Critique my Living Soil recipe

[bobrown14]

What's this pH you speak of??

When you worry about it and include Coco in the convo I start thinking you're running soil-less and get confused.

IF you're running soil as long as the whatever pH test you're doing doesn't register off the charts either way, you're probably going to be great.

Oyster Shell flour - is a VERY important input. I would add more not less. Some plants and many of the good common strains, are Ca magnets. The soil pH will change on a minute to minute basis (if you could do a proper test), as the soil microbes work with the root exudate. They regulate the soil pH - that's how they communicate - symbiotic relationships. Root exudes sugars for the microbes with a specific pH - soil microbes eat exudate and poop out what the plants roots are looking for.

Pretty cool shit right there!

 

[Diatomacious]

I don't worry about the microbes or trying to feed them... I'm trying to feed the plant. The microbes will find their way to the organic matter regardless of what you do. They simply do what they do and eat the organic matter leaving behind less complex molecular structures of nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium (though potassium seems to work mostly by leeching in solution). Of course this is a very simple view as they do other things like nitrogen fixing (lot's of different bacteria) and that's where the plant exudes sugars to attract the microbes it needs in that soil condition.

So far it's looking like I was wrong about the phosphorous level in the mix I posted previously. A fern I have growing in it is beginning to show signs of phosphor burn (I'm guessing the phosphorous level to be around 23 ppm and I believe 18-20 is about the tipping point). Perhaps a blood and potassium sulfate mix is the only way to hit a decent NPK ratio, have to drop the kelp this mix.

 

[Diatomacious]

What's this pH you speak of??

When you worry about it and include Coco in the convo I start thinking you're running soil-less and get confused.

Sorry... I'm trying to make a soil-less mix for potting in containers. Regular soil from the yard is very compact and heavy for a container plant as you only have so much room for root.

 

[bobrown14]

ALL plants grow in a symbiotic relationship with soil microbes. No matter what the medium is.

There's a soil food web.

Here's a good read on it. There are lots of similar articles to read.

Mycorr-what? | An Introduction to the Soil Food Web

There are soil organisms that actually attach to the roots of the plants and the plants feed those organisms in exchange the soil organisms feed the plant. They work together in a symbiotic relationship.

Some of those organisms are the largest biological living things on earth. Mushrooms/hyphae.

Some science:

31.3B: Mycorrhizae: The Symbiotic Relationship between Fungi and Roots

 

[Diatomacious]

I hear what you are saying... the plant can release different sugars to attract different bacteria depending on what the plant needs. There are also organisms that can extend the reach of the root system as well as pull nutrient from otherwise inaccessible sources by fungal digestion. This does not change the concentration of nitrogen, phosphorous or potassium (the NPK ratio) available to the plant as these are changed only by altering your soil recipe and that is what I am looking into.

 

[Nunyabiz]

ALL plants grow in a symbiotic relationship with soil microbes. No matter what the medium is.

There's a soil food web.

Here's a good read on it. There are lots of similar articles to read.

Mycorr-what? | An Introduction to the Soil Food Web

There are soil organisms that actually attach to the roots of the plants and the plants feed those organisms in exchange the soil organisms feed the plant. They work together in a symbiotic relationship.

Some of those organisms are the largest biological living things on earth. Mushrooms/hyphae.

Some science:

31.3B: Mycorrhizae: The Symbiotic Relationship between Fungi and Roots

Yep, was just going to say this.

I actually don't feed my plants at all really, I feed my soil, the worms the mycorrhazae etc and they feed my plant.

 

[bobrown14]

This does not change the concentration of nitrogen, phosphorous or potassium (the NPK ratio) available to the plant as these are changed only by altering your soil recipe and that is what I am looking into.

Ok now I understand what you are interested in.

The soil will have NPK + micro nutrients in the soil.

They are not all soluble; meaning they combine with water molecules so the roots of the plants can readily uptake them.

Just because you have an NPK reading of your soil doesn't mean the same thing as NPK of soluble nutrients you can "feed" the plant with from a bottle.

Those soil NPK readings are at best a guideline.

The nutrients in the soil need to be broken down into soluble nutrients and thats not enough, there needs to be water molecules there. With water is how the nutrients get into the plant, need for water in key. The water keeps the flow of nutrients flowing up from the roots into the plants vascular system.

Check out "Cation Exchange Capacity".

So those nutrients/minerals are in the soil. They need to be converted into soluble form along with water they are taken up by the plant.

They can also be taken in by the fungi and the fungi actually attach to the roots of the plant and can translocate nutrients from a fair distance right into the roots in soluble form as well.

You can load up your soil with a proper mix of NPK - most of it non-soluble. As long as your soil pH is within reason the microbes and fungi begin to break down the non-soluble NPK into a soluble form. Its not all done willy nilly - the plant works with and for the fungi and bacteria.

When I first make my soil mix, I get it tested. All I really look for is a proper balance of NPK and micro nutrients and a pH within reason.

The NPK is at max or above max. Its not going to hurt/help the plant because its not in a soluble form. Only way to hurt (maybe) is the soil pH way to far in either direction.
Soil pH as tested in the lab. Not any other method.

 

[Diatomacious]

The NPK is at max or above max. Its not going to hurt/help the plant because its not in a soluble form. Only way to hurt (maybe) is the soil pH way to far in either direction.
Soil pH as tested in the lab. Not any other method.

The NPK will become soluble through bacterial activity... it will go above and beyond "optimal" growing conditions for "available" nutrient if you have too much in the soil. This in turn will hurt the plant and show itself in the form of burning, twisting, dwarfing or some similar reaction to the excess fertilizer (slow growth is one reaction) as the plant tries to store the excess fertilizer (whether it is N, P or K) for a rainy day. This has been my experience with growing organic. The plant will adjust itself to an NPK concentration and "try" to grow but "optimal" growing condition is a very small window. That being said, it is better to have too much fertilizer and get some bud than to not have enough fertilizer and end up with nothing. What it all boils down to is that there is a relationship between total NPK and available NPK. The more total you have the higher your available will be.

I'm thinking about having some of my blood meal tested for NPK as right now I'm just guessing it's value is about 13.25-1-0.6 but who knows what it actually is until tested. A small change in one of those numbers can make a big change in the soil mix when talking ppm (especially phosphorous which should only be about 6-10 ppm for soil-less, no more than 20 ppm for good growth).

I really don't have an NPK reading for my soil at this point in time (I'm just guessing). The only thing I know for sure is my coco coir has pretty much no nutrient value in it out the bag (guess it sat in a big pile and got rained on leaching away the nutrient) so the only nutrient available to the plant is what I add.

 

[Diatomacious]

I like potting mix (soil-less) for container growing because it's light weight and highly permeable for easy watering. It would seem, however, that for organic growing a soil mix would be the best choice (like outdoor soil). Most organic matter has too much phosphorous in it for a soil-less mix and therefore complicates fertilizer calculations. It's easy to hit a 20-1-25 ratio with chemicals but very difficult with organic amendments. In regular soil you can be closer to 1 P to every 1 N and still be in the optimal growth range. The million dollar question then is what to add to soilless to make it act like soil (and how much is needed).

Maybe I should give up and just put some of the clay in my back yard into a flower pot.

 

[Diatomacious]

Good read on those links... but nothing covering concentration for organics.

I found this link particularly interesting... it has a good description of the nutrient required for a plant to grow... though again no concentrations explained.

31.1C: Essential Nutrients for Plants

bio.libretexts.org

 

[GodOfPot]

The NPK will become soluble through bacterial activity... it will go above and beyond "optimal" growing conditions for "available" nutrient if you have too much in the soil. This in turn will hurt the plant and show itself in the form of burning, twisting, dwarfing or some similar reaction to the excess fertilizer (slow growth is one reaction) as the plant tries to store the excess fertilizer (whether it is N, P or K) for a rainy day. This has been my experience with growing organic. The plant will adjust itself to an NPK concentration and "try" to grow but "optimal" growing condition is a very small window. That being said, it is better to have too much fertilizer and get some bud than to not have enough fertilizer and end up with nothing. What it all boils down to is that there is a relationship between total NPK and available NPK. The more total you have the higher your available will be.

I'm thinking about having some of my blood meal tested for NPK as right now I'm just guessing it's value is about 13.25-1-0.6 but who knows what it actually is until tested. A small change in one of those numbers can make a big change in the soil mix when talking ppm (especially phosphorous which should only be about 6-10 ppm for soil-less, no more than 20 ppm for good growth).

I really don't have an NPK reading for my soil at this point in time (I'm just guessing). The only thing I know for sure is my coco coir has pretty much no nutrient value in it out the bag (guess it sat in a big pile and got rained on leaching away the nutrient) so the only nutrient available to the plant is what I add.

It will only become soluable as the plant wants it to. The plant controls bacterial activity, there won’t be enough N converting bacteria to overproduce N if the plant doesn’t want there to be.

It won’t allow those bacteria to overproduce because it won’t put out the exudates to assist them, they will become dormant or die off until the plant starts to send off exudates for them again.

When starting with a new soil though it’s harder, because the community hasn’t established itself yet, it doesn’t happen over night & does take time. We try to help our pots along using various teas to increase microbial levels and activity, but the more established a soil becomes, the more we want to let plant do it’s own thing with the least amount of interference as possible from the grower.

 

[Diatomacious]

Sounds good but the sandwich on the counter suggests that the bacteria will flourish without plant sugars if they have a plentiful supply of food (like say you add too much P or N). The bacteria will consume any food source you put in the container (whether organic amendment or plant sugar). The plant only feeds the bacteria it wants if they are not already present in the soil. The whole concept works much better in an outdoor environment where fertilizer is not blended homogeneously into the soil and myccorhizae must extend the reach of the root by meters to reach the decaying matter that is not anywhere near the plant. Myccorhizae are overkill in a containerized environment... they may aid with plant digestion (through fungal decay) but further reach on the root in a flower pot is not necessary. Don't kid yourself... organic matter "will" decay whether you like it or not... you simply have to monitor the concentrations you are adding to the soil (very similar to growing chemically, only difference is a lab is necessary to determine the actual NPK in the amendment). The soil will get better with time due to chemical reactions that occur that can turn available into unavailable nutrient.

Just my 2 cent.

 

[GodOfPot]

No doubt it works better outdoors, it already has an established SFW, something that takes time to establish in an indoor container.

Fungi is not overkill in a container by any means. Fungi does so much more then just extend the reach of the roots. Some trees fungi can be responsible for 80% of the K uptaken at a fraction of the energy the plant would use without said fungi, allowing it to focus the energy elsewhere, along with aiding in killing off pathogens amongst many many other things.

OM will decay absolutely, but the rate at which it decays can be controlled by the plants. When the plant doesn’t want a specific nutrient, not only will it not send out exudates for that bacteria, but it will send out exudates that attract other members of the SFW to kill those bacteria...forcing them into hiding, controlling the herd size and slowing the rate of decay for that specific nutrient.

That sandwich on the counter, the speed of decay can be controlled by environmental factors, put it outside in the cold and watch how slowly that decay starts to take place.

 

[Diatomacious]

I hear ya... talk to any farmer and he will tell you different (if he is successful at farming and not cashing subsidy checks). You get your soil tested and from that point determine the lbs per 1000 sq ft or per acre of nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium and then using the NPK of the amendment you are adding determine how many pounds of each amendment to add the necessary amount of each element. That's why the Ag Dept exists. If it works for you and you are happy with it then that's all that counts. I'm still not quite happy with a soilless mix when trying to grow organically for previously stated reasons. I'm thinking about getting 20 gallons of premium top soil and trying to make a potting mix with a soil base at this point... just trying out one last organic mix before I give up and go soil.

 

[Diatomacious]

Essential plant nutrients with some explanation of excess and deficiency.

Optimum nutrient concentration for soil.

For soil, nitrogen and phosphorous are around 50 ppm optimal and potassium about 150 ppm. Very easy compared to soilless.

 

[Diatomacious]

Sent some samples of blood meal and feather meal off to the lab for a proper NPK analysis. Guaranteed minimum is good enough for soil mix but not for soilless due to phosphorous limitation of 10 ppm. Hopefully will determine which is the better amendment for soilless from this analysis (I can't even find a "typical" analysis for feather meal so I figured what the hell). I've changed my mix slightly to reflect the new data (may have to change again after lab analysis comes in) so I will know in a week if I did good.

 

[Diatomacious]

Looks like my 1 g N burn point was more like the low end of the optimal (100 ppm) in my mix. Excess and deficiency often have very similar plant symptoms so hard to tell difference sometimes. Could probably take it up to 2 g N per gallon as long as phosphorous is not in extreme excess (I believe the excess P in conjunction with optimal N is what caused my burning). So far clones potted into the new mix are greening up (even the tips of the leaves) so looks good so far.

 

[Diatomacious]

If blood meal is 13.25-1-0.6 then setting the concentration of blood in the mix to 200 ppm (which is the max optimal), phosphorous should only be about 15.1 ppm (using the 13.25-1 ratio). I believe the Ag Dept data shows that plants should grow well up to about 18 ppm (before burn becomes noticeable). This only leaves potassium unaccounted for. Potassium sulfate is recommended for growing tobacco (since tobacco cannot tolerate high chlorides) and should work very well in this instance. Testing in progress.

 

[009sleepy]

PH is meaningless. A recent study has confirmed that cannabis is a broad range plant and does well between 5 and 7,5.

Could you put a link to that study ? Thanks in advance

 

[Diatomacious]

OK... here's latest results according to most recent (and accurate) data I can find. This will only work for a soilless mix so don't try this with soil from your back yard. Peat moss, coco coir, pro-mix style (without added nutrient) will all work fine (unless you get some fresh coir before the potassium is rinsed away).

I dub thee BLOOD MIX

Per gallon soilless mix (I use the 2 gallon bucket filled loosely)
1T 2t Blood Meal
3/4 t Potassium Sulfate (mined not manufactured, so organic)
1 t Humic Ore
pH of the soilless media should be kept around 6.2-6.4

Keep the soilless mix moist but not wet (no standing water) and try not to drain to waste any excess as this will leach potassium from your soil dropping your ppm below optimal. Watering when the top layer looks dry is a good method unless your fans dry that out rapidly.

The numbers, if you care, are total nitrogen 2.1 g, total phosphorous 0.16 g and total potassium 2.5 g. This is from the amendments only and does not include any nutrient already in the soil (so have a lab test it if in doubt). I'm guessing the ppm come out at about 200 ppm N, 15 ppm P and 248 ppm K but I will have to let it decay for a while before I can get an accurate analysis on the N and maybe the P. Except for the excess P this soil should rock. The excess P is still below the 18 ppm burn point pointed out in the pdf I posted earlier and preliminary testing has produced positive results (this stuff should even grow tobacco if you like).

Happy growing and God Bless!