7 weeks - PH? Deficiency? Rootbound?

[Kingsnake235]

so i went out and got a cheap soil moisture meter to get an idea of whats going on down there without transplanting yet; after checking in multiple places on each plant, all 6 plants read dry 1-2 on a scale of 10.

after the flush initially, 3 of the plants were pointing straight up, which i thought was a good sign, as you have said; i was also having some trouble getting the water to really penetrate the soil tho, it was soaked for an inch or so and then relatively dry under that.. with the moisture reading in mind, could it have been that the flushing did well for them but because i didn't use enough water, i didn't really saturate the soil? so they perked up a bit and then the middle dried right out, but the roots at the bottom stayed wet for a couple days, then causing a an initial droop of overwatering but drying right out to underwatered/fed and exacerbating the nutrient issues?

so it raises a couple more questions.. are these $6 moisture meters accurate enough to rely on? and when should i water next, with what and how much nutrient?

i have the pots and things to transplant when needed now, so i have some room to take it slow and let them recover.

 

[Emilya Green]

so i went out and got a cheap soil moisture meter to get an idea of whats going on down there without transplanting yet; after checking in multiple places on each plant, all 6 plants read dry 1-2 on a scale of 10.

after the flush initially, 3 of the plants were pointing straight up, which i thought was a good sign, as you have said; i was also having some trouble getting the water to really penetrate the soil tho, it was soaked for an inch or so and then relatively dry under that.. with the moisture reading in mind, could it have been that the flushing did well for them but because i didn't use enough water, i didn't really saturate the soil? so they perked up a bit and then the middle dried right out, but the roots at the bottom stayed wet for a couple days, then causing a an initial droop of overwatering but drying right out to underwatered/fed and exacerbating the nutrient issues?

so it raises a couple more questions.. are these $6 moisture meters accurate enough to rely on? and when should i water next, with what and how much nutrient?

i have the pots and things to transplant when needed now, so i have some room to take it slow and let them recover.

those moisture meters have basically 2 readings, moist and wet. when you get down to the water table, the meter will peg all the way to the right. This is really all you can do with these meters... track that wet/dry line down to the last inch, and then water.

The trick to getting water to penetrate the soil is time. Go slow, and it will happen. You are surprised it seems to see how much water it takes, comparing it to your flushing, but yes, watering without saturating the soil and allowing the water table to rise all the way to the top, really stops a lot of good things that happen in containers... when you don't saturate, your water simply drops to the bottom and ends up drowning the lower roots... which of course in a weed, are the main roots.

 

[Kingsnake235]

right. so i tested it on a bag of soil and it spiked over to 7/8 so it definitely works. meaning my pots are all dry, so i should water.

if you don't mind i have a few questions about that..

should that watering be a feeding or just a watering?
since i've been underestimating my volume, can you recommend a better volume/ratio of water, or method of determining when enough is enough?
if a feed, how heavy/light and which nutrients? i now have biozbizz fish mix, bloom, bioheaven and top max.
if a feed, should i water with plain water first, to saturate and THEN add the nute water? or should i use all nute solution?

watering slowly no matter the case, of course..

thanks for all your help as well, i really appreciate taking the time to walk through it!

 

[Emilya Green]

right. so i tested it on a bag of soil and it spiked over to 7/8 so it definitely works. meaning my pots are all dry, so i should water.

if you don't mind i have a few questions about that..

should that watering be a feeding or just a watering?
since i've been underestimating my volume, can you recommend a better volume/ratio of water, or method of determining when enough is enough?
if a feed, how heavy/light and which nutrients? i now have biozbizz fish mix, bloom, bioheaven and top max.
if a feed, should i water with plain water first, to saturate and THEN add the nute water? or should i use all nute solution?

watering slowly no matter the case, of course..

thanks for all your help as well, i really appreciate taking the time to walk through it!

I assume that along with being light, the plants are all reaching up, looking pretty happy at the moment. This would be because oxygen has hit the lower roots and they are activating full force transpiration to grab up all the remaining water.

so the goal is to water to saturation. This means to treat that soil as a sponge, and actually attempt to get the very most water you can into it. The trick is to go slow, as I described in my watering document. Going slow, and trying to get some soil exchange happening in the container as described in my watering article, you will eventually reach a point where every drop you add, simply come out of the bottom as runoff. Roughly, dry soil can hold about 2/3 of the volume of the container in water and when it can hold no more, it is said to be saturated. Water most definitely becomes the prominent element in the container. The pH of this saturated mixture has no choice but to be the same as the water that is sitting in there, so make sure it is 6.5, whether it is plain water or water mixed with nutes.
I can not advise you on biobizz and the mix that you are using. All I can do is tell you to follow the directions and err on the low side. If you are going to feed however, feed. Don't overthink this. If you add water at one point and nutes at another, all you have done is dilute the nutrient solution that is the water table in that container. If you are going to feed, feed. Don't fret one instant that it is nutrient solution that you are using initially to break the surface tension of your soil... go slow, and as you form a diaphragm of water just under the surface, a powerful suction will start up to pull the rest of your water down. To do this, simply water the entire surface lightly two or three times, patiently waiting each time for the water to be pulled under. Watering slowly isnt so much the point as the pause, where you allow the water to be pulled down, with oxygen right behind it.

 

[Kingsnake235]

right, ok, so i should feed them with ~1(.3) gallons of light nute solution each, in a few rounds of soaking; as per other thread.

the pots are rather light, yes. the only discrepancy i find is that the plants are not pointing up, so maybe when the lights come back on they will be.. i noticed that although the same 4 are still drooping, even the bottom leaves, the uppermost set or maybe 2 of one of the plants was starting to level out a bit, so it may be that you're a bit ahead of me on that one and they just haven't perked up yet..

either way, the meter reads dry across the board and the pots are light, so i should feed to saturation and take that as new routine;

as far as timing is concerned

i am 2 weeks behind my ideal schedule at this point (moving in march or april) so to get an idea of timing, I'm wondering how much time they need on a new feed schedule before transplanting, and how long after transplanting they need before flipping to 12/12.. you said to let them have a couple feed cycles before transplanting and i've read you should up-can 1-2 weeks before the flip, but that sounds like adding 2-4 weeks from here on?

if i could cut that to 1-2 weeks would be ideal.. i don't want to rush anything too hard but i also can't push my window too far this time around; in future i will schedule extra time more appropriately and won't have to worry about moving things around..

i guess my (maybe) final question is, would it be sufficient to water later this evening, let sit till moist, and transplant with time to recover before flipping the timer on say, the 23-25? basically allowing 4 days between water and transplant and 4 days between transplant and flip?

or is that too much stress too close together to be worth the risk with these issues at hand?

 

[Emilya Green]

well, its night time... they wont perk up at night nor should you water at night. Water them at dawn when they are reaching up and have the pumps turned on full blast.

As far as timing goes, you got to do what you got to do. Figure on at least 9 weeks for flower... from the time you hit 12/12... and it could be longer. If you got to rush to get that into the moving window, thats what you have to do.

 

[Kingsnake235]

yeah, i definitely won't water them until the lights come back on; i've at least done that pretty consistently haha

cool, i figured everyone kinda plays that by ear when and where they need to, so i'll do the same and see how the plants react.

thanks a lot for all your help and insights; heres hoping we got it figured out! ill post back here when i see results of some kind

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Wow fair bit of reading & some good advice

Just curious on what type of soil/compost you are using at present & could ya name the brand so i could take a little gander at it ?

Looks like a lot large wood chip on the surface but not sure on the entire mix/blend tho but it may suggest a water retention issue which might explain lots off run off with such little water used as mention in a past post...


Ok as an example i use 6.5 liter air pots most of the time & it takes near on 1.5 to 2 liters of water/nutrients to get run off when the pots are nearly dry with Biobizz All Mix compost... Now environmental issues such as temperature & relative humidity can effect transpiration rate of the plant to how much it/she drinks depending on stage of growth plus temperature which may effect evaporation of moisture from the pots...

Yup minor technical stuff & reasonable easy to get ya through it bit by bit & may require home work just in case !


Some teasers

You can do this ! & i still think i'm a little bit of a numptie myself at times

 

[Kingsnake235]

yeah for sure, its funny you mention that actually, cause when i was at the garden shop i noticed on the OTHER bag of the same brand's "potting soil" it says, "retains moisture" and i was like, well thats not that i want…

I'm using, seasoil original -> Original SEA SOIL? its the standard organic soil aroung here similar to FFOF as far as i can tell, but what do i know.. everyone uses this stuff around here for gardens and produce etc, and i read a number of cases online of people using the same soil with great results, but.. likely a different mix overall

i see now that even that one says retains moisture as well.. i haven't opened the bag i bought, so i could return it for something more appropriate before transplanting to 4G, if necessary.. one issue with my current soil is that i only had some medium sized lava rock that i mixed in for drainage, thinking that the soil had enough chunk and things like you say, but it appears to be quite compact in some places.. i did get a bag of perlite this time tho..

i noticed using the probe too, that it read DRY but the soil was still a bit dark, it wasn't,light and airy like a bone dry soil would be..

i watered each one last night with 4L of nutrient solution.. 3 plants @ 1.2mL/L of each - BB fish mix, BB bloom, BB bioheaven - (just over half minimum recommended) and other other 3 i gave 2.4mL/L of each (half the maximum recommended dose) just to.. you know.. see what happens, if anything..

i watered each one individually, going slowly, over the course of about 4-5 hours altogether, while doing some other things, and using the moisture probe intermittently to check the soil.. i tried to pour slowly and let it soak it a good while, not using more than 1L at a time, usually 1/2-3/4of a litre then let it sit, and repeat; but i got runoff after only the first 3-400mL just like i usually did..

on the first plant i watered, i caught all the runoff from the first 2L batch, and it only retained about 1L of that solution; after probing with the moisture meter i found it was largely just running down the sides of the pots; by the time i finished the 4th litre, they were saturated to the point that the meter said "WET" or very moist throughout the pot..

for 2-3 hours afterward there was no action or movement from any of the ladies, before i went to bed i noticed the top 2-3 sets of leaves on the very first plant i watered were starting to level out, they until then they ALL looked reaaaally soggy (leaves) and droopy..

this morning they look like they are doing better, most of the leaves on most of the plants are levelling out, with the top ones on 1-2 of them pointing up a bit, but still some sagging on the bottom leaves, and maybe a little more dry/twisting leaves on one of them..

edit to add: its decidedly difficult to tell sometimes with the lift method, i picked up a freshly watered pot and a "dry" pot and there wasn't THAT Much difference even tho i just put a gallon of water into the first

 

[Kingsnake235]

Here is as of today, the first 2 i watered

the group

and something new i noticed last night, no idea what it is, kinda hard to see, but there are dark splotchy ripples between the stems on the leaf, looks like they started on the edges and worked their way inward toward the main stem of the effect leaves. this is the front most plant in the group shot above

 

[Emilya Green]

as previously discussed, this looks like magnesium or possibly reactions to being rootbound. The watering issues seem to be resolving themselves quickly, just about as fast as you let them dry out completely... the next step will be to transplant into some fresh soil to take care of the constricted roots at the bottom. If after that we are still seeing problems that are progressing, we can look for factors causing it, but right now there are too many unknowns, and the damage you are showing us is the permanent kind, that could have happened earlier and is not going to come back.

 

[Kingsnake235]

would there be any benefit or detriment to removing the damaged leaves? will the plant waste energy trying to fix something futile that could be better spent elsewhere in the plant?

or would it just cause those issues to progress more/faster to other leaves?

 

[Emilya Green]

The only person being offended by your leaf damage is you. The leaves are damaged because the new growth needed something that was not coming in via the roots... they were cannibalized. If you remove them and the problem is not fixed, the next set of leaves up the trunk will be tapped next, removing yet another powerful storehouse of a fan leaf from your system. I never recommend removing a leaf just for the sake of aesthetics.

I do not cut damaged leaves until the plant has shriveled them up to the point that they could no longer be usable to the plant. I take great pride in fixing problems and being able to quickly notice damaged leaves, and then in reaction see leaves that once were yellow, come back to be viable. I consider a damaged leaf that has been able to hang on and get some green back, a badge of pride. I do not pick damaged leaves, I instead know that they were the means that the plant first used to communicate with me about a problem, and if she gets in trouble again, that is the first place I might see any new damage. If you look in my veg tent (I did post a picture last night) you will see several damaged lower leaves, and as I try this or that and repair or react to problems I have encountered, I watch the color come back to my lower leaves with great pride.

 

[Kingsnake235]

The leaves are damaged because the new growth needed something that was not coming in via the roots...

yeah i realize that, hence my questions about what removing them will do

If you remove them and the problem is not fixed, the next set of leaves up the trunk will be tapped next, removing yet another powerful storehouse of a fan leaf from your system.

this is what i thought, was just making sure; i wasn't planning on it, just curious.

i have only removed a couple of the very smallest bottom leaves when they totally shrivelled up, because likewise, I'm not keen on just stripping body parts of my children, heh.

thanks for the insights!