JuanCarlos
Well-Known Member
Then you need to jump on a DIY Cree/Vero project.
Looking for higher end LED lights
Atulip
New Member
I'm just going by their specified numbers to calculate HPS equivalent. There's a reason companies like that provide only a single value point of light reading, or some small par chart, then claim it performs double that of HPS. These types of companies are why the LED market is confusing for most buyers.
I'd say they dispay a 150,000 lux reading at 24" 60° because then average Joe buyer says "150,000 for 440w? My 1000w HPS only does 145,000" lux=/=lumens.
For the same price as SK, you can pick up a Cree Cob fixture that will put out 30-40% more light for the same watts, and have a larger spread area.
SK is not revolutionary.
Budmaster looks pretty sound. Their cob is citiled, anywhere from 120-150lm/w typ. Pretty close to what we typically see with Cree(150-180). Just pricey for what you get. $700 for 200w. Their god series uses higher quality Osram chips(150-180lm/w), but again, $1100 for 200 watts.
Timber cxb200 with the Cree chips(140-150lm/w). Crees ran a little hard but should be about the same light output as the budmaster cob. $600 for 200w.
It's all pretty pricey for what it is. DIY is always cheaper but it depends on how comfortable you are with it.
I did easy mode DIY. Took a $60 mars 300 and reused the drivers to power 4 x cxb2530 4000k. Chose them because mouser had the U4 bin for $18. Pushing 145-150lumens/watt. $75 for chips, $ 20 for heatsinks, $60 for the mars. I now have a 110w, 16,000 lumen fixture for well under $200. 2 of this will output more light than the $700 budmaster, the $600 timber, and close to the same as the $1100 budmaster god.
Takes about 1hr of DIY, a screwdriver, wire strippers, soldering iron, dremel/drill, some 16-20g wire, arctic silver 5, and kapton tape. Full DIY from scratch doesn't cost much more, and gets you better efficiencies(passive, mean well drivers), probably would've done that but I already have 6 of these Mars300s.
HPS is still good technology. Usually it's heat us home growers have issues with. But if you want to push efficiency, grab a cooltube, rip the reflector off and run that HPS Vert and put plants around it.
IE 4x4 tent, stack 4-12 plants around a 600w bulb. There's no real loss of surface area, that bulb will easily cover 16sq ft of wall 360° with 0% loss to reflector. 150lm/w.
Planning to repurpose my HPS this way and pack in some tall lolipopped plants around the rim, SoG style.
I'd say they dispay a 150,000 lux reading at 24" 60° because then average Joe buyer says "150,000 for 440w? My 1000w HPS only does 145,000" lux=/=lumens.
For the same price as SK, you can pick up a Cree Cob fixture that will put out 30-40% more light for the same watts, and have a larger spread area.
SK is not revolutionary.
Budmaster looks pretty sound. Their cob is citiled, anywhere from 120-150lm/w typ. Pretty close to what we typically see with Cree(150-180). Just pricey for what you get. $700 for 200w. Their god series uses higher quality Osram chips(150-180lm/w), but again, $1100 for 200 watts.
Timber cxb200 with the Cree chips(140-150lm/w). Crees ran a little hard but should be about the same light output as the budmaster cob. $600 for 200w.
It's all pretty pricey for what it is. DIY is always cheaper but it depends on how comfortable you are with it.
I did easy mode DIY. Took a $60 mars 300 and reused the drivers to power 4 x cxb2530 4000k. Chose them because mouser had the U4 bin for $18. Pushing 145-150lumens/watt. $75 for chips, $ 20 for heatsinks, $60 for the mars. I now have a 110w, 16,000 lumen fixture for well under $200. 2 of this will output more light than the $700 budmaster, the $600 timber, and close to the same as the $1100 budmaster god.
Takes about 1hr of DIY, a screwdriver, wire strippers, soldering iron, dremel/drill, some 16-20g wire, arctic silver 5, and kapton tape. Full DIY from scratch doesn't cost much more, and gets you better efficiencies(passive, mean well drivers), probably would've done that but I already have 6 of these Mars300s.
HPS is still good technology. Usually it's heat us home growers have issues with. But if you want to push efficiency, grab a cooltube, rip the reflector off and run that HPS Vert and put plants around it.
IE 4x4 tent, stack 4-12 plants around a 600w bulb. There's no real loss of surface area, that bulb will easily cover 16sq ft of wall 360° with 0% loss to reflector. 150lm/w.
Planning to repurpose my HPS this way and pack in some tall lolipopped plants around the rim, SoG style.
Atulip
New Member
Beam angle isn't the only thing to consider for spread. Light spacing is another. SK is a fixture with 440w in the center. Similar to HPS. Even with a 120° beam angle you need to hang it 18-22" to cover a 4'x4' evenly. That puts rim intensity at 70-80% of center.
With my 4x 110w 115° Cree fixtures I'd space them 18" apart from center to center and hang it 12-14" high. A nice even blend of light intensity and the rim receiving ~70-80% of the intensity of the center.
Similar spreads but I can drop my lights closer and wasted light to walls/reflection is far less.
Mine are DIY for ~$750 for the same wattage and about 20-25% more light. Similar setups with better efficiencies than mine can be purchased(~$1200), in the US at least. EU market looks limited.
If someones telling you they're growing in a 6'x6' with 50,000 lumens. They're blowing smoke up your bum. That's 200ppfd, basically all air bud. That light is good for a 4'x4', 500ppfd, and should net anywhere from 1g-2g/w depending on strains, style, and grower.
I'm planning on 80,000 lumens of Cree in my 12.5sq ft of space. 950ppfd. I'm hitting max values for photosynthesis, I'll expect .75g-1.5gpw in this situation. More light but less yield than if I had a larger space.
500-700ppfd is believed to be the sweet spot for flowering efficiency(where 1.5g/w is easily obtainable with efficient leds), beyond that 900-1000ppfd is where you start to see a peak. This is where 1gpw is easily achievable with latest led tech. Most of us limited by space aim for this ppfd to maximize use of it, not the most efficient in terms of grams/watt, so it's a poor way to compare anything(too many variables effect gpw)
It's often why you see someone running 600w HPS, or led equivalent, in a small 3'x3' tent, maximizes the yield of the space. 875ppfd.
With my 4x 110w 115° Cree fixtures I'd space them 18" apart from center to center and hang it 12-14" high. A nice even blend of light intensity and the rim receiving ~70-80% of the intensity of the center.
Similar spreads but I can drop my lights closer and wasted light to walls/reflection is far less.
Mine are DIY for ~$750 for the same wattage and about 20-25% more light. Similar setups with better efficiencies than mine can be purchased(~$1200), in the US at least. EU market looks limited.
If someones telling you they're growing in a 6'x6' with 50,000 lumens. They're blowing smoke up your bum. That's 200ppfd, basically all air bud. That light is good for a 4'x4', 500ppfd, and should net anywhere from 1g-2g/w depending on strains, style, and grower.
I'm planning on 80,000 lumens of Cree in my 12.5sq ft of space. 950ppfd. I'm hitting max values for photosynthesis, I'll expect .75g-1.5gpw in this situation. More light but less yield than if I had a larger space.
500-700ppfd is believed to be the sweet spot for flowering efficiency(where 1.5g/w is easily obtainable with efficient leds), beyond that 900-1000ppfd is where you start to see a peak. This is where 1gpw is easily achievable with latest led tech. Most of us limited by space aim for this ppfd to maximize use of it, not the most efficient in terms of grams/watt, so it's a poor way to compare anything(too many variables effect gpw)
It's often why you see someone running 600w HPS, or led equivalent, in a small 3'x3' tent, maximizes the yield of the space. 875ppfd.
VladimirPutin
New Member
This sentiment is the bane of peace on earth and human progress. It is the reason the world is irreversibly messed up today.
According to your 2g per watt theory,
with 100 W of LED you`re getting 200 grams dried?
I'm not sure if this is a debate, seems more like a war of theories and wishful thinking backed by the business of capturing uneducated consumer's money.
Vlad
VladimirPutin
New Member
Here's my "high end" LED solution 
Still 3rd week in 12/12
Vlad
Still 3rd week in 12/12
Vlad
This sentiment is the bane of peace on earth and human progress. It is the reason the world is irreversibly messed up today.
According to your 2g per watt theory,
with 100 W of LED you`re getting 200 grams dried?
I'm not sure if this is a debate, seems more like a war of theories and wishful thinking backed by the business of capturing uneducated consumer's money.
Vlad
I dont usually feel the need to prove anything.... but since u wanna laugh at people.... i aint gon laugh back at you im just show you how late you are... so you can learn cause i only talk to help not to laugh at people... im not in elementary school anymore....
some people harvesting 2grams per watt with 70watts of led...
I have 2 spectrum king 400's, 2 PLC 300's, and a diy cree cxb3590 light. Bought the spectrum kings first, then after more research decided cobs were a better choice and bought the plc's, and then built a cob light with the help of all my handy friends who are talented in all the ways I am not. I have to say it was worth the learning curve to build an LED but if you're more comfortable purchasing one then I'd choose the plc 300. If you look at growmau5 and greengenes youtube instructional and informational videos the cree cob option makes a lot of sense. Also, with a cob light, parts are easy to change out.
Atulip
New Member
I'm not sure if this is a debate, seems more like a war of theories and wishful thinking backed by the business of capturing uneducated consumer's money.
Vlad
Well it's also difficult to get information on the higher end LEDs too. The market is flooded with junk and misleading info. Even I bought a $200 "400w equivalent" led thinking I'd get it for 180w and ended up very disappointed when it performed more like a 150w equiv.
And even top end has downsides. Triple+ the startup costs over HID, even if you're pushing 350w Cree getting 600w HID equivalent, it takes a couple years for the electrical savings to cover the additional startup.
VladimirPutin
New Member
Some people... What I expected to hear was "anybody" with basic grow skills can get 2 grams per watt with LED. I didn't ask for proof, but if you're supporting a product or technology then having proof is wise to be successful.
Obviously for many things we have no proof, we are just force fed propaganda and we must swallow it or face ridicule.
Example: Earth being a round ball, hurtling through space at 1,000,000 km/h , spinning at 1000 RPM. And then the government has nothing to prove all of this except CGI and cinema special effects.
Sorry, there exists no genuine photos of Earth from outer space, Yet many people are believers of this "religion".
This ...
The thread was originally about high end LED panels but when some random comment about how a $XXXX LED can replace a 1000W HPS then things were starting to get silly.
Dollar for Dollar, it's not even close!
As a side note:
I want to win a Mars 1200 panel this year. It is my goal on 420.
So then I get to take it apart and run it at maximum wattage.
I run all my LEDs at max with good cooling. And build custom power supplies for them.
No typical consumer LED lamp runs at its "rated" wattage..
Vlad
Atulip
New Member
Well, I see it as a long term investment. I've spent $1300(mostly DIY and one purchased fixture) converting my 1500w grow into an 800w grow, with higher overall light output. $600 a year is my electrical savings(18/6 autoflowers). + $70 HPS bulb every 6 months. Another benefit is less heat of course, I have issues running my 600w HPS in summer temps here.
The reason you don't run the LEDs at or above their nominal current is efficiency. You can run top end Cree cxb3590s @ 104w and get 140 lumens/watt. But most are @ 49w for 180 lumens/watt. Commercial opperations may run @ 23w to get that 210 lumens/watt.
Another year or two and we should be able to safely replace HID additional startup.
I wanted a mars1200 also.(540w) Until I saw their par chart. Big par numbers(wasted photons) in the center, but beyond a 2.5'x2.5' space, a 600w HPS will out perform it. Spread is just aweful with them, that's an issue with too many 90° leds(need those to boost the center par numbers) If you're cranking up the wattage on some cheap epi leds in a mars, you're efficiency will be far worse than HPS.
The reason you don't run the LEDs at or above their nominal current is efficiency. You can run top end Cree cxb3590s @ 104w and get 140 lumens/watt. But most are @ 49w for 180 lumens/watt. Commercial opperations may run @ 23w to get that 210 lumens/watt.
Another year or two and we should be able to safely replace HID additional startup.
I wanted a mars1200 also.(540w) Until I saw their par chart. Big par numbers(wasted photons) in the center, but beyond a 2.5'x2.5' space, a 600w HPS will out perform it. Spread is just aweful with them, that's an issue with too many 90° leds(need those to boost the center par numbers) If you're cranking up the wattage on some cheap epi leds in a mars, you're efficiency will be far worse than HPS.
Curly Beaver
Well-Known Member
Juan Carlos,
You mention DIY projects a couple times. In your opinion, are there any reliable plans out there for a first timer with plenty of time on his hands?
Thanks
HPS is still good technology. Usually it's heat us home growers have issues with. But if you want to push efficiency, grab a cooltube, rip the reflector off and run that HPS Vert and put plants around it.
IE 4x4 tent, stack 4-12 plants around a 600w bulb. There's no real loss of surface area, that bulb will easily cover 16sq ft of wall 360° with 0% loss to reflector. 150lm/w.
Planning to repurpose my HPS this way and pack in some tall lolipopped plants around the rim, SoG style.
With leds lumens are all directed down towards your plants unlike hps where your lumens are going all over in the wrong direction and redirected and lost by a reflector... hps is not a very efficient light source at 360 degrees.... unless u growing on your walls instead of your floors.. only a small % is redirected efficiently with a reflector... dont believe the hype.... keep it real n simple...
JuanCarlos
Well-Known Member
BI, I wouldn't say there are "plans" out there because it's a very customizable thing, but there are definitely guys out there who are doing it very successfully. One of the DIYs that really opened my eyes and explained it pretty well so that the average person could understand it is the 6 part YouTube series done by Growmau5. It was definitely worth watching and I would recommend it. You will be spending a nice chunk of change up front (comparable to other mid to high end LED systems), but I think the energy savings from not just the lights, but also the HVAC, make the DIY route VERY attractive.
Curly Beaver
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply, I'll start by watching the videos.
Atulip
New Member
GPW is a poor way to compare lights.
Variables that affect g/w: Light, Space, Strain, Style, Experience
1.5gpw is achievable with 600w HID in optimal conditions and 2gpw with the ~450w led equivs, and upwards of 2.5gpw with the super high efficiency commercial opperations, ~350w.
That's the same 900gram yield in all 3 situations. The goal with led tech is not higher yield, it's cutting expenses.
Gpw is irrelevant. If you want 1.5gpw with an hps, run it vert with an outer scrog trellis. If you want 2.0 with your leds, run your 450w equiv in a 5'x5' packed with clones.
The main reason we don't see high GPW often is because we're oversizing our lights for our space. Like sticking a 600w hps in a 3'x3' when a 400w would be ideal, or 250w would be most efficient for the wattage.
I run 800w of led. I'm happy with my ~1gpw average, but sure, if I cut 1/2 my lights off I can get 1.5gpw. But then I've just lost 200g yield. But that could save me an extra $60 on electricity per cycle..
GPW should not be the goal in our situation. Maximizing both light and space are gonna get you a much higher overall efficiency.(Where space is limited)
Variables that affect g/w: Light, Space, Strain, Style, Experience
1.5gpw is achievable with 600w HID in optimal conditions and 2gpw with the ~450w led equivs, and upwards of 2.5gpw with the super high efficiency commercial opperations, ~350w.
That's the same 900gram yield in all 3 situations. The goal with led tech is not higher yield, it's cutting expenses.
Gpw is irrelevant. If you want 1.5gpw with an hps, run it vert with an outer scrog trellis. If you want 2.0 with your leds, run your 450w equiv in a 5'x5' packed with clones.
The main reason we don't see high GPW often is because we're oversizing our lights for our space. Like sticking a 600w hps in a 3'x3' when a 400w would be ideal, or 250w would be most efficient for the wattage.
I run 800w of led. I'm happy with my ~1gpw average, but sure, if I cut 1/2 my lights off I can get 1.5gpw. But then I've just lost 200g yield. But that could save me an extra $60 on electricity per cycle..
GPW should not be the goal in our situation. Maximizing both light and space are gonna get you a much higher overall efficiency.(Where space is limited)
JuanCarlos
Well-Known Member
Also check your PMs.
CaneyeBus
New Member
Juan Carlos, i am interested in diy as well. Im on the 3rd video of growmau's videos. I was considering a BM or two to supplement my xml350. I saw the light he suGgested in video 2, if diy was too cumbersome. I have a 4x4 tent and i need more coverage for the edges of my 3x3 tray. I want to nix the tray and use the whole floor. You think it would be better if i diy two lights or bought 1 more bigger light or two smaller lights.
JuanCarlos
Well-Known Member
That is something you will have to decide for yourself. If you can easily sell your current lights, I would go with 12 or 16 COBs. Or you can simply make one or two 4 COB units to cover one or two edges in combination with your existing lights.
CaneyeBus
New Member
Thanks you for the response JuanCarlos. I wouldn't dare sell my xml
served me well for 3 years. I just like the idea of diy and being able to customize lights for my space,and light my space adequately. Spend $700.00-$1,100 on a single larger unit, 2 smaller units but at the same price tag for the innards quality. The price of the pre made light isn't the determining factor. If i can build a light or two(fairly easily with minimal health risk,from what I'm researching) customizable and upgradeable for a tad bit more, it would be worth it. I am subbed to Icemud's Budmaster grow.I like what I'm seeing with those. I'm also a DIY junkie and the diy crees intrigue me. I guess I was just searching for more opinions,as I don't see many Diy led threads here. I wouldn't have considered diy an led light back when i bought the xml350. Now I know so much more about the tech, I have the itch. Thanks again JuanCarlos.StayFrosty,
CanEyeBus
JuanCarlos
Well-Known Member
You don't see a lot of DIY threads here. I believe that's because we have a certain demographic here. We are a little more laidback, not as concerned with the latest tech or getting the most yield per input. I believe you could make a 12 COB unit for the budget you are looking to spend. Since you already like DIY, I say you jump in. I don't think there is anything close to the price range that will touch a DIY LED COB unit.
