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Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

bobrown14

Grow Journal of the Month: Dec 2017
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

Here's some science on the nitrogen cycle and senescence. The process is spelled out... this whole process is fueled by the cost of Nitrogen ferts because - Economics.

Eventually and its coming, all of the bottles will become too expensive to warrant use. I.E. loosing money. It's already there with corn.. the only way farmers can afford to grow corn is due to government subsidies. We wont be getting any of that anytime soon... or will we??

It's ALWAYS going to come down to the almighty dollar... who's going to make the money.. farmers? Not unless we get sustainable.

Sustainability
Environmental
Health

Those should be our big 3... notice money isn't part of that!


Warning ... brain freeze alert:

Nitrogen uptake, assimilation and remobilization in plants: challenges for sustainable and productive agriculture | Annals of Botany | Oxford Academic
 

LEDBud

Well-Known Member
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

I will try to keep it short try anyways

So in Summary ..

In nature temperature controls the nutrients availability not limited too but including nitrogen. To ensure seed maturation when the plant senses the reduction of available nutrient levels it jumps into gear and starts to draw from its stored reserves in the leaves root & lower stalk.

Temperature

In cool wet weather growth of the root system is reduced, and the roots tend to locate in the surface of the soil. More importantly the activity of the root system is also reduced. Since roots are a respiring organ, oxygen is required for their activity and the rate of root metabolism is strongly effected by temperature. Thus nutrient uptake can be reduced by cool temperatures, and by overcast days which reduce photosynthesis.


it seems the plant thinks for itself but techniques can help it make up its mind

The nutrient uptake process

Uptake of nutrients by a plant root is an active process.
As water is taken up to support transpiration, nutrients may be moved to the root surface through mass
flow. But they are not taken directly into the root.

The plasma membrane of the endoderm
blocks the movement of ions into the root. At this point an active uptake process which requires
energy is used to move the nutrients into the root and xylem for transport to the growing tissues.
A specific protein carrier is used to bind with a nutrient ion and carry it across the membrane.

This active uptake process is a selective process. The root discriminates and only expends
energy to take up nutrients it needs. Thus nutrient uptake is not proportional to the ratios of
nutrients in the soil solution. Ions in large supply in the soil solution, such as calcium and sulfur,
can accumulate near the root. In perennial plants this can actually result in visible quantities of
calcium carbonate and calcium sulfate precipitating and coating old roots.

One important implication of the plants ability to pick and choose nutrients from the soil solution
is the relative unimportance of the ratio of nutrients in the soil solution. As long as a given
nutrient is supplied to the root surface at a concentration high enough to meet the demands of
nutrient uptake, the demands of growth and development will normally be met. For example, the
ratio of calcium and magnesium on the soil cation exchange sites and in soil solution has little
effect on the ratio of these nutrients in the plant.

The plant selects the ions it needs, allowing the others to accumulate in the soil solution at the root surface. Altering the soil to supply adequate amounts, the concept of critical concentrations, has generally proven more cost effective than
altering soils to provide ratios of nutrients equivalent to the ratios at which the nutrients are
found in the plants.

The last sentence basically means keep a general nutrient balance and the plants will figure it out leaving a accumulation of any undesired nutrients in the soil or solution.
 

LEDBud

Well-Known Member
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

9 weeks , day 3 of flush in RDWC

I deiced to take Weaselcrackers advice of flushing with a light nutrient mix.
To the tune of 30 ml 0-10-10 Kool bloom @ 75 ppm to 23 gallons of 45 ppm water.

With 23 ml of dutch master Zone water conditioner being the only other additive I left the PH as is at 6.9 , speedy nutrient uptake seems pointless at this point.

People suggest to PH adjust the flush water , I did not want to add more ppm to the mix so left it at 6.9 to help avoid future up or down ph swings.

I also expect the PH will drop on its own over the flush period.



PH down is made of phosphoric acid which plants consume as phosphorous.

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A few shots of the starting stage , photos are from 3 days ago which was the first day of flush



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I will post any progress in one week and again when its complete , keep positive.
 

Lost In Nugs

New Member
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

There's firm logic in the statement that if flushing is done too early it will harm growth. The extremes are never giving any nutes and giving only nutes. We know through easily performed experimentation that the effects of both are serious through to fatal.




That has logical consistency. Not so much clearing them out nutes as diluting them. Good thinking and worth further research.
If flowers are sinks then the content of them will be the same when the plants are dried aye? Dont see sense in that.

I think a flush will wash out ferts from the medium so the plant feeds from its leaves and the buds grow from the nutes they recieve within the plant... This way the total amount of nutes in the plant drops because it grows only with whats inside it.

But what do i know. :)

Advanced nutrients use free edta chelates and claim it works like claws binding stuff and you flush it out woth plain water after 6 hours of soaking in the medium. They claim testing plant matter before and after use and get up to 80% decrease of unwanted stuff in it.

Not shure what i should believe in. I have 2 genetic identical plants in the same environment. One got soaked 6 hours in AN Flawless Finish and then watered huge amounts of water afterwards. It started swelling flowers more then the unflushed plant that got fed instead and it smells better, somehow cleaner and richer. I have never seen such a dark brown runoff like that day i used the free chelates from AN.

What do you think guys?
 

LEDBud

Well-Known Member
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

7th day of flush the Indicas are yellowing with the Sativas just starting to yellow but starting to taste good.

Smoke report of the flush so far

Have been cutting bottom buds off the Sativas and air drying everyday so far this week and have noticed changes in the last few days.

Day 1 to 4 ~ buds tasted bland when vaporized

Day 5 ~ buds had some flavor developing it was the first time I thought its tasting good

Day 6 ~ today's buds are tasting fruity and flavorful ( using the Arizer air Vaporizer )

Today's bud was cut last night on day 6 of the flush snipped up and left to air dry for 20 hrs I can honestly say I was impressed with its flavor.

As the flush is just starting to have effect its going to keep getting better and better over the next week.

The buds are maturing putting on weight crystals and fattening up on stored energy with light nutes

Latest Top up

30 ml Astroflower
30 ml Cal-Mag

to 22 gallons water about 1.5 ml each per gallon

previous feeding

20 ml Astro
20 ml Micro
20 ml Cal-Mag
15 ml Silica

to 22 gallons of water for about 1 ml of each per gallon
 

bobrown14

Grow Journal of the Month: Dec 2017
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

LEDBud... you are growing in a soil-less medium correct?

I just want to point this out as many feel what you are writing about is also true in soil. I think as we write about flushing, this process ONLY works in a soil-less medium.

This point (soil-less medium) gets glossed over and many people think this process also works in soil, which I will argue it does not.

LEDBud... you are coming down the stretch or harvesting, why don't you start a journal for your next run with a write up on how you set up your RDW system, with all the nuts and bolts so everyone understands where you're coming from and how you get your great results.
 

LEDBud

Well-Known Member
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

With Soil the options are similar with soil-less in that you stop adding nutrients and supplements.

Many soil growers add additives and supplements to help the plant along using supplements like bat Guano and various other organics in fortified teas that should be stopped well before harvest to allow the plant to yellow off , as it naturally wants too.

Temperature plays an important part in the flush in soil having a cold medium / pot would slow nutrient up take further if a person wanted to be pro active.

This could be accomplished by reducing the room temperature

In the Past when growing indoors in soil the plants would yellow till the leaves fell off when fully flushed out leaving me with sweet aromatic bud.

You must try it
 

Lost In Nugs

New Member
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

Interesting info LEDBud
I just woke up and still kinda retarded [emoji1] So what should i do in Soil exactly for a good flush? Mild nutes instead of water?
 

LEDBud

Well-Known Member
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

Hey there Seymore I think its best to stop all nutrients in soil rather then reduce but it really comes down to knowing your soil mix.

If your in a small pot with little nutrients in the soil you may well do great by reducing whereas with large containers straight water would be more suitable.

Ideally you want the plant to strip all nutrients from the soil and become deficient in its last weeks / month.


Try something along the lines of this in soil

Water and feed as you see fit for the first 6 weeks of flower then switch to straight up water from week 7 to 11 or longer if the plants are up to it.

Reducing the room temperature will slow the nutrient uptake further
 

LEDBud

Well-Known Member
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

I should warn you guys that once the flush has started you should stay committed to it or you will reset the flush starting date to that feeding.

Let them fade out and turn nasty looking as that's a sign its getting ripe and ready
 

bobrown14

Grow Journal of the Month: Dec 2017
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

With Soil the options are similar with soil-less in that you stop adding nutrients and supplements.

Many soil growers add additives and supplements to help the plant along using supplements like bat Guano and various other organics in fortified teas that should be stopped well before harvest to allow the plant to yellow off , as it naturally wants too.

Temperature plays an important part in the flush in soil having a cold medium / pot would slow nutrient up take further if a person wanted to be pro active.

This could be accomplished by reducing the room temperature

In the Past when growing indoors in soil the plants would yellow till the leaves fell off when fully flushed out leaving me with sweet aromatic bud.

You must try it
No absolutely not.... flushing soil DOES NOTHING, well other than water logging the soil and killing soil micro-organisms we use to grow plants with. Then you "flush" them out of the soil in the last month of growth.... no wrong bro... there's science to back up what I'm saying.

There's this thing called CEC.. "cation exchange capacity" of soil. All soil has this, it's science and it doesn't just miraculously stop working because you are running water thru the soil.

What you're saying flushing soil does is exactly what? Trying to remove extra or some amount of nutrients you added in previously??

Ok just that sentence sounds to me like a bunch of hooey ... it actually is, and here's the science.

"CEC is an inherent soil characteristic and is difficult to alter significantly."

When you add in nutrient out of your bottle how does the plant absorb the nutrients?? Does the plant somehow just uptake the bottled nutrients and just ignore the soil and all of the plants roots (more than half the mass of the plant). No impossible.. only this is done in hydroponically grown plants not soil grown plants.

The nutrients go into the soil, the soil thru CEC adsorbs the nutrients, the micro-organisms in the soil along with the plants root exudate work in a symbiotic relationship; plant exudes root exudates, micro-organisms respond and "trade" exudate for nutrients (that you just poured into the soil) the micro-organisms break down... depending on the root exudate, the micro-organisms respond and with make available to the roots different nutrients... so its the soil micro-organisms that help "feed" the plant, not you or your bottles ... sorry! Thats just the science behind how plants uptake nutrients in soil.

Now back to your "flushing" paradigm. The reason it does NOT work for soil is due to the CEC (cation exchange capacity) of the soil.

Here's how it works and you can read the science in the link I listed.

Nutrients that plants uptake from the soil are broken down by micro-organisms in the soil... the soil itself with its chemical makeup also adsorb and change the physical chemical properties of the nutrients you pour into the soil. This breakdown is loading the soil's CEC, then the roots and organisms absorb those nutrients, but they are of a different chemical makeup due to CEC. Water will have no or VERY little affect on the nutrients in the soil.... Water will have very little affect on nutrients in the soil....

The nutrients have a chemical makup. You cannot change that fact. You cant run water thru soil and break the chemical bonds of the nutrients adsorbed into the soil. I'm going to say this again because this is the point that flushing does not work. The reason is nutrients in the soil cannot be "flushed" out is due to the chemical BOND those nutrients have with the soil I.E. CEC. That bond is at the atomic level, water will do NOTHING to those bonds of nutrients and soil. Nothing...

This is basic soil science.

Flushing soil is just some made up story someone decided to tell folks that grow cannabis. Ever see any farmers running around the field with a tank of water flushing the soil of nutrients... what about rain... if flushing soil was a thing, wouldn't rain wash away all the nutrients in the soil... then farmers fields would have no soil nutrients.... then what, we all starve to death.... doesn't happen... see that's how silly this flushing b/s is. Put it into the real world and this flushing nonsense just does not parse out.

I'm sorry to be the burden of truth, but it is what it is, and flushing soil is some made up story NOT based on science.

This is the reason I asked you about what medium you are growing in and you were extremely vague about it.

The only reason I'm responding is due to the fact for some reason this nonsense gets posted and talked about like its truth, then this non-information becomes a sort of defacto truth and people believe whats written without doing proper research... "Oh Johnny canny seed said flushing my soil will grow bigger buddage late in flower".... or somehow it's going to change the flavor or somehow remove some of the "extra" nutrients the plant absorbed ... that is all silly non-scene and belongs in a science fiction novel and not in an organic gardening forum... again sorry but truth.

Link to CEC for your reading:

Cations and Cation Exchange Capacity | Fact Sheets | soilquality.org.au
 

conradino23

Grow Journal of the Year: 2017 - Grow Journal of the Month: Sept 2017
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

I have to side with that, but basic problem here is flawed method. Injecting massive amounts of ferts into the soil just to flush out the excess later is pure mumbo-jumbo. I don't even know where to start to criticise it.

Cations are adsorbed by soil particles after bonding has been weakened, so you can try to flush them all year round and you won't be able to do it cause it's chemically and physically impossible!!! The only thing that you really can flush out is nitrogen in nitrate form cause it's an anion, so it doesn't bind strongly, but WTF would you need so much nitrate in flowering to flush it out in the first place?

And the last thing did you ever hear of control group? Without it you have nothing in terms of scientific validity. You're just showing off anecdotal evidence and not even a good one. You're just selling myths that don't have tiny bit of truth.
 

LEDBud

Well-Known Member
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

This thread is about flushing if you don't want to Flush , then don't.

If you want to convince People who do flush that is doesn't work you will need a machine to alter Reality.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As the saying goes try sometime and you just might find you get what you need

Hint - Flushing cannabis is not dumping copious amounts of water threw the soil

Its letting the Plant consume whats already in the soil so it becomes deficient in its last weeks.
 

conradino23

Grow Journal of the Year: 2017 - Grow Journal of the Month: Sept 2017

conradino23

Grow Journal of the Year: 2017 - Grow Journal of the Month: Sept 2017
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

I was under impression that when you just give pure water to your plants it's called WATERING. But as long as we are on the subject can you tell me what's the objective of letting plant become eficient in the last couple of weeks? You ever tried make your buddy sicker so he could feel better? There's no logic in this approach unfortunately and ultimately cause you can't actually prove it works even if you're convinced about it 100%.
 

conradino23

Grow Journal of the Year: 2017 - Grow Journal of the Month: Sept 2017
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