Brown Spots Into Yellow Leaves, Unable To Remedy And Need Some Guidance

[T0x1x]

it’s way too soon to think about flushing too. That plant needs full steam ahead for several more weeks my friend. This is where you throw the kitchen sink at her….

Definitely going to keep plugging away at full nutrient strength, appreciate the insight! I'll give your method a go next watering, don't think you can tell from the pics, but I cut up some old shelves to get a make-shift grate system in my plastic trays, so it should be a breeze!

Hey @T0x1x, they're lookin' pretty good!

The concept of senescence comes to my mind, and it's something I am tuning into more and more with my own grow.

In biology, senescence is the general concept of "deterioration with age." In cannabis grows, I think of it as a point where the plant is nearing the end of its normal lifecycle, which ends with flowering and producing seeds – except we don't usually grow pollinated plants.

What we ideally want is mature, ripe flowers before a lot of senescence sets in. Senescence will appear as yellowing leaves, dead spots on leaves, dead stigmas (white "hairs" turn brown/orange), and dead bracts (female reproductive parts of the flower). The term for dying plant parts is necrosis. Stigmas are the first to die, and that's normal and to be expected – it helps us determine the arrival of harvest time.

Sometime, when growing conditions are not ideal and the plant is stressed toward the end of its lifecycle, we see what I call premature senescence, meaning yellowing and necrosis are setting in too soon. One side effect is that mold and fungus can take a foothold on dead material. Another side effect is that flowers may be poorly developed, meaning small colas, and low levels of cannabinoids and terpenes.

Problems in the root zone, I think, can bring about premature senescence. It can be caused by a combination of things.

Anyway, perhaps this explains what you're seeing, in which case there's not a lot you can do – as others have said – except continue to fertigate.

That's a great word and a good way to think of it! As summer has gone on here and gotten more humid, so too has my basement. My tent is creeping into the low-mid-50's, and pertinent to your note, I think this plant may be a little susceptible to rot due to it's condition. I'm probably going to try to be proactive and get a small dehumidifier to keep it in the safe zone, though at this point, I may be helicopter-parenting everything

 

[SmokingWings]

Based on the strain info of harvest in 8-9 weeks (which seems pretty aggressive...) I have only 1-2 weeks left. They had their first real leaves around May 7th (and started bud sites at the very beginning of June) so somewhere in week 7 right now probably.

More likely than not the info of 8-9 weeks is just for the flowering time and is not including the usual 3 to 4 weeks that many auto-flowers seem to need for their vegetating stage.

You mention the quoted line in the first message "6 weeks after the sprouts opened the cotyledons. I'd say 2-3 weeks into flowering." and then yesterday "...started bud sites at the very beginning of June". Even if the flowering started on the 1st of June it has only been 4 weeks as of today. So I would be figuring another 4 to 5 weeks.

Plus the buds are healthy looking and have some real nice clear to white stigma and pistils. As long as the plant is producing those it is still actively in the early flowering stage. When the buds are closer to the maturing stage they will stop growing new stigma/pistils and start letting the tricomes mature and start bulking up the buds. And that final bulking up in size and the increase in quality is a very fascinating time.

 

[T0x1x]

Hey All - Weekly update time (ha). Again if it makes sense for me to break off this thread - or just stop filling your inboxes - let me know!

The leaves have started developing a dappled yellow spotting pattern to them. I'm a little worried about Septoria, but the spots don't really have the brown raised bump... just browning in the center of the yellow as the leaf slowly dies. I'm guessing it's just continued senescence as @cbdhemp808 mentioned, unless people think otherwise.

The concept of senescence comes to my mind, and it's something I am tuning into more and more with my own grow.

The main thing I'm trying to prevent now is bud rot. I've got the tent back down to 46-48% RH and 76-78F temps, so I think it's a low risk, but with the amount of leaves showing stress, it's something that I'm thinking about. As a new grower, it's the another thing that is a little intimidating. I would really hate to not see it and share this gift with friends/family, but potentially endanger them from rot being present. The plant is still putting out tons of white pistils despite the stress, so I'm guessing it's still full steam ahead. In fact, I'm wondering if I'm seeing the start of a couple foxtails. My light is set at the manufacturers recommended distance, so it might just be little clumps coming off the flowers. You can see in the pic below, middle left of the bud.

Bonus Pic of other plant - pretty wild how different it looks (GSC Auto planted the same time and getting the same treatment). This one isn't popping many white pistils at all, and many have already browned/curled. Very little sign of bud at all at this point, but looks very happy.

 

[cbdhemp808]

This looks like downy mildew, not septoria. Look for dark grey spots on the underside of the leaves. If you find that, the fungus-like organism has already sporulated (released spores). Downy mildew attacks the inside of leaves and then sporulates out the bottom side. Not much you can do at that point. You can pluck off infected leaves. My plants commonly get both septoria and downy mildew, especially during flower. Some phenos are naturally more resistant. You could try a foliar spray of microbes including trichoderma, using a product like Mikrobs or Recharge (both called "microbial superpack"). You could also water-in the same. Trichoderma in the root zone communicates with the plant and activates the plant's defenses.

Good luck with your grow!

 

[CaptainLucky]

This looks like downy mildew, not septoria. Look for dark grey spots on the underside of the leaves. If you find that, the fungus-like organism has already sporulated (released spores). Downy mildew attacks the inside of leaves and then sporulates out the bottom side. Not much you can do at that point. You can pluck off infected leaves. My plants commonly get both septoria and downy mildew, especially during flower. Some phenos are naturally more resistant. You could try a foliar spray of microbes including trichoderma, using a product like Mikrobs or Recharge (both called "microbial superpack"). You could also water-in the same. Trichoderma in the root zone communicates with the plant and activates the plant's defenses.

Good luck with your grow!

@Danishoes21 does a foliar tea with willow and silica that’s only thing I’ve seen that helps prevents bud rot. Good luck n happy growing. CL.

 

[cbdhemp808]

Hey @T0x1x,

I battle with bud rot constantly here in Hawaii growing outdoors. I have not found a good way to prevent it, so I am now concentrating on growing very bud rot resistant strains. I've tried different foliar sprays with not much luck... foliar teas, microbe tea, ... various other things including hydrogen peroxide.

My best advice is to keep a sharp eye out for bud rot as you approach harvest time. When the stigmas start turning brown (the white hairs), this is a cue to be on the lookout for bud rot. Dead stigmas, bracts (pistils), and sugar leaves getting dead spots – these are fertile ground for bud rot to develop. So as more of this is happening, the chances of bud rot spores taking hold increases. I have realized that if bud rot is likely to occur, then you've got a "harvest window," and that window can be surprisingly brief, like 1 or 2 days. If bud rot sneaks into the buds, you won't know it and you can lose all or most of the harvest. Sometimes bud rot will be more localized, and you'll see one or a few buds starting to be infected, but the rest will be completely clean. Sometimes you'll get the "rapid onset" kind where you think there's not a problem, and then poof ! ... the next day most of the buds are riddled with it.

So, learn to identify early signs of bud rot, and then be vigilant to inspect, including opening buds up a little to look inside. You may need to harvest early, before trichomes are the ideal ripeness, but harvesting early is better than losing most or all of the harvest.

good luck!

 

[T0x1x]

This looks like downy mildew, not septoria. Look for dark grey spots on the underside of the leaves. If you find that, the fungus-like organism has already sporulated (released spores).

I took a look, and even on the most advanced/damaged leaves (which are basically now fully yellow) there is no sign on gray spots on the bottom, or spots on the bottom at all.

I have realized that if bud rot is likely to occur, then you've got a "harvest window," and that window can be surprisingly brief, like 1 or 2 days.

I think this is my biggest concern. Since my buds are still putting out all sorts of white pistils still, everything I read online is "not ready for harvest yet", however the leaves are certainly on the way out and some of the pistils have browned. While I think my risk for bud rot is low (45-48% RH, 77F, good airflow/circulation), the dying parts probably add some risk. Do I cut and run at some point even if the pistils are still white and the trichs are clear?

By the way, really appreciate all the insight you've offered over the past couple of weeks!

 

[cbdhemp808]

I took a look, and even on the most advanced/damaged leaves (which are basically now fully yellow) there is no sign on gray spots on the bottom, or spots on the bottom at all.

Hmm, could be either septoria or downy mildew, or another fungus or fungus-like organism, in early stages. It doesn't look to me like the pattern of a nutrient deficiency. It could be nutrient-related and/or disease, brought on by senescence.

I think this is my biggest concern. Since my buds are still putting out all sorts of white pistils still, everything I read online is "not ready for harvest yet", however the leaves are certainly on the way out and some of the pistils have browned. While I think my risk for bud rot is low (45-48% RH, 77F, good airflow/circulation), the dying parts probably add some risk. Do I cut and run at some point even if the pistils are still white and the trichs are clear?

Leaves can go surprisingly bad and not effect the harvest too much. Just keep looking for the early signs of bud rot. If you don't see it, then let the flowers continue to mature. If you do start to see it, you should harvest immediately. Then it's a matter of closely inspecting what you harvest and clipping out any infected areas. I use a headlamp and high-magnification reading glasses. Sometimes it's best to just remove a whole bud rather than try to clip out the bud rot. If you find yourself removing lots of bud rot, I call this a salvage harvest. In that situation, you may only salvage a small amount of buds, but it's better than nothing.

If you look around in the mid-to-later part of my thread re: my quest for mold resistant strains (link in my signature) you can see some photos of bud rot.

 

[T0x1x]

Hmm, could be either septoria or downy mildew, or another fungus or fungus-like organism, in early stages. It doesn't look to me like the pattern of a nutrient deficiency. It could be nutrient-related and/or disease, brought on by senescence.


Leaves can go surprisingly bad and not effect the harvest too much. Just keep looking for the early signs of bud rot. If you don't see it, then let the flowers continue to mature. If you do start to see it, you should harvest immediately. Then it's a matter of closely inspecting what you harvest and clipping out any infected areas. I use a headlamp and high-magnification reading glasses. Sometimes it's best to just remove a whole bud rather than try to clip out the bud rot. If you find yourself removing lots of bud rot, I call this a salvage harvest. In that situation, you may only salvage a small amount of buds, but it's better than nothing.

If you look around in the mid-to-later part of my thread re: my quest for mold resistant strains (link in my signature) you can see some photos of bud rot.

Makes sense to me. I'm not sure if you saw my other post today... but the other plant in this tent just popped a bunch of nanners... I'm guessing that means that this flower is in trouble from 2 avenues - disease/stress AND trying to get pollinated.

I'm really going through the wringer here on my first grow lol. I'm not sure what to do with this one now honestly, if I should watch it for rot and seeds now? Or just call it good... tough.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I'll let the others chime in here. I'm taking a month off from the forum.

 

[Keffka]

I battle with bud rot constantly here in Hawaii growing outdoors. I have not found a good way to prevent it, so I am now concentrating on growing very bud rot resistant strains

Bud rot is directly related to airflow and air exchange. Your ability to replace the moist old air with new fresh air consistently will have the greatest impact. This is hard to accomplish on larger, more robust outdoor plants, especially in the middle of the plant.

My MIL and her brother both battled with bud rot outdoors for years.. they’ve lost well over 30-40 pounds to it.. We tried everything you could think of to include putting fans OUTSIDE near the plants to keep the air flowing. She tried sprays and preventatives and got nothing. I’m not surprised in a place like Hawaii that this is an issue. I am a little surprised the ocean air isn’t enough on its own, maybe due to salinity?

The only method we could replicate success with was aggressive training. We would have to prune and tie down branches to open up the plants. Once we did this it stopped happening. However, this wound up being an incredible amount of work, and looking at some of your grows, I think it would be even more work than we had to do. So yeah, maybe shoot for BR resistance

What is your wind like there? I had this belief that in places like yours there would always be at least a gentle breeze happening.

 

[Keffka]

Okay OP here we go.. (I apologize if I sound curt, I’m trying to get through without overwhelming you with extras) Based on all of your posts, pictures, replies, and information this is what I’m seeing:

Improper watering.. this one will devastate most new growers. Almost every new grower is positive they’re watering correctly and almost every new grower is not watering correctly. You’re both under and over watering . Overwatering happens over time and from watering multiple times when the plant isn’t ready for it. You cannot give the plant too much water in one watering, you just can’t. You’ll leech out the soil and nutrients before you drown the plant. However if the soil never fully dries out and you add water on top of that, the plants roots never get access to oxygen. Your plant is stuck in a limbo of not fully drying out but not getting enough water either. Watering issues will cause you to see a range of problems in your plants. Weird deficiencies that don’t make sense, odd growth, stuff that looks PH related, the skies the limit on what can occur.

Nutrients. At multiple points you’ve stated you used half strength nutrients or added something to the trio or for some reason did not use the nutrient system as directed. This shouldn’t happen. You should follow the directions on these nutrient systems very carefully. If it tells you a certain strength at a certain day, you need to feed that specific strength on that day. Most of these nutrient lines have been very carefully concocted and devised, the directions they give you have been tested and vetted. The minute you start messing with nutrient strength without understanding every single nutrient in the bottle and why you’re adjusting the strength is the minute problems start occurring. Most nutrient lines and especially multi part nutrient lines are balanced to the directions. This means, if you’re not feeding the strength directed, you’re unbalancing the nutrient line and likely the plant. Follow the directions to the letter. Once you’ve grown a few grows successfully you’ll begin to understand and learn the nuances of growing and your nutrients. Then you can start adjusting and experimenting.

Both of these issues alone can cause a lot of stress to the plants. Put them together and you have a recipe for a hermaphrodite. @Melville Hobbes and I have discussed hermaphrodites and his belief that it’s a sign of weak genetics more than anything. This could be true as well. You could just have weak genetics prone to herming. He has had more experience with a wider range of genetics than I have so I’ll let him glance over and see if he has any recommendations about it. Personally I believe you had a sensitive gene pool that was triggered to hermaphrodite due to the inconsistent watering and feeding. This likely shocked and stressed the plant into believing it was going to die and it needed to reproduce.

@Emilya Green tutorial on how to properly water a plant in a container bears repeating. Personally I sat down in front of my plants with the thread open multiple times and followed along almost exactly. A spout watering can works fine just have to be a little slower and more thorough. If you’re still struggling you can buy a smaller sprinkle watering can for like 15$ on Amazon.

Here’s the link to her guide:
The Proper Way To Water A Potted Plant

If you prefer autos and want to keep growing them you may wanna check out this thread from her as well:
The Proper Way To Water A Seedling In A Large Final Container

You’re overthinking your grow OP.. get the basics of watering and feeding correctly down and almost all of your other issues will correct themselves.

 

[Azimuth]

Or, another alternative to the wet/dry cycle is growing in SIPs. Those containers grow great plants and eliminate the guesswork of when to water since the plant waters itself.

 

[Keffka]

Or, another alternative to the wet/dry cycle is growing in SIPs. Those containers grow great plants and eliminate the guesswork of when to water since the plant waters itself.

I swear you intentionally look for my text walls to illustrate how simple and effective your solution is compared to my ranting

But yes OP Az is correct.. SIPs take out the guesswork. If you use those before fully learning the wet dry cycle you won’t have to unlearn or fight your instincts.

 

[Azimuth]

I swear you intentionally look for my text walls to illustrate how simple and effective your solution is compared to my ranting

But yes OP Az is correct.. SIPs take out the guesswork. If you use those before fully learning the wet dry cycle you won’t have to unlearn or fight your instincts.

Ha! Nope. It's just when I see growers, especially new growers, with watering issues it's just a stupid simple solution to offer up. True, you don't get to learn about proper watering techniques, but that's not why we're here. At least most of us just want big healthy plants with lots of bud.

Lots of ways to get there, but the SIP makes it so damn easy.

But your "text walls" are always informative and provide lots of great information that otherwise take a long time and lots of experience to acquire.

 

[CaptainLucky]

Hey @T0x1x,

I battle with bud rot constantly here in Hawaii growing outdoors. I have not found a good way to prevent it, so I am now concentrating on growing very bud rot resistant strains. I've tried different foliar sprays with not much luck... foliar teas, microbe tea, ... various other things including hydrogen peroxide.

My best advice is to keep a sharp eye out for bud rot as you approach harvest time. When the stigmas start turning brown (the white hairs), this is a cue to be on the lookout for bud rot. Dead stigmas, bracts (pistils), and sugar leaves getting dead spots – these are fertile ground for bud rot to develop. So as more of this is happening, the chances of bud rot spores taking hold increases. I have realized that if bud rot is likely to occur, then you've got a "harvest window," and that window can be surprisingly brief, like 1 or 2 days. If bud rot sneaks into the buds, you won't know it and you can lose all or most of the harvest. Sometimes bud rot will be more localized, and you'll see one or a few buds starting to be infected, but the rest will be completely clean. Sometimes you'll get the "rapid onset" kind where you think there's not a problem, and then poof ! ... the next day most of the buds are riddled with it.

So, learn to identify early signs of bud rot, and then be vigilant to inspect, including opening buds up a little to look inside. You may need to harvest early, before trichomes are the ideal ripeness, but harvesting early is better than losing most or all of the harvest.

good luck!

Have you tried doing a daily foliar of Willow and Silica? I seen @Danishoes21 have some success using it last year. Growing outdoors in B.C. last fall with a lot of rain. Prime conditions for bud rot and none at all. CL

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Okay OP here we go.. (I apologize if I sound curt, I’m trying to get through without overwhelming you with extras) Based on all of your posts, pictures, replies, and information this is what I’m seeing:

Improper watering.. this one will devastate most new growers. Almost every new grower is positive they’re watering correctly and almost every new grower is not watering correctly. You’re both under and over watering . Overwatering happens over time and from watering multiple times when the plant isn’t ready for it. You cannot give the plant too much water in one watering, you just can’t. You’ll leech out the soil and nutrients before you drown the plant. However if the soil never fully dries out and you add water on top of that, the plants roots never get access to oxygen. Your plant is stuck in a limbo of not fully drying out but not getting enough water either. Watering issues will cause you to see a range of problems in your plants. Weird deficiencies that don’t make sense, odd growth, stuff that looks PH related, the skies the limit on what can occur.

Nutrients. At multiple points you’ve stated you used half strength nutrients or added something to the trio or for some reason did not use the nutrient system as directed. This shouldn’t happen. You should follow the directions on these nutrient systems very carefully. If it tells you a certain strength at a certain day, you need to feed that specific strength on that day. Most of these nutrient lines have been very carefully concocted and devised, the directions they give you have been tested and vetted. The minute you start messing with nutrient strength without understanding every single nutrient in the bottle and why you’re adjusting the strength is the minute problems start occurring. Most nutrient lines and especially multi part nutrient lines are balanced to the directions. This means, if you’re not feeding the strength directed, you’re unbalancing the nutrient line and likely the plant. Follow the directions to the letter. Once you’ve grown a few grows successfully you’ll begin to understand and learn the nuances of growing and your nutrients. Then you can start adjusting and experimenting.

Both of these issues alone can cause a lot of stress to the plants. Put them together and you have a recipe for a hermaphrodite. @Melville Hobbes and I have discussed hermaphrodites and his belief that it’s a sign of weak genetics more than anything. This could be true as well. You could just have weak genetics prone to herming. He has had more experience with a wider range of genetics than I have so I’ll let him glance over and see if he has any recommendations about it. Personally I believe you had a sensitive gene pool that was triggered to hermaphrodite due to the inconsistent watering and feeding. This likely shocked and stressed the plant into believing it was going to die and it needed to reproduce.

@Emilya Green tutorial on how to properly water a plant in a container bears repeating. Personally I sat down in front of my plants with the thread open multiple times and followed along almost exactly. A spout watering can works fine just have to be a little slower and more thorough. If you’re still struggling you can buy a smaller sprinkle watering can for like 15$ on Amazon.

Here’s the link to her guide:
The Proper Way To Water A Potted Plant

If you prefer autos and want to keep growing them you may wanna check out this thread from her as well:
The Proper Way To Water A Seedling In A Large Final Container

You’re overthinking your grow OP.. get the basics of watering and feeding correctly down and almost all of your other issues will correct themselves.

Thanks for the tag Keff.
I do believe that genetics play a big role in hermaphrodite plants, based mostly on the forms of the male flowers that appear.
Do you have any pics of the flowers?
Boiling it down, any seeds produced from a plant that presents as female, but then produces fully formed male flowers, petals and all have grown into hermaphrodites themselves, no matter what conditions they're subjected to.
Seeds from a plant that pollinated itself by throwing out a few anthers (bananas, nanners) have grown female plants when grown in low stress environments, but often those plants were prone to throwing out nanners when subjected to varying levels of stress.

 

[Melville Hobbes]

Leaves can go surprisingly bad and not effect the harvest too much.

I completely agree with this.
My winter grows this year started with contaminated soil, and while yields were compromised they made it to harvest with terrible leaf damage.

 

[Keffka]

I completely agree with this.
My winter grows this year started with contaminated soil, and while yields were compromised they made it to harvest with terrible leaf damage.

Same agreement:

My first journal. I lost around 75% of the leaves off this plant. Every single leaf was afflicted with one deficiency or another, there’s a bunch of necrotic leaves all over and the entire plant looks like it went 12 rounds with Tyson (Fury or Mike, take your pick )

This grow was organic as well, so it wasn’t even being propped up by a nutrient line. It still finished with a fair yield and incredibly strong buds that tasted smooth and flavorful.

 

[T0x1x]

So many awesome responses, thank you all! Let me go after them:

Okay OP here we go.. (I apologize if I sound curt, I’m trying to get through without overwhelming you with extras) Based on all of your posts, pictures, replies, and information this is what I’m seeing:

....

You’re overthinking your grow OP.. get the basics of watering and feeding correctly down and almost all of your other issues will correct themselves.

Wow, thank you so much for the detailed run down. So many things to do differently the next time. I did a lot of research and planning prior to this first grow, but experience definitely seems be the main way to do well It's kinda wild how differently each plant reacted to the stress. I thought the herm plant was actually doing really well - it's leaves were in good shape (up until the last few weeks, which I just assumed was from turning to flower) whereas the other plant was looking ROUGH. Turns out that the one missing a bunch of leaves and looking like a leopard is going to be potentially ok... with maybe a few seeds starting to turn up if I'm unlucky.

Or, another alternative to the wet/dry cycle is growing in SIPs. Those containers grow great plants and eliminate the guesswork of when to water since the plant waters itself.

I've never seen these before and maybe these are just what I need... Although, I would like to try to get better at my watering so I'm just doing it right and know how to 'independently' water lol. I might have to give these a go on my next try. At the very least, they could remove one variable for me to have to work on!

Thanks for the tag Keff.
I do believe that genetics play a big role in hermaphrodite plants, based mostly on the forms of the male flowers that appear.
Do you have any pics of the flowers?
...
Seeds from a plant that pollinated itself by throwing out a few anthers (bananas, nanners) have grown female plants when grown in low stress environments, but often those plants were prone to throwing out nanners when subjected to varying levels of stress.

Maybe I'm purchasing from the wrong place, but the seeds I have were from Nirvana and had decent ratings. But the level of stress the plant had maybe had much more to do with it. I'm actually growing another one outside right now and it looks QUITE a bit different already, only 5 weeks in. Not so bushy, massive leaves, and compact like the one that hermed. Might have been a sign there.

I completely agree with this.
My winter grows this year started with contaminated soil, and while yields were compromised they made it to harvest with terrible leaf damage.

Same agreement:
My first journal. I lost around 75% of the leaves off this plant. Every single leaf was afflicted with one deficiency or another, there’s a bunch of necrotic leaves all over and the entire plant looks like it went 12 rounds with Tyson (Fury or Mike, take your pick )

This grow was organic as well, so it wasn’t even being propped up by a nutrient line. It still finished with a fair yield and incredibly strong buds that tasted smooth and flavorful.

It makes me feel a lot better to see how these turned out. Now all I gotta hope is not too many seeds pop up!

Again, thanks all for the encouragement. I've isolated the nanner-plant and will chop it up tonight... I'm gonna try to make canna-butter out of it, but honestly, not expecting too much/anything. Since this was all sudden, I have been feeding nutrients to it until now. Hopefully it's so few that it won't leach it's way into the edibles vs. had I had a week or two to flush with plain water.