Nitrogen toxicity in organic Kind soil

[Northbar]

Kind soil / roots organic
Hlg 320xl rspec
2x4 tent
Water 6.8 as per kind soil instruction
strains: big altai sativa/ amnesia molotov

How would one remedy nitrogen toxicity in a water only super soil organic system such as kind soil?

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi Northbar, and welcome to the forum!
Did you use the supersoil in just in the lower third of the container? You should not be experiencing N tox in a supersoil and base soil grow though, so please forgive me if I am skeptical... may we see some pictures of the damage you are seeing?

 

[Northbar]

Thank you! I used the kind soil exactly how instructed yes. Heres a look at her.

 

[Emilya Green]

Ah... it is as I suspected, being a long time supersoil grower myself. You are seeing the clawing especially at the top and the little bits of burned tips, and equating this to Nitrogen Toxicity, yes?

While your leaves are definitely trying to tell you something, true toxicity looks far worse than this... the plant would look to be terribly ill. What you have are some complaining leaves.

So what are they complaining about and showing little burned tips as a result? Your roots are right now exploring that supersoil at the bottom of your container. There is a lot of very rich stuff down there cooked into that soil, and plenty left over that isn't all the way cooked yet. There are some little zones in there that have pH fluxuations that the exploring roots didn't expect... hot zones of nutrient rich and mineral rich supersoil. When a new root growth tip hits one of these, it can be pruned off and split right there to go around it, or it can adapt and move on... lots of things can be happening down there, and as it does you are going to get reactions in the leaves above that something is not exactly perfect for a young exploring plant. The leaf tips are pointing toward the roots sort of like a cat on a hot tin roof tries really really hard not to touch, or a swimmer sticking a toe into a cold pool and pulling back. If the root tip split into two, that damage will result in the little damaged leaf tips all around the plant.

Basically, this is all normal with a supersoil grow. They call it supersoil for a reason... it is really too hot for the plants to be able to handle by itself, hence the reason we put it only in the bottom third. The plants can handle this because instead of forcing the roots into a medium so rich, we are allowing them to seek the bottom and find this rich soil, and then adapt to being able to live within such strong soil. The reactions you are seeing in the leaves above are telling you that the supersoil is working... and all is well. Every supersoil grow I have ever done, and there have been many, I get burned leaf tips and this reaction to the young plants of finding the supersoil. Give them time, and they will adapt.

 

[Northbar]

Ah... it is as I suspected, being a long time supersoil grower myself. You are seeing the clawing especially at the top and the little bits of burned tips, and equating this to Nitrogen Toxicity, yes?

While your leaves are definitely trying to tell you something, true toxicity looks far worse than this... the plant would look to be terribly ill. What you have are some complaining leaves.

So what are they complaining about and showing little burned tips as a result? Your roots are right now exploring that supersoil at the bottom of your container. There is a lot of very rich stuff down there cooked into that soil, and plenty left over that isn't all the way cooked yet. There are some little zones in there that have pH fluxuations that the exploring roots didn't expect... hot zones of nutrient rich and mineral rich supersoil. When a new root growth tip hits one of these, it can be pruned off and split right there to go around it, or it can adapt and move on... lots of things can be happening down there, and as it does you are going to get reactions in the leaves above that something is not exactly perfect for a young exploring plant. The leaf tips are pointing toward the roots sort of like a cat on a hot tin roof tries really really hard not to touch, or a swimmer sticking a toe into a cold pool and pulling back. If the root tip split into two, that damage will result in the little damaged leaf tips all around the plant.

Basically, this is all normal with a supersoil grow. They call it supersoil for a reason... it is really too hot for the plants to be able to handle by itself, hence the reason we put it only in the bottom third. The plants can handle this because instead of forcing the roots into a medium so rich, we are allowing them to seek the bottom and find this rich soil, and then adapt to being able to live within such strong soil. The reactions you are seeing in the leaves above are telling you that the supersoil is working... and all is well. Every supersoil grow I have ever done, and there have been many, I get burned leaf tips and this reaction to the young plants of finding the supersoil. Give them time, and they will adapt.

I could visualize everything as I read your post. KIND soil needs to add your response to their Q/A page. Seriously great response. I was at a loss as I’ve been very meticulous with their environment and water PH.

I killed 2 batches of Autos for my first try. Overwatered the first time. ffof nute burned the second. Prob some over watering too. First autos showed same claw with tip bur

My current 4 have been on 12/12 light leak proof for over a week now with 2 showing female. I was walking toward the edge as I read N tox in Flower creates airy wispy garbage bud.

Here are the 2 amnesia molotov. The natural light pics are a week earlier. They seem small and compact but happy. My fussy altai is definitely more leggy. Thanks again.

 

[Northbar]

@Emilya You have any other quirks or tips with your kind soil experience you are willing to part with? You ever add recharge? What Water and ph did you find was best? Watering technique/amount? Any nute depletion in flower even if their prescribed chart was followed? I’m very interested.

 

[Emilya Green]

@Emilya You have any other quirks or tips with your kind soil experience you are willing to part with? You ever add recharge? What Water and ph did you find was best? Watering technique/amount? Any nute depletion in flower even if their prescribed chart was followed? I’m very interested.

I don't use kind soil, but something similar, the SubCool supersoil recipe. I mixed it up 7 years ago and have used it as organic super soil up until my current grow, when I switched to Megacrop to experiment with that new fertilizer technology.
I followed the advice in Rev's book about TLO and for the first year or two I brewed my own AACT teas to add to the grow so as to keep the microbes going strong, but on my last grow, which won the Grow Journal of the Month last month, I stopped brewing my own teas and gave Realgrower's Recharge the entire grow and was quite impressed with the results.

I never worried or checked on my pH through any of my organic grows... the microbes don't care about pH.

I have developed my own watering techniques and have written extensively about it, with my articles on watering being made sticky threads on every online forum I have put them on, and many people believe my work to be must read material to a soil grower. I invite you to read it too... the link is down below.

I have only once ran out of available nutes in an organic supersoil grow, and that was my fault by overusing the soil and having too little of a container for a long running sativa. Any supersoil can use a re-mineralization after a couple of grows, but your Kind soil should be more than adequate for a single grow.

My other biggest tip is to amend your soil with Vulx, a volcanic addition that actually makes any soil better. As far as all of my tips and tricks... I think you might have to go back through my last 2 or 3 years of journaling on this forum to see how my organic journey has been refined over the years. You might also find interest in the beginning of my organic / natural fertilizer work, where I learned how to ferment natural fertilizers from dandelions, specialized fermentations and microbes from milk and eggshells and banana peels and you can check my various links and tutorials for information on those.

 

[StoneOtter]

Hey Northbar, looks like you're on track. Nice plants.

 

[Marzbadrock]

What are you using to ph with?

 

[Northbar]

What are you using to ph with?

Earth crystals
I recently found a bottle water source at 6.6. So I haven't been ph’ing.

 

[Northbar]

Heres an update on the girls. Almost 2 weeks in flower. I haven't observed a whole lot of stretch. The 2 molotov are doing great. 1 altai is as well. All females. Her sister is still unhappy with conditions and been for weeks now. Hopefully she grows out of her funk. Guess which one

 

[Northbar]

4 weeks in flower. About a week ago they started yellowing. No idea whats going on. Its like they fell apart in flowering despite healthy in veg.

 

[Emilya Green]

4 weeks in flower. About a week ago they started yellowing. No idea whats going on. Its like they fell apart in flowering despite healthy in veg.

Hi Northbar... it was going so well up until now! The yellowing starting at the bottom and moving up the trunk definitely shows that you have a mobile macro nutrient deficiency going on here, and because of the timing we know that it is not Nitrogen that they are lacking, it is potassium.
But why is that, since it all should be in that kind soil?
I suspect that the majority of your microbes have died off by this point and those that are left are not able to process enough of the K in that soil into a usable form and get it into the plants. You need a quick microbial injection, and could benefit from an organic hit of potassium, maybe from banana peel water or some other source.

I would suggest getting more microbes in there, fast. At least a weekly AACT would be called for in a grow such as this, certainly clean unchlorinated water and no pH chemicals, and with these precautions you maybe could have kept the microbes going and multiplying so that they would have been stronger in numbers by this time and able to handle the increased needs of bloom.

So, I would concentrate on getting your microherd back up to snuff instead of wondering what else you could "feed" to your plants. URB, Voodoo Juice, RealGrower's Recharge, and several others in various places in the world will fit this bill. Get on this quickly, or give up on the Kind Soil model entirely and start feeding these hungry plants what they need from a bottle.

 

[Northbar]

Hi Northbar... it was going so well up until now! The yellowing starting at the bottom and moving up the trunk definitely shows that you have a mobile macro nutrient deficiency going on here, and because of the timing we know that it is not Nitrogen that they are lacking, it is potassium.
But why is that, since it all should be in that kind soil?
I suspect that the majority of your microbes have died off by this point and those that are left are not able to process enough of the K in that soil into a usable form and get it into the plants. You need a quick microbial injection, and could benefit from an organic hit of potassium, maybe from banana peel water or some other source.

I would suggest getting more microbes in there, fast. At least a weekly AACT would be called for in a grow such as this, certainly clean unchlorinated water and no pH chemicals, and with these precautions you maybe could have kept the microbes going and multiplying so that they would have been stronger in numbers by this time and able to handle the increased needs of bloom.

So, I would concentrate on getting your microherd back up to snuff instead of wondering what else you could "feed" to your plants. URB, Voodoo Juice, RealGrower's Recharge, and several others in various places in the world will fit this bill. Get on this quickly, or give up on the Kind Soil model entirely and start feeding these hungry plants what they need from a bottle.

Hi Emilya, thanks for replying to this. I have great white myco and recharge on hand. Would you suggest using both ASAP? Or just the recharge?

I’m more curious how this happened. My environment is and was solid. My watering was questionable but much better this grow. I’m weighing the pots and recording daily.

The only thing I can think of was I switched to poland spring water and no ph required although I check each jug to make sure its in range. My water through veg was ph’d tap water that I wont even drink. And yet they were healthy. I also can’t find any bugs. Even dusted the top soil with DE and left sticky traps close to the pots. Nothing. I did use recharge a few times in late veg as well.

 

[Emilya Green]

Hi Emilya, thanks for replying to this. I have great white myco and recharge on hand. Would you suggest using both ASAP? Or just the recharge?

I’m more curious how this happened. My environment is and was solid. My watering was questionable but much better this grow. I’m weighing the pots and recording daily.

The only thing I can think of was I switched to poland spring water and no ph required although I check each jug to make sure its in range. My water through veg was ph’d tap water that I wont even drink. And yet they were healthy. I also can’t find any bugs. Even dusted the top soil with DE and left sticky traps close to the pots. Nothing. I did use recharge a few times in late veg as well.

The myco should be used in veg to help produce the fungi that work with the roots and enable much better exchange of nutrients and after reaching bloom it is not going to be nearly as helpful. Recharge however should be given with at least every other watering, and I give it every watering, at the full power plant level... you can't have too many microbes.

This is what has happened to you... every application of pH adjusting acid has killed off a few microbes. Bad water has killed off some more. Then over time, in a less than optimum environment the microbes have not been thriving, and those that were not overly active in veg because they were not needed have really suffered in their numbers. Microbes when they are thriving can multiply into the billions, but when they are facing adversity they will slowly die out.

The only perfect environment for our microbes is a living organic soil, in a very large living container of soil. This sort of system is self sustainable, and the microbes will be able to thrive. In a typical multisoil supersoil on the bottom sort of grow, the microbes are temporary, and they have to keep being added.

I think Recharge can fix you. Give it at that full tsp/gal level every watering for a while and watch what happens. In 48 hours I expect your grow to start turning around.

 

[bobrown14]

I'mma gonna ask a simple question:

Are they Photo period or AUTO period?

Looks like overtraining "to me" Maybe its a runt, its a very small plant. I've never had a chemdawg or a chem variant grow that small..... If I did I wood have culled it.

 

[Northbar]

I'mma gonna ask a simple question:

Are they Photo period or AUTO period?

Looks like overtraining "to me" Maybe its a runt, its a very small plant. I've never had a chemdawg or a chem variant grow that small..... If I did I wood have culled it.

All photo period. I’ve only seen “some” stretch from one plant since I’ve flipped em over 4wks ago. Hardly any growth from the other 3.

Emilya says use recharge and the kind soil guy says its a bug issue. Recharge Is about to happen again and I’ve been occasionally Dusting the top soil with DE for about 2 weeks.

Perhaps I need some beneficial nematodes as well. I’m really hoping my tap water was toxic during use in veg that was causing this. I have no idea what to think if this happens again on my next attempt with all bottle water.

 

[Northbar]

The myco should be used in veg to help produce the fungi that work with the roots and enable much better exchange of nutrients and after reaching bloom it is not going to be nearly as helpful. Recharge however should be given with at least every other watering, and I give it every watering, at the full power plant level... you can't have too many microbes.

This is what has happened to you... every application of pH adjusting acid has killed off a few microbes. Bad water has killed off some more. Then over time, in a less than optimum environment the microbes have not been thriving, and those that were not overly active in veg because they were not needed have really suffered in their numbers. Microbes when they are thriving can multiply into the billions, but when they are facing adversity they will slowly die out.

The only perfect environment for our microbes is a living organic soil, in a very large living container of soil. This sort of system is self sustainable, and the microbes will be able to thrive. In a typical multisoil supersoil on the bottom sort of grow, the microbes are temporary, and they have to keep being added.

I think Recharge can fix you. Give it at that full tsp/gal level every watering for a while and watch what happens. In 48 hours I expect your grow to start turning around.

So last night I used recharge 3cups total across 3 plants. I diluted it down for 3cups. And Just a light water since they were recently watered.

Today, one girl has shown remarkable recovery overnight. I wasn't expecting such fast results. I posted her overhead deflated picture from yesterday along with 3 new poses of the same girl today. She appears to be on the up swing with fresh new white hairs as well. The others look no worse off since last night and they are all steady drinking water.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom and helping me get back in track.

 

[Emilya Green]

Great news! Recharge is amazing stuff! Just wait till you can get a full watering with it in there!

 

[bobrown14]

If using tap water you need to let it sit out overnight or better aerate it.

Look into "RO Buddie" its like 50 bucks for a RO filter will be good enough save you with the bottled water thing and its good to drink as well. All I use.