Original source seeds from the 70's: Yes I have some

[CannaFish]

Excellent thread Big Sur! Made me sign up to 420 mag just to follow it. The notes from your collection read like a field guide for herbal enthusiasts on a landrace trek. Only thing missing are the illustrations.... I like your book idea. Something like this for the growers.... The Complete Cannabis Cultivator

I'm glad to your hear your Durban X-Fire has that morning electricity. It's hard for me to be productive smoking anything that drags me down too much. I'll save that heavy herb for when I'm in my PJs.

Talking about botanical hybrids. In the palm world, I've heard that the female imparts the majority of traits. It always makes me wonder when making cannabis crosses if the female has more influence. DJ Short dives into this in his book. I know that the latest PuntoRojo x MangoBiche cross I made has a mango aroma to it, so the male did have an effect on the flavor profile.

What is your experience with bud structure on the mexicans vs the colombians? In my limited contemporary experience the lumbos have large calyces (bracts?) and the mexicans have really farking tiny bracts and longer pistils too. I'm smoking some good friend's acapulco gold and the aroma is fantastic sweet clean limonene with no dankness. The '73 guerrero x blueberry I tried from last year is very pungent in an expanding herbal, pinesol way. Maybe it's the mint you talk about with Mexicans.

 

[Big Sur]

Excellent thread Big Sur! Made me sign up to 420 mag just to follow it. The notes from your collection read like a field guide for herbal enthusiasts on a landrace trek. Only thing missing are the illustrations.... I like your book idea. Something like this for the growers.... The Complete Cannabis Cultivator

Welcome over to 420 CannaFish! Yes, I bought the Complete Cannabis Cultivator book back in 1969 or 1970. I still have it. One of the best books written about growing weed, really. Simple, with some advanced methods for that time.

As for male influence, in my Durban Ape cross (Grape Ape x Durban landrace) the results were cool. They bloomed like GDP/Grape Ape and they had these skinny sativa leaves like their father. Here is a photo of the early bloom on that cross. The buds really fattened up (but apparently I did not take a photo of them just before harvesting). The brother of this plant had more of an indica leaf. They say that is recessive, but I wonder.

As for the name Durban Crossfire, I originally called it Double Durban, but some goon at an Oregon mj seed company took that name, so I changed mine. I believe that I sent you some of those beans. They came out well this year in the test grow. Photos are above in this thread. Half were all sativa phenos with open loose flowers and more true Durban smell to them. The other half had more dense blooms but they were not compact like indicas. They all sparkled with trichomes. And the scent has sandalwood and anise, with lemon. The father's terpenes dominate the children more in these, as the mother had little scent. And the mother grew in a milder summer last year.

 

[Big Sur]

What is your experience with bud structure on the mexicans vs the colombians? In my limited contemporary experience the lumbos have large calyces (bracts?) and the mexicans have really farking tiny bracts and longer pistils too. I'm smoking some good friend's acapulco gold and the aroma is fantastic sweet clean limonene with no dankness. The '73 guerrero x blueberry I tried from last year is very pungent in an expanding herbal, pinesol way. Maybe it's the mint you talk about with Mexicans.

Colombians varied a lot from different regions, though I have not grown nearly as many of them as Mexicans. They both had a lot of white pistils. Not unlike the landrace Durbans. The calyxes in all landrace Latin American strains are narrow as compared to fat indicas. A book I was reading on early Cannabis/Marijuana breeding claimed that early breeders went after more hairs (pistils) thinking that the hairs were psychotropic, and were naive of the fact that fat calyxes result in more trichomes. That assumption about naivete is inaccurate though, as pretty much all we had in the mid 1970s were bag weed sativa beans from Mexico, Thailand and Colombia. A very few people had Afghani beans and bred strains like skunk with them. Afghani beans did not come in Afghan hashish, someone had to go there and get the beans and bring them back. Afghanistan was not easy to get to, and always part of some major disaster like drought, Russian invasion, or political turmoil.

Pine is really common in both Colombian and Mexican landraces. They both have a lot of alpha- and beta-pinene terpenes in them, and some limonene to accentuate it. Back in the early days of growing in Big Sur (mid 1970s), my friends thought that the pinene was coming from the Monterey pines that the mj plants were growing next to. But that was not the case. Cannabis plants build all the terpenes from base isoprene molecules inside the plants, and its genetic as to which terpenes they make and at what percentages. Not sure that Guerrero strains would have had much mint in them. More likely you are getting pinene in there. The Guerrero that I had did not have a lot of mint. Mint was common in low grade brick weed though. Oaxacan strains commonly had the mint flavor as the Indios there bred them favoring terpenes for making teas and not for smoking from about 1525 to 1860 or so. It is dominant in one landrace Oaxacan strain that I have. I am not sure if it is from terpineol or borneol which are found in mint and basil. Borneol kills cancer cells. So its good for lunch and breast cancer patients. Pinesol is all pinene. Expanding... that was common in all Colombian and Mexican landraces. You took a big hit and it expanded your lungs. It is now known that pinene is good for asthma, as it opens your airways.

Terpenes were not prevalent in a lot of Mexican and Colombian bag weed because they dried the colas in the sun, which strips terpenes, and then they cured and stored them at higher temps, which also strips terpenes. Later on Colombian weed was typically bricked green and fermented en route to the US, and that removed more terpenes or created other ones. The loose tops were always better in aroma and flavor, leading to a superior high. We did not get the full ensemble of terpenes from 'lumbo and Mexican weed until we started growing them in NorCal. That is where the pine and mint really opened up from these guys. The weed was fresh, and hence more terps were present. Also growing/curing methods, location and environment has a huge impact on weed and resulting terpene profiles. Growing inland in Carmel Valley where it was hot and dry resulted in different weed than when the same strain was grown Big Sur, where it is a lot cooler and there is a lot of fog. We did not know this then though.

 

[Big Sur]

OMG, I just posted another long email. Must be because I need to reinforce my (what did the douchebags say on MNS about me?)... to reinforce my fake stories about living in the Monterey Bay area in the 60s/70s, being a chef there and riding around on my motorcycle, partying my ass off and smoking weed. Yeah, that's why I do it. To live another life vicariously. Except it really was my life! I bought a new Suzuki GS750 in Monterey in 1977 to replace my blown up dirt bike. I was also the chef, sous chef, garde manger or line cook at a dozen plus restaurants and hotels in the Monterey Bay area, San Francisco and San Diego. Or maybe someome else did all that, and I somehow got his memory of it all?

 

[CannaFish]

Thanks for the updates BigSur. The durbans sound killer with the anise, sandalwood, etc... The grape ape x durban is like your version of cherry pie
Are you happy with the lebanese this year?

It's funny someone called you a highwayman over at MNS lol!

I was lucky to work in places like Big Sur, Sonoma, Mexico etc... I never spent much time at any destination, but there's a lot amazing locales out west that some people can't even imagine. Especially a flatlander like me.

The strongest herb experience I ever had was in Jamaica. It had probably been a week since I had smoked last. 4 or 5 hits through a wood pipe and I thought the weed was bunk. 20 minutes later I was sweating and noided beyond belief. Wet towels and belly breathing finally got me to come back down. The weed was brown and was probably sweated a bit. I threw the seeds away lol. The best canna experience of all was a friend's so called afghan hash that I had while in NY. I smoked it for 2 weeks straight and it turned my life around in a good way. Everything made sense that was confusing me in the past and I had a very elevated thought process that was totally righteous!

I was just a baby when you were freezing those seeds in the 70s. But even by the time I was in college in the early 90's we were still smoking seeded mexican buds for years before I ever saw any "hydro". The mexican was always stimulating, creative, great for music, drinking, girls, etc... Names like Mex Red Hair and "creeper" bud. KGB if it was fresh. And that hydro bud was strong smoke, but nobody in our crew talked or did anything productive but eat tacos. I tried growing some of the mexicans back when I was younger but never any real success. Fast FWD 25 years and the colombians are my best growers and go to smoke, but I'm dying to try some of the other classics like the durban and thai.

 

[Big Sur]

Thanks for the updates BigSur. The durbans sound killer with the anise, sandalwood, etc... The grape ape x durban is like your version of cherry pie
Are you happy with the lebanese this year?

Yes, except my Durban Ape is more what I wanted from Cherry Pie. Cherry Pie sold here is more GDP than Durban and more medical in effect. it is disappointing for me. This Durban Ape that I bred is way more trippy and more on the Durban end of things. Like a slow moving roller coaster. Or a water flume ride. I had lots of stuff to do yesterday, but instead I got into my hot tub and enjoyed the Durban Grape experience. Its party weed. Its dance around the house naked weed. It also allows for mental clarity, and I solved 3 problems I had sitting in the hot tub. It has the Grape Ape buzz and the Durban lift. 1 minute after taking a hit I knew I liked this stuff. 5 minutes later I was soaring. Its a winner. I should enter this into the Oregon Grower's Cup. Except its $250 to enter a strain this year, though that comes with "free" (meaning not free) testing. And also costs $40 for membership. Is it worth it? I do not sell seeds or grow commercial weed here. Dunno what I would do with a cup. Brag about it? Or shut them up with it over on MNS?

I am very happy with the Lebbies, yes. Early finishing here outdoors so it is harvested before the weather turns here. Most of what I smoke is the Lebanese. All around weed for me. Not too strong, not too stony, cuts the pain, puts me in a good mood. One hit and I am good for an hour or three. I have also made an electric ice cream maker into a hash machine to make Lebby hash with now. I am just waiting for freezing weather so I can run it with frozen weed outside. Then I will have fulfilled my dream of growing and making my own Lebanese Red hashish. I can also store more stone that way and stay under the legal medical limits here.

-The "Highwayman" ....

Yes, riding my GS750 down Highway 1 from Monterey to Big Sur. I did that hundreds of times when I was a chef. I have that coastline committed to memory. I also saw Chris Kristofferson at one of the Big Sur Folk Festivals. He was one of the four "Highwaymen" to come later. Joan Baez was also there that day. It was at Eselen. I recall a super stoned-out skinny long haired hippie coming up to me and saying, "May the fleas of a thousand gypsies lay their eggs in your Rice Crispies." I must have been 14 at the time. I was not smoking then, but there was a strong contact high going around there that day, and lots of smoke in the air. So I must have been mildly stoned, one way or another.

 

[Big Sur]

One thing to note about the latest overbred OG-whatever strains vs landraces like Lebanese. Many strains are related to OG Kush. Here are the genetic relatives of OG Kush, which is hopelessly overloaded, so you do not see the full complement of related tested strains:

Phylos Certified Genotype

Compare that to a Lebanese landrace which has nothing closely related to it. Seemingly Lebanese has not been used in any other strains tested by Phylos. Obviously the market is crazy for OG crosses and not Lebanese:

Phylos Certified Genotype

 

[CannaFish]

BigSur have you grown or smoked a verified OG cut? What do rate it?

I have a hard time navigating the phylos galaxy but I find it interesting how OG and Chem are genetically distant to the colombians

 

[Big Sur]

Yes, I have grown what is considered the best OG Kush in these parts, the Ghost cut. That and the Tahoe cut are said to be the best of the original OG Kush cuts. Ghost is clone-only and also said to be the mother of all the other OG Kush strains. But the story of OG Kush is so varied and debated, it is hard to say where it originated. I was disappointed with OH Kush. I got the expected results, and it was ~very~ potent, but it is not my type of weed. I am into sativa highs, and not indica lows. I wound up making it into hash oil and blending it with shea butter, bees wax, grape seed oil and CBD crystals and I use it as a skin salve. It works pretty good for that.

I am not surprised at all that OG Kush is far from Colombian genetics. OG is dominated by indica genetics. Colombian is pure sativa. Galaxy's 3-D map has 'wings', and one wing is indica, and the other is sativa. One issue I have with Phylos is that I have to wonder what the validity of their land race and heirloom strains are for using as benchmarks. I mean, anyone can call any strain whatever they want. It seems that many seed companies do exactly that. Also in the case of Colombian Gold, a lot of bag weed was called Colombian gold in my day that was actually green-bricked and fermented lowland Colombian Red (Punta Roja). It was more of a brown color. That stuff put me under the table all the time. I am not sure if it had a lot of CBN in it from the fermentation, or it was old weed and a lot of the THC decomposed into CBN, or both. Santa Marta Colombian Gold had a clear headed (if not speedy headed) high to it. As for what is the original OG Kush, that is still debated, as well as where it was bred and what strains were used.

 

[Big Sur]

So I germinated these tired skunk beans this year. Of 7 that I soaked, 6 germinated. 3 of those stalled out for some reason (they likely would have done better if I had given them a boost with GA), and 3 grew to true leaf stage. One got hit by dampening off, my mistake for not keeping up with the H2O2 spray for that. Of the 2 that were left, they reached 6 inches high in the GH and then one got eaten by a random slug. The whole plant! So one survived. It was a she. I bloomed her out and just finished drying the buds, and they are curing now. Not much in the way of skunk smell in this, but these are old NorCal beans and likely skunk will be hit and miss in them. So I took a hit of a bud the other day and WHAM! Strawberry taste filled my mouth. Damn. I did not expect that. It had a slight skunk after taste to it, but wow. Straw-bear-ee. So I am trying to re-veg that plant under lights now. Its a keeper, if only for the terpenes. The high did not seem that strong to me, but that can vary from day to day. I get stoned so much some days I often times do not feel stoned... until I go to the grocery store or something. Then I realize that I am stoned.

Strawberry Skunk? Uncle Fester's skunk beans were said to be like this.

 

[lazyfish]

MMMM mm mmm straberry skunk! mmm! Do you not take clones just in case?

 

[Big Sur]

MMMM mm mmm straberry skunk! mmm! Do you not take clones just in case?

Small late stared plant, and I had other clone projects going in the cloner (Durban, Grape and Maui). I have alsways been able to re-veg any plants that I like after cutting blooms. This one is struggling. Now I am wondering if it is an auto? It has some small sprouts now that are resisting growing any more under lights. The Maui and Durbans are all flushed out again with new leaves under the same lights now. This is an odd one. Or an odd batch of seeds. Terminator genes? Dunno. I have a half oz of this bud. Not sure about the high. The taste is amazing though.

 

[lazyfish]

Interesting. What is Terminator?

 

[Big Sur]

Interesting. What is Terminator?

Not to be confused with the likes of Terminator OG which is a strain...

Terminator genetics come in several flavors. In some species pf plants, they are suspected of being developed to make sure that plants cannot be cloned or re-vegged after flowering. Which is believed to come from autoflowering genes in plants like Cannabis. Autos ~can~ be cloned though, but it is difficult to do. Once the clock starts ticking in autos, they will bloom in so many days, regardless of sunlight. Thus any clones will have the same clock already set to flower when taken. Some very advanced growers say that autos can be cloned but I have never seen it done myself.

There are other types of terminator genetics as well. One method is to restrict male genetics from being released by selling only "feminized" or female only seeds, and thus the females cannot reproduce to create seeds. Another method is where companies like Monsanto have developed a terminator gene in seeds with GMO. Their "terminator seeds" are modified to only last one generation with sterile pollen to ensure that farmers have to annually purchase new seeds. This method poses an environmental concern being that it significantly reduces crop diversity and introduces many GMOs into the environment that may be picked up by wild strains of the same plant species, thus rendering them sterile as well. More on this in my next post.

 

[Big Sur]

the following is from the wed site: Monsanto and Terminator Seeds | Open Case Studies

In March 1998, Delta and Land Pine Company of Scott, Mississippi received the patent for the genetically engineered terminator seed. This seed prohibits the natural evolution of the crops from occurring, and instead stop the growth process of the seeds’ second generation before they can mature. Monsanto claims the terminator seed would solve the problem they created of genetically modified crops contaminating neighbouring crops. Fear quickly arose from this announcement, and later became a governmental concern once giant agricultural biotechnology corporation, Monsanto acquired Delta and Land Pine Company – mastermind behind the feared terminator seed. Although Monsanto pledged to not commercialize the seed, tensions grew between chemical, seed and biotechnological companies; meanwhile movements against the terminator seed were led by consumers, environmentalist and sustainable development activists. Monsanto claims the terminator seed would solve the problem they created of genetically modified crops contaminating neighbouring crops.
These genetically modified seeds have little benefits to the farmers. Those who are in advantage are the seed companies. The seed prevents farmers from re-planting seeds throughout the seasons by producing a sterile seed, which is unable to reproduce. This forces the farmer to turn to commercial seeds, profiting the large corporations and “creating greater dependency on proprietary seeds and their companion chemicals”. Another advantage would be the improvements for monopoly seed pricing decreasing price discrimination between farmers. But this again benefits the seed corporations as well, by paying farmers equally, with no risk of paying a farmer who reuses their seeds (less expensive for the farmer) the same as a farmer who does not.
Aggressive marketing schemes target uneducated farmers, unable to see through the scientific claims being promoted by the major agrochemical corporations. The introduction of the terminator seed means the traditional method of saving seeds for certain environmental conditions is obsolete. Without a farmer’s ability to alter their seeds as environmental conditions change, their resources will deplete. Those who can’t afford to replace seeds seasonally, such as those in developing countries, are greatly impacted by the disposability of the terminator seed. Poorer farmers of the tropics and sub-tropics produce 15-20 percent of the world’s food, and encourage genetic diversity in plant breeding. Not only are the farmers at a loss, but also the population’s food security. Even for the better off farmers of developing countries are at risk, as the need to re-purchase seeds increase costs and control through licensing agreements, leaving the resource-poor farmers to “los[e] their ability to determine their own lives – transforming them to meet the demand of their new masters”. This isolates farmers from the corporations, harming their much-needed relationship.
The terminator seed has the ability to decrease crop diversity, pollinate nearby crops with the sterile gene, as well as wipe out agricultural populations, leading the debate to a question of ethics. Although the seeds are intended for the use of already genetically modified, if disease strikes within the crop, it can wipe out the entire field. This negatively impacts the farmer, the species and the population that relies on the farm’s outputs. With the reduction of feasible crops because of terminator seed complications within developing countries means the dependency on developed countries. This reliance produces severe marginalization and “diminution of its powers of self-determination”. While major corporations argue the need for technological advancements and control in agriculture to cater to the world’s food demand, organizations counter argue that this can only be achieved through common ownership, biodiversity and ecosystem conscious approaches.

 

[Big Sur]

In another slant on terminator genetics, Arjan at Green House Seeds is working to terminate genetics by selling only feminized Cannabis seeds of his strains. This ensures that people cannot create their own seeds, and thus they have to come back to him to buy more seeds every year. Which in my opinion is quite evil, and as Arjan has said in many interviews, quite intentional on his part. He wants the world to have only feminized seeds. Meanwhile he retains a huge library of landrace genetics that he has collected that will never be released or made available to the public.

David Watson (known by many names, including skunkman) is another hoarder of a huge library of landrace Cannabis genetics from around the world. He and/or HortaPharm likley has the largest single collection of wild and ladnrace Cannabis genetics in existence. His company HortaPharm in Holland have been working on a method to create females only Cannabis plants that cannot produce seeds. This from: Prop. 19, Monsanto, and GMO Terminator Cannabis

The following article published in the UK Independent on September 27, 1998, Interviewed Mr. Watson on the intent of his research in Cannabis with his company HortaPharm:

“It looks like dope, but really it’s hope,” explains David Watson. What he means is that many of these plants have been specifically bred not to produce an intoxicating resin or hashish. Indeed, HortaPharm hopes to thwart the aims of the average recreational user.”

The team is already close to finding their own commercial Holy Grail – seeds that will produce a one-off, female, seedless crop of plants with no psychotropic effects for the consumer. Why, you might ask, would they want to do that?

HortaPharm is only interested in developing female plants that are sterile, but this is not just to protect their genetic copyright. “If a plant is not kept busy producing seeds, all its energy can go into resin production,” says Watsons Dutch colleague and biochemist Etienne de Meijer.

 

[Big Sur]

In a really warped and weird twist as things have progressed with Cannabis seed and strain collecting, landrace strains are not the only thing that are becoming extinct in the wild. Genetics and males are also being restricted and horded by the greedy likes of Watson and Roskam and becoming more rare. Landrace sativas are also now rather rare and most strains are tainted with some or a lot of indica genetics. Case in point: Zac Purple/BSHW vs SAGE. Also feminized genetics have become more and more prominent in modern strains, along with hermaphrodite genetics that result from sloppy or chance feminized seed making from natural herms. Auto flowering genetics have also crept into many modern strains. As a result of all of this, regular photo period flowering plants and seeds, and more importantly fertile male plants, are becoming a rarity.

A look at GHS web site, every seed sold there is now feminized, and many are autos. I49/California Seed Bank has one and only one regular strain of seeds listed for sale (Durban Poison), and they are sold out. Many of their seeds are also autos. They claim to be in California, but they are really in Canada. These sites also only seem to sell hybrids, and few if any 100% sativas. Barneys lists only ONE 100% sativa strain on their web site. One? Barneys also now only has SIX regular seeds listed.

We are being TERMINATED!

 

[Graytail]

You should start a seed house.

 

[Big Sur]

You should start a seed house.

I looked into selling out of Europe, but it is way too complicated. I would have to ship them to Spain where the only people that I trust to do this are in the EU. Then they would have to ship them out of Spain. The people I know there cannot do those kinds of transactions. Nor do they have the time. Payment and banking is another issue, along with taxes, advertising, complaining customers (*) etc. etc. Then there is the DEA, current US federal and various state laws, etc. etc. If/when the US changes the schedules and allows for US posting of seeds, it will not happen. So it may never happen. For now I can legally give people seeds in this state, and they can give me seeds. So at the local and state level my trades are legal. No cash is involved, so the DEA is not interested. Canada so far only allows gov't run Cannabis sales, so even though it is legal there, it is not legal for anyone to set up shop there and sell Cannabis products.

*Case in point here, I have already had people PM me here on 420 complaining about seeds that they thought I bred, or that they thought that they bought from me. As I have said over and over, I have never sold a seed in my life. Save for bag weed that I moved back on the day, but they were not paying for the seeds. Funny, except for the hash, it was all sativa then, it was all landrace strains then (most of it was anyway) and they were all regular beans. Some genetic herms naturally occured, but it was very rare. Autos were non-existent. The world has flipped its lid on Cannabis genetics.

 

[Weaselcracker]

BigSur I’m wondering if you can say a little more detail about your seed storing methods? I keep mine in the freezer as well and that works fine. But I’m reluctant to bring them in and out much for fear of problems from freezing/thawing, and condensation. This kind of limits my time admiring my seed collection - it made me wonder how you organize yours. Cheers