay very vigilant when it comes to overwatering and waited till the pot was super light and the first several inches of soil were dry before watering. This seemed to be every 2-3 days at which point I would slowly pour around a half gallon - gallon in and never allowed runoff to sit in the saucer beneath the fabric pot. I suppose the root zone could have still been damp (?). My guess of N toxicity was mainly based on the dark green color of the older fan leaves, but this possibly could be genetics.

 

[Emilya Green]

Thanks for the reply! I actually sited one of your replies in a different thread in this post. I've been trying to stay very vigilant when it comes to overwatering and waited till the pot was super light and the first several inches of soil were dry before watering. This seemed to be every 2-3 days at which point I would slowly pour around a half gallon - gallon in and never allowed runoff to sit in the saucer beneath the fabric pot. I suppose the root zone could have still been damp (?). My guess of N toxicity was mainly based on the dark green color of the older fan leaves, but this possibly could be genetics.

The fact that you are even checking the top several inches for moisture tells me that you are overwatering. Super light seems to be different for a lot of people... light as a feather and absolutely no water weight being felt in the bottom is closer to what needs to happen here. You are now in bloom and probably have been overwatering for a while now and that severe clawing tells me that your roots are in trouble.

Let me stress this again.... if you are growing organically, allowing the microbes to feed the plant, then you can not overfeed. The roots and the microbes communicate and if the plant doesn't need more of a particular element, it will not be supplied. You have very little to do with this. Also, I only see a slight triangle of burn on some of your leaf tips, and this does not indicate overfeeding at all. I see an organically fed plant that has gotten all that it needs and has now told the roots and the microbes to hold off on nitrogen, and I see no complaints nutritionally about anything else either.

But that claw is definitely telling you something. The plant is pointing to its feet... that is where the problem is. I believe that unless you dry out the bottom of that container and get oxygen down to the lowest roots very soon, the claw is going to turn into something much worse.

 

[SmokingWings]

I've been trying to stay very vigilant when it comes to overwatering and waited till the pot was super light and the first several inches of soil were dry before watering. This seemed to be every 2-3 days at which point I would slowly pour around a half gallon - gallon in and never allowed runoff to sit in the saucer beneath the fabric pot.

It is very possible that it is being overwatered. I have had vegetating plants larger than that in 2 gallon pots of soil that will then take 3 or 4 days for the top couple of inches of soil to become dry. I wonder if it is a case of sim-interpreting the feel of the soil when you test it. The soil can start to look like it is not wet and feel loose like it has dried out but actually still have enough moisture in it to keep a plant healthy for another day or two.

I don't grow autos so I am just taking a stab at the problem. It does look like the clawing is affecting the new growth only. Maybe there was something you started to do differently when it began showing flowers. Something you did not give much thought to back then and have forgotten about.

I followed Sohum's recommendation to plant the seed in the center of the pot in a seed starter mix so I'm not sure if the roots are just now reaching into the hotter soil.

A healthy plant, and yours looks like it is still basically healthy, will have a few roots out past that pocket of "seed starter mix" within a week. Within two weeks the plant will have roots out to the edges and exploring from top to bottom and side to side. By now, at 46 days old (6 and a half weeks), it should have roots all over.

 

[bluter]

it won't drown in a fabric pot but the watering frequency will have an effect.

 

[Mifit1984]

It is very possible that it is being overwatered. I have had vegetating plants larger than that in 2 gallon pots of soil that will then take 3 or 4 days for the top couple of inches of soil to become dry. I wonder if it is a case of sim-interpreting the feel of the soil when you test it. The soil can start to look like it is not wet and feel loose like it has dried out but actually still have enough moisture in it to keep a plant healthy for another day or two.

I don't grow autos so I am just taking a stab at the problem. It does look like the clawing is affecting the new growth only. Maybe there was something you started to do differently when it began showing flowers. Something you did not give much thought to back then and have forgotten about.


A healthy plant, and yours looks like it is still basically healthy, will have a few roots out past that pocket of "seed starter mix" within a week. Within two weeks the plant will have roots out to the edges and exploring from top to bottom and side to side. By now, at 46 days old (6 and a half weeks), it should have roots all over.

Yea it's tricky! I tried to use multiple ways to verify it was ready for watering - one of those soil moisture probes, the finger test as far down from the top as I could go, lifting to check pot weight, and more recently, a wood skewer. But after those tests ultimately it's up to the grower whether or not to water so I may have had some bad judgement a few days. I will say, as of this morning those new leaves have started to uncurl a bit. I'm going to continue to hold off on watering for some time until I can be sure she needs it!

 

[SmokingWings]

I'm going to continue to hold off on watering for some time until I can be sure she needs it!

Yes, it can be tricky at times.

Don't go to long on holding back the water. Once the plants go into flowering they tend to need moist at least a moist soil instead of a very dry soil. They handle the dry soil while in a vegetating stage but not in flower. Part of it is that they do not seem to replace roots that might have been damaged when they ran out of "easy" to get water. Some info on the difference between watering in Vegetating versus in Flowering at the link. It will go right to the msg at starts to discuss the differences.

Proper Way To Water Potted Plant Addendum

 

[Emilya Green]

Yes, it can be tricky at times.

Don't go to long on holding back the water. Once the plants go into flowering they tend to need moist at least a moist soil instead of a very dry soil. They handle the dry soil while in a vegetating stage but not in flower. Part of it is that they do not seem to replace roots that might have been damaged when they ran out of "easy" to get water. Some info on the difference between watering in Vegetating versus in Flowering at the link. It will go right to the msg at starts to discuss the differences.

Proper Way To Water Potted Plant Addendum

Keep in mind that this advice was given for healthy plants, whereas the plant in this thread seems to have been overwatered for a while and we suspect that it has some lower roots that are starting to atrophy after this long term continued overwatering. Let's concentrate on really drying the container out at least once, and lets see those leaves lift to at least horizontal. It is not necessary to keep a flowering plant moist all the time, as the folks in the droughting thread are showing us.

In my watering addendum, I show that you should USE the healthy roots that were carefully developed in veg using the wet/dry method, by seeing how much water you can get the plant to take. These here are not healthy roots... they can't even develop enough water pressure to hold the upper leaves up. Healthy roots would be able to hold those leaves up in a praying position. Let her dry out until you can't feel any water weight at all. If the plant hasn't wilted yet, from the upper trunk, she is still fine. Even if you went so far that she wilted, she would be in better shape than she is now. In that case she would be frantically growing new roots, trying to find more water, instead of struggling with the drowned roots she now has. Don't worry about the microbes and the soil drying out. If microbes were that easy to kill life never would have formed on this planet. Those microbes that get too dry will simply go into stasis, until the next water hits. Make your plant work for a living. She will reward you in the end. Coddled plants tend to be lazy plants.

 

[SmokingWings]

Keep in mind that this advice was given for healthy plants, whereas the plant in this thread seems to have been overwatered for a while and we suspect that it has some lower roots that are starting to atrophy after this long term continued overwatering. Let's concentrate on really drying the container out at least once, and lets see those leaves lift to at least horizontal. It is not necessary to keep a flowering plant moist all the time, as the folks in the droughting thread are showing us.

In my watering addendum, I show that you should USE the healthy roots that were carefully developed in veg using the wet/dry method, by seeing how much water you can get the plant to take. These here are not healthy roots... they can't even develop enough water pressure to hold the upper leaves up. Healthy roots would be able to hold those leaves up in a praying position. Let her dry out until you can't feel any water weight at all. If the plant hasn't wilted yet, from the upper trunk, she is still fine. Even if you went so far that she wilted, she would be in better shape than she is now. In that case she would be frantically growing new roots, trying to find more water, instead of struggling with the drowned roots she now has. Don't worry about the microbes and the soil drying out. If microbes were that easy to kill life never would have formed on this planet. Those microbes that get too dry will simply go into stasis, until the next water hits. Make your plant work for a living. She will reward you in the end. Coddled plants tend to be lazy plants.

Yes, but I feel that we have to remind growers that there is a limit to how long they can hold off on watering when they are drying out soil that has been saturated for too long of a time. Or, how often can they go through a wet dry cycle while in flower before the plant looses enough of it roots that it cannot grow properly. It would not take all that long of a dry stage or that many before any remaining healthy roots are also damaged.

Plus, this plant is well into flowering and it is felt that these plants are not replacing damaged roots as fast as they do while they are in a vegetating stage.

I am pretty sure that the majority of those who read posts like this are just cruising through and do not read or follow both sides of a discussion. Nor do they come back later to read what was done and what the results were. At least now they can get more info to consider even if they never find their way back.

 

[Emilya Green]

Yes, but I feel that we have to remind growers that there is a limit to how long they can hold off on watering when they are drying out soil that has been saturated for too long of a time. Or, how often can they go through a wet dry cycle while in flower before the plant looses enough of it roots that it cannot grow properly. It would not take all that long of a dry stage or that many before any remaining healthy roots are also damaged.

Plus, this plant is well into flowering and it is felt that these plants are not replacing damaged roots as fast as they do while they are in a vegetating stage.

I am pretty sure that the majority of those who read posts like this are just cruising through and do not read or follow both sides of a discussion. Nor do they come back later to read what was done and what the results were. At least now they can get more info to consider even if they never find their way back.

I don't know why you think that going through a wet-dry cycle destroys roots in flower. Many areas experience drought at the back end of the growing season and the soil outside dries out completely. This does not seem to harm our plant or kill its roots. While I do push more water during the flowering season I also prefer to let the plants go completely dry at least once or twice during flower just to flush the roots with a good dose of oxygen once in a while. My experience with doing this says that it does not harm the plant. Please stop stating this without providing proof of what you are saying, and providing pictures of plants who were taken too far and died because they weren't watered in time before the roots died. Remember too that we're not just simply waiting for the environment to drain the water out of the soil, for that might take an appreciable amount of time, but instead we are waiting for the plant to use that water and to develop any roots that it needs in order to do so. It's not like it's going to take an excessive amount of time, and the plant will recover completely in just a couple of cycles after it gets the oxygen it needs down below.

 

[Mifit1984]

I don't know why you think that going through a wet-dry cycle destroys roots in flower. Many areas experience drought at the back end of the growing season and the soil outside dries out completely. This does not seem to harm our plant or kill its roots. While I do push more water during the flowering season I also prefer to let the plants go completely dry at least once or twice during flower just to flush the roots with a good dose of oxygen once in a while. My experience with doing this says that it does not harm the plant. Please stop stating this without providing proof of what you are saying, and providing pictures of plants who were taken too far and died because they weren't watered in time before the roots died. Remember too that we're not just simply waiting for the environment to drain the water out of the soil, for that might take an appreciable amount of time, but instead we are waiting for the plant to use that water and to develop any roots that it needs in order to do so. It's not like it's going to take an excessive amount of time, and the plant will recover completely in just a couple of cycles after it gets the oxygen it needs down below.

Thanks for the advice! It's been about 4 days since I watered last although I still feel a little extra water weight while lifting the pot. The new leaves went from the full/hard claw in my original post to straight wilted yesterday, but throughout the day today they seem to be slowly raising. Definitely not out of the woods, but a little progress I think.