Canoeing leaves

[Cheschire]

Hello again! I have 2 girls in 4th week of veg, and 3 days ago the top new growth leaves started to drop and canoe. It almost looks like nitrogen toxicity and potassium deficiency between the new growth and older fan leaves. They are in 5 gal. pots with fox farm ocean forest, with 1Tbs Earth Juice Rainbow Mix organic grow nutrients added at transplant 3 weeks ago. Plants are runts strain grown from seed in fox farm happy frog. R/O water ph 6.3 at watering...just started 1/2 tsp Calmag per gallon water last watering. Plants are in 2x4x6 tent with mars hydro tsl 2000 led light, temp. 72-75 f, humidity around 45-55%, 3 fans in tent.

 

[Bogus Monkey]

It looks like top leaves to me so first concern "for me only" is how close is the light to the top of the plant? I'm headed to bed and will check in the AM. Hopefully others chime in. Everything looks nice up to this point and you should have plenty of help soon. So my guess, I don't consider myself a beginner but I'm def not a pro yet.. - raise the light and see what happens.

 

[Bogus Monkey]

People will ask about P A R. I don't have one of those meters yet but I plan on getting one. Some phones are capable of running a P A R ap. Hopefully I got that right, (PAR), it has to do with light intensity.

 

[bluter]

your lacking some mag. temps are a touch high but well within range.

how close is your light to the tops of the plants ?

 

[Cheschire]

your lacking some mag. temps are a touch high but well within range.

how close is your light to the tops of the plants ?

The light is 32" from top of tallest plant, I also only have the light % set on 50% strength, my ppf meter says everything is in the proper settings and height. I definitely concur on the magnesium

 

[Bill284]

Hello again! I have 2 girls in 4th week of veg, and 3 days ago the top new growth leaves started to drop and canoe. It almost looks like nitrogen toxicity and potassium deficiency between the new growth and older fan leaves. They are in 5 gal. pots with fox farm ocean forest, with 1Tbs Earth Juice Rainbow Mix organic grow nutrients added at transplant 3 weeks ago. Plants are runts strain grown from seed in fox farm happy frog. R/O water ph 6.3 at watering...just started 1/2 tsp Calmag per gallon water last watering. Plants are in 2x4x6 tent with mars hydro tsl 2000 led light, temp. 72-75 f, humidity around 45-55%, 3 fans in tent.

Your overwatering.
Let them dry right out completely dry.DRY DRY DRY.
Then feed full strength nutrients.
Wait until dry again 3 - 4 - maby 5 days Then give plain water.
Let dry dry dry again.
Then feed again.
Dry.
Water.
Feed.
Dry.
Water
Repeat until harvest................
They will green up and look much better.
But you are doing a pretty good job so far.
Hope everything is going well my friend.
Take care.




Stay safe
Bill284

 

[Cheschire]

Your overwatering.
Let them dry right out completely dry.DRY DRY DRY.
Then feed full strength nutrients.
Wait until dry again 3 - 4 - maby 5 days Then give plain water.
Let dry dry dry again.
Then feed again.
Dry.
Water.
Feed.
Dry.
Water
Repeat until harvest................
They will green up and look much better.
But you are doing a pretty good job so far.
Hope everything is going well my friend.
Take care.




Stay safe
Bill284

They were dry, 5 days between watering, super light when picked up the pot, been watering once every 5-7 days until dried out

 

[Bill284]

They were dry, 5 days between watering, super light when picked up the pot, been watering once every 5-7 days until dried out

You have fluffy droopy leaves, usually the sign of overwatering or small root structure.
Did you build roots?




Stay safe
Bill284

 

[Cheschire]

You have fluffy droopy leaves, usually the sign of overwatering or small root structure.
Did you build roots?




Stay safe
Bill284

Yes, for sure, solid root ball when going from 1gal pot to 5 gal pot, roots are shooting out the drain holes right now, good healthy white clusters. I turned my lights down to 40% strength before I left for work today. I'm totally with you on the drooping due to overwatering but I can 100% assure you they have not been overwatered by any means

 

[Bill284]

Yes, for sure, solid root ball when going from 1gal pot to 5 gal pot, roots are shooting out the drain holes right now, good healthy white clusters. I turned my lights down to 40% strength before I left for work today. I'm totally with you on the drooping due to overwatering but I can 100% assure you they have not been overwatered by any means

Ok sorry. what's your rh , temp and airflow like?




Stay safe
Bill284

 

[Hayron1088]

What about night time temps and RH? I’ve seen my plants act that way being below 65f at night. I was going to say over water also but maybe the beginning of Nitrogen deficiency

 

[bluter]

show us a shot of the whole tent. they should be ready to flip but something's not quite happy. pulling the light back can give them a break, but the plants should be able handle more intensity by now.

check your circulation fans, try not to aim them at the plants directly. the canoe could be a wind reaction. beside the mag, you look just on the edge of underfed as well.

 

[Cheschire]

Ok sorry. what's your rh , temp and airflow like?




Stay safe
Bill284

70- 75 degree F between lights on and off, 45-50% relative humidity, 1 fan blowing on the underside of leaves, 2 fans 12 inches above canopy angled to wear not directly blowing on tops of plants

 

[Cheschire]

show us a shot of the whole tent. they should be ready to flip but something's not quite happy. pulling the light back can give them a break, but the plants should be able handle more intensity by now.

check your circulation fans, try not to aim them at the plants directly. the canoe could be a wind reaction. beside the mag, you look just on the edge of underfed as well.

Will get a full tent pic tonight, I'm feeling ya on the underfed and magnesium

 

[bluter]

Will get a full tent pic tonight, I'm feeling ya on the underfed and magnesium

they're not really bad at all. i've had plants look around the same and never worried about it. couple small tweaks and you should be bang on.

 

[Cheschire]

they're not really bad at all. i've had plants look around the same and never worried about it. couple small tweaks and you should be bang on.

Yah, I dealt with this about a year and a half ago, I just can't remember what it was and what I did to remedy it, I also failed to document the pics I took for my photo journal references

 

[Gee64]

Your RH is way to low. It should be at 55-60. Do a bit of reading on vpd. In a nutshell its the way the atmosphere drives your plant. At 45% your plants are running way to fast. The cupped leaves are from the plant being overdriven by the light for the humidity level you are at. The plant is a pump. It takes water from the soil which has nutes in it, pumps them up to the leaves, and uses the nutes for photosynthesis. After PS(photosynthesis) has happened the CO2 has been split. The plant keeps the C( carbon,sugar) and releases the O2 with the used water out the stomata on the underside of the leaves. When you lower the humidity it widens the RH gap between the inside of the plant (always 100% rh, as its full of water) and the room RH which evaporates that used water quicker, causing suction, for lack of a better term, and revs the plant. The light powers the PS and can also rev the plant by splitting CO2 faster and causing water to push out the stomata quicker. Room temp is also a factor but you are in the ballpark but in veg it should be a bit warmer. The plant is trying everything it can to slow down so its cupping its leaves to avoid light to slow PS. VPD will initially bend your brain but its actually quite simple. Read a bit on it and download a VPD calculator from the app store but get one that has 3 inputs not 2. It should allow room temp, leaf temp, and RH to be input. You will need an infrared thermometer to take the leaf temp. Moving the light closer raises leaf temp and farther away lowers leaf temp. When the light is at the correct height the leaves should be 2 degrees cooler than the air. Thats what the plant wants. 2 degrees is perfect for that transpiration out the stomata that I mentioned. As for the hungry look it could need a feeding but..... with the plant revving so fast you may simply not be able to provide it enough calories for the speed its running at and it appears to be starving, even tho its got enough food. It doesnt have enough feeder roots( the roots poking out bottom will be water roots) to supply enough food for the pace its running at. You wont know for sure if its out of food or simply running to fast until you fix your vpd. At 75 degrees you need 58% humidity for a good veg speed, and then move the light or dim/brighten it until the leaf temps at the top of the plant are pretty close to 2 degrees lower. I say pretty close because lower tops may not be optimal but the highest top is stressed the most so you need to cater to it. Get the main cola dialed. The vpd calculator will allow you to run scenarios so you can decide which route to go, as in lowering light or changing rh, etc as the plant progresses. Also find a vpd chart, theres a ton online, one for cannabis, and it will guide you for your vpd levels as the grow progresses to flower. VPD sounds complicated but its actually really easy once you get it so just read a bit on it. The plant, when it runs too fast, is sweating. Like humans, excessive sweating can require extra magnesium. I would also give it a light feeding, and I do mean light, as per the mixing instructions, of Cal-Mag. Its a great rescue tool as the mag always helps but the calcium, which most people think is a nute, and it is, also sets the EC of the soil and electrically opens the soil up to allow air in. Tight soil can easily mimic overwatering as water cuts off air too so tight soil and overwatering can look the same. Use cal mag gently. low doses more often will be wayyyyyy more beneficial. Too much Cal will raise the EC too high and fry the plants. Earthworm castings are a fantastic source of bio-available calcium. Calcium is heavy so it always goes down and eventually out with the runoff so topdressing regularly with EWC( Earth Worm Castings) will keep fresh proper calcium up top trickling down.

So in a nutshell...
1 Raise your RH to 58-60.
2.Give Cal-Mag.
3.Learn VPD basics to get the light at the right height.
4.Get some EWC.
Then... if your plant still has a problem it will be really easy to diagnose without any tail-chasing. Also dont judge your plants future by the state of the damaged leaves as they have scars now, only watch the new growth or for new problems on the older leaves, but the scars that are already there wont go away. Its not a big deal because by the time you start flower most of the scarred leaves will be defoliated. It doesnt really look hungry as its not cannabalizing itself. Sorry theres no short answer but you caught it and its an easy fix with only basic vpd knowledge. Blackstrap mollasses is a great source of calcium, magnesium, potassium, iron, and a whole lot more. Its cheap and it works but right now I would use the Cal-Mag as its stronger. Moving forwards any time your plant looks like it needs a pick-me-up some molasses will always help. Just dont feed it regularly. It will make the soil biology stop eating soil and only target the mollasses, but every couple weeks wont do any harm. Too much can also change the taste of the weed.

 

[Cheschire]

Your RH is way to low. It should be at 55-60. Do a bit of reading on vpd. In a nutshell its the way the atmosphere drives your plant. At 45% your plants are running way to fast. The cupped leaves are from the plant being overdriven by the light for the humidity level you are at. The plant is a pump. It takes water from the soil which has nutes in it, pumps them up to the leaves, and uses the nutes for photosynthesis. After PS(photosynthesis) has happened the CO2 has been split. The plant keeps the C( carbon,sugar) and releases the O2 with the used water out the stomata on the underside of the leaves. When you lower the humidity it widens the RH gap between the inside of the plant (always 100% rh, as its full of water) and the room RH which evaporates that used water quicker, causing suction, for lack of a better term, and revs the plant. The light powers the PS and can also rev the plant by splitting CO2 faster and causing water to push out the stomata quicker. Room temp is also a factor but you are in the ballpark but in veg it should be a bit warmer. The plant is trying everything it can to slow down so its cupping its leaves to avoid light to slow PS. VPD will initially bend your brain but its actually quite simple. Read a bit on it and download a VPD calculator from the app store but get one that has 3 inputs not 2. It should allow room temp, leaf temp, and RH to be input. You will need an infrared thermometer to take the leaf temp. Moving the light closer raises leaf temp and farther away lowers leaf temp. When the light is at the correct height the leaves should be 2 degrees cooler than the air. Thats what the plant wants. 2 degrees is perfect for that transpiration out the stomata that I mentioned. As for the hungry look it could need a feeding but..... with the plant revving so fast you may simply not be able to provide it enough calories for the speed its running at and it appears to be starving, even tho its got enough food. It doesnt have enough feeder roots( the roots poking out bottom will be water roots) to supply enough food for the pace its running at. You wont know for sure if its out of food or simply running to fast until you fix your vpd. At 75 degrees you need 58% humidity for a good veg speed, and then move the light or dim/brighten it until the leaf temps at the top of the plant are pretty close to 2 degrees lower. I say pretty close because lower tops may not be optimal but the highest top is stressed the most so you need to cater to it. Get the main cola dialed. The vpd calculator will allow you to run scenarios so you can decide which route to go, as in lowering light or changing rh, etc as the plant progresses. Also find a vpd chart, theres a ton online, one for cannabis, and it will guide you for your vpd levels as the grow progresses to flower. VPD sounds complicated but its actually really easy once you get it so just read a bit on it. The plant, when it runs too fast, is sweating. Like humans, excessive sweating can require extra magnesium. I would also give it a light feeding, and I do mean light, as per the mixing instructions, of Cal-Mag. Its a great rescue tool as the mag always helps but the calcium, which most people think is a nute, and it is, also sets the EC of the soil and electrically opens the soil up to allow air in. Tight soil can easily mimic overwatering as water cuts off air too so tight soil and overwatering can look the same. Use cal mag gently. low doses more often will be wayyyyyy more beneficial. Too much Cal will raise the EC too high and fry the plants. Earthworm castings are a fantastic source of bio-available calcium. Calcium is heavy so it always goes down and eventually out with the runoff so topdressing regularly with EWC( Earth Worm Castings) will keep fresh proper calcium up top trickling down.

So in a nutshell...
1 Raise your RH to 58-60.
2.Give Cal-Mag.
3.Learn VPD basics to get the light at the right height.
4.Get some EWC.
Then... if your plant still has a problem it will be really easy to diagnose without any tail-chasing. Also dont judge your plants future by the state of the damaged leaves as they have scars now, only watch the new growth or for new problems on the older leaves, but the scars that are already there wont go away. Its not a big deal because by the time you start flower most of the scarred leaves will be defoliated. It doesnt really look hungry as its not cannabalizing itself. Sorry theres no short answer but you caught it and its an easy fix with only basic vpd knowledge. Blackstrap mollasses is a great source of calcium, magnesium, potassium, iron, and a whole lot more. Its cheap and it works but right now I would use the Cal-Mag as its stronger. Moving forwards any time your plant looks like it needs a pick-me-up some molasses will always help. Just dont feed it regularly. It will make the soil biology stop eating soil and only target the mollasses, but every couple weeks wont do any harm. Too much can also change the taste of the weed.

I did add some recharge which has blackstrap molasses and another TBS of grow nutes yesterday. Would setting a pan of water in the tent help to raise RH?

 

[Gee64]

I did add some recharge which has blackstrap molasses and another TBS of grow nutes yesterday. Would setting a pan of water in the tent help to raise RH?

It will. I live in a desert so I got a flood tray and keep it wet when my humidity plummets, which is often. What I found really helped was an Inkbird ihc-200 wireless humidity controller.You can very easily set its parameters on your phone from the controller app. It has 2 plugin sockets. One for a humidifier and 1 for a dehumidifier. I plug my exhaust fan into the dehumidifier and then use 10gal fabric pots, which hold alot of water, and the flood tray. This ensures my humidity can climb, then when it hits 48-60%, depending on growth stage, the fan comes on. When humidity vents the fan shuts off. If I simply cant keep the humidity high enough its time to water.

 

[Cheschire]

It will. I live in a desert so I got a flood tray and keep it wet when my humidity plummets, which is often. What I found really helped was an Inkbird ihc-200 wireless humidity controller.You can very easily set its parameters on your phone from the controller app. It has 2 plugin sockets. One for a humidifier and 1 for a dehumidifier. I plug my exhaust fan into the dehumidifier and then use 10gal fabric pots, which hold alot of water, and the flood tray. This ensures my humidity can climb, then when it hits 48-60%, depending on growth stage, the fan comes on. When humidity vents the fan shuts off. If I simply cant keep the humidity high enough its time to water.

Definitely will look into that, we will be moving and I will be doubling my grow space and that is an awesome bit of information