Lowering pH

[gazmufc]

Hey Folks

Just curious what's best to use as substitute for pH down.
I've just mixed up my soil mix with amendments, it's full of micro biology and wondering if any of the suggested house hold products, vinegar, baking soda etc will harm the soil food web I'm trying to kick start.

This will be the first watering to start the 2 week incubation period before I intend to use it. The water I'm using is bottled volcanic coming in at pH of 7..I need to get it down to recommend of 6.5. Thanks in advance for any info..

 

[013]

Lemon juice can be substituted but it’s not intended for long term use

coots mix doesn’t require cooking but most of the other soil recipes need to be mixed, watered in, have a snug fitting lid placed on it so it can sweat and then allowed to cook for at least 30 days before use

 

[Sparkey224]

Hey Folks

Just curious what's best to use as substitute for pH down.
I've just mixed up my soil mix with amendments, it's full of micro biology and wondering if any of the suggested house hold products, vinegar, baking soda etc will harm the soil food web I'm trying to kick start.

This will be the first watering to start the 2 week incubation period before I intend to use it. The water I'm using is bottled volcanic coming in at pH of 7..I need to get it down to recommend of 6.5. Thanks in advance for any info..

Is there anyway to change your water? I remembered my first grow using subcool recipe with bottled Glacier water. Just got tired of lugging around bottles..lol.
Went to tap water after that (65ppms) @6.8 and didn't notice a difference but i know thats not a option for some folks.
Cheers

 

[Azimuth]

coots mix doesn’t require cooking

I don't think that is true. There are many inputs in it that are not readily available that need to be broken down by the microbes, and that process can heat things up. I do let my coots mix cook for a few weeks before using it.

Also, pH is pretty unnecessary to track in an organic grow when using microbes unless it is way too high or low. Your 7ish pH is fine. It's generally more of an issue for bottled nutrient grows to allow the various nutrients in the bottle to become available to the plant. With an organic grow using microbes, the microherd takes care of getting each of the nutrients to the plant in the amount needed.

 

[gazmufc]

Hey thanks for the input. Its helped me in my decision thanks.
Yes long term I intend to use tap water, I will dechlorinate it. Am just waiting for the bottle to arrive in the post to be able to do that to the water.
Just wanna get thiese amendments cooking.
So super excited to get going guys. I've taken the time and invested, have 4x4 set up with marshydro fce 6500..
Got 2seedings in there now.
Kushcookies, and girl scout cookies.
Have picked out ac infinity for climate control, just need to order it. Will be starting a grow journal, il be sure to come bavk and drop a link here if any of you folks interested in tagging along for when I need a bit of help...

 

[Roy Growin]

Lemon juice/citric is fine short term and deals with Chlorides, but eventually seems to bind Ca/K too
Nitric or fulvic works better in veg, Phosphoric in flower
I don't see any detriment in using plain tap water not treated with anything for supposedly harmful Cl/F
Sometimes all the cure does is create different problems, so I opt to keep it simple as poss
Seems to work

 

[Azimuth]

Crushed up vitamin C tablets also work to drop the chlorine and chloramine out of solution almost immediately. Although there are some that say it isn't really all that necessary since there are generally enough microbes left to repopulate themselves in short order. Especially if you add some more back like with worm castings.

 

[bluter]

stay away from vinegar and baking soda no matter how tempting.

any acid / base will affect ph in the short term. most add stuff that plays bad though. or worse taking it to a fast extreme.

organic based things like lemon or lime juice work in the short term but don't keep it stable for too long. most will wind up using a ph hydro product.


edit : if you have to, a lemon or lime juice is a good short term solution

 

[Phytoplankton]

I use phosphoric acid for the whole grow. Cheap and you don't need much. I bought a gallon three yars ago and still have a 1/2 gallon. I use about a 1/2 capful for 5 gallons. It is very strong, I spilled a little on the garage floor and it etched concrete.

 

[bluter]

I use phosphoric acid for the whole grow. Cheap and you don't need much. I bought a gallon three yars ago and still have a 1/2 gallon. I use about a 1/2 capful for 5 gallons. It is very strong, I spilled a little on the garage floor and it etched concrete.

that used to be a go to for early hydro. it's insanely caustic, you have to know how to handle it and the dilution.
you must be solid old school brother.

phos is still the main ph down base. it's just super diluted and safer for handling no matter whose brand you use.

we also used hydrochloride. it's not as stable but is also used in commercial brands.

 

[bluter]

to @gazmufc - get a real product and don't piss around with what @Phytoplankton and i are jawing on

 

[Phytoplankton]

that used to be a go to for early hydro. it's insanely caustic, you have to know how to handle it and the dilution.
you must be solid old school brother.

Old school all the way! It is a strong acid, I use nitrile gloves most of the time when handling it. My water has a PH of about 7.5-7.8, a capful in 5 gallons will take it down to about PH 6.0-6.2.

 

[bluter]

Old school all the way! It is a strong acid, I use nitrile gloves most of the time when handling it. My water has a PH of about 7.5-7.8, a capful in 5 gallons will take it down to about PH 6.0-6.2.

once you dial it you can almost sleep through it. i used syringes. got to a point i wouldn't look at the measure. just a glance by eye. always spot on or within range lol.

 

[gazmufc]

Nice one guys, thanks a million for the helpful inputs. Think I'm just gonna order the proper pH down solution and be done with it..

The it will only take a few days to arrive in the post, a least I know using the bottled water won't harm my micro organisms. Thanks again..

 

[013]

I don't think that is true. There are many inputs in it that are not readily available that need to be broken down by the microbes, and that process can heat things up. I do let my coots mix cook for a few weeks before using it.

Also, pH is pretty unnecessary to track in an organic grow when using microbes unless it is way too high or low. Your 7ish pH is fine. It's generally more of an issue for bottled nutrient grows to allow the various nutrients in the bottle to become available to the plant. With an organic grow using microbes, the microherd takes care of getting each of the nutrients to the plant in the amount needed.

Hey Azimuth

There was something really weird about Coots mix that stuck out in my noggin… I searched back for a minute but all I could find was a quote from Emilya regarding two week cook time for Coots ….

But I totally agree with you…. every soil or supersoil mix on the planet does need to be cooked to break down the inputs and for microbes to populate…

 

[Azimuth]

Hey 13,

Maybe you were thinking about the base mix without all the added inputs. Coots goes 1/3 each CSPM, aeration (pumice, perlite, hydroton, etc.), and worm castings. If it's just that base part it certainly doesn't have to cook since the most interesting part, the castings, are mild enough that you can pop seeds in it.

In fact, I use a water extract of the castings to soak my seeds in and then pour it on the seedling mix after I plant the seeds. The microbes in the castings fight off damping off disease which I understand to be a pathogenic fungus of some type.

It's all the other stuff that you add to this base mix that could burn your plants if you don't give the microbes sufficient time to bind them all up.

I've been experimenting with swapping the CSPM out for aged leaf mold with good success so far. The leaf mold is a fungal process and brings its own set of microbes to the table as well as a bunch of minerals from deep in the earth where the tree roots bring them up. Also loads easier to rehydrate when it dries out. Good stuff!

 

[gazmufc]

Hey Folks
I finally got the light and have now the up and running. It's my first grow journal so Il need all the help I can get lol
would really appreciate it if any of yous feel like stopping by to give ur thoughts or suggestions. Thanks.

Kush&Cookies Organic Living Soil, Mars Fce 6500

Hey Folks This will be my 3 Rd grow, and first grow journal. My first 2 trys at growing didn't turn out to well. Due to lack of equipment and knowledge. After some time saving, I'm now ready to go again, and this time hopefully the final results will be very different than my previous...

www.420magazine.com

 

[SmokingWings]

Hey 13,

Maybe you were thinking about the base mix without all the added inputs. Coots goes 1/3 each CSPM, aeration (pumice, perlite, hydroton, etc.), and worm castings. If it's just that base part it certainly doesn't have to cook since the most interesting part, the castings, are mild enough that you can pop seeds in it.

In fact, I use a water extract of the castings to soak my seeds in and then pour it on the seedling mix after I plant the seeds. The microbes in the castings fight off damping off disease which I understand to be a pathogenic fungus of some type.

It's all the other stuff that you add to this base mix that could burn your plants if you don't give the microbes sufficient time to bind them all up.

I've been experimenting with swapping the CSPM out for aged leaf mold with good success so far. The leaf mold is a fungal process and brings its own set of microbes to the table as well as a bunch of minerals from deep in the earth where the tree roots bring them up. Also loads easier to rehydrate when it dries out. Good stuff!

Looking through my notes I pulled this up from a thread from June, 2020. Message #4 posted by @bobrown14 lists the base "holy trinity" as 1/3 Peat Moss, 1/3 Perlite or other aeration, and 1/3 Humus which is compost. The recipe indicates that 'worm castings' can be up to 25% of the Humus and not the entire 1/3 of the base mix.

Link to the message in the thread mentioned:
https://www.420magazine.com/community/threads/will-this-soil-mix-work-for-starting-and-maintaining-living-soil.485266/post-4986869

Many of the earlier web page articles and message-board comments have listed the humus third of the mix as being entirely compost. The addition of worm castings would show in in the recipes as an amendment and not one of the Holy Trinity.

My thinking is that the worm castings add additional micro-organisms that will break down the humus and the castings add a lot of quickly available water-soluble nutrients. This is one of the reasons that organic farmers and gardeners added worm castings to their compost piles, to act as a supply of micro-organisms to get the process started quickly.

But if it is entirely castings then without the humus there is no additional organic material for the micro-organisms to 'eat' or break-down so the mix slowly weakens and the plant will start to show deficiencies. The use of all worm-castings might work well for houseplants in windows that we want a controlled slow and steady growth and that we plan on transplanting once a year. But, our Marijuana plants are heavy feeders and to me we should have so much humus in the mix that there is more than enough left over for the next 'grow' or plant.

 

[Azimuth]

Looking through my notes I pulled this up from a thread from June, 2020. Message #4 posted by @bobrown14 lists the base "holy trinity" as 1/3 Peat Moss, 1/3 Perlite or other aeration, and 1/3 Humus which is compost. The recipe indicates that 'worm castings' can be up to 25% of the Humus and not the entire 1/3 of the base mix.

Link to the message in the thread mentioned:
https://www.420magazine.com/community/threads/will-this-soil-mix-work-for-starting-and-maintaining-living-soil.485266/post-4986869

Many of the earlier web page articles and message-board comments have listed the humus third of the mix as being entirely compost. The addition of worm castings would show in in the recipes as an amendment and not one of the Holy Trinity.

My thinking is that the worm castings add additional micro-organisms that will break down the humus and the castings add a lot of quickly available water-soluble nutrients. This is one of the reasons that organic farmers and gardeners added worm castings to their compost piles, to act as a supply of micro-organisms to get the process started quickly.

But if it is entirely castings then without the humus there is no additional organic material for the micro-organisms to 'eat' or break-down so the mix slowly weakens and the plant will start to show deficiencies. The use of all worm-castings might work well for houseplants in windows that we want a controlled slow and steady growth and that we plan on transplanting once a year. But, our Marijuana plants are heavy feeders and to me we should have so much humus in the mix that there is more than enough left over for the next 'grow' or plant.

Those are good points @SmokingWings . I substitute leaf mold for the CSPM third so my mix has more organic matter to break down than the traditional Coots Mix. The worm castings can and do go away quite quickly as you water. I add additional RWC and Leaf Mold as a top dress whenver it runs low to try to keep the organic matter high.

To me, the CSPM is more a long lasting filler that has some organic properties since it is derived from plants. It just seems to stick around for longer than other organics and is super hard to rehydrate when dry which is why I switched it to the leaf mold. It's a new experiment for me though, so it will be interesting to see how far in I can go before the deficiencies start showing up.

I do fertigate with Jadam extracts though since my containers are too small to fuel a grow through the end with enough organics anyway.

Thanks for sharing that post.

 

[SmokingWings]

To me, the CSPM is more a long lasting filler that has some organic properties since it is derived from plants. It just seems to stick around for longer than other organics and is super hard to rehydrate when dry ...

Yep. When Peat Moss gets over dry it becomes hydrophobic and repels the first attempts to water.

My solution to the problem is to not water the peat moss, just mix it in while still dry with the other 2/3 of the basic mix and do a quick stirring. Then start to add some water and continue to stir. Start to add the amendments and if necessary a bit more water. Before long the peat moss has soaked up the water to match the humus. By then it is so fluffy it seems to be closer to perfection than any bag on a pallet at the store.