Plant Alchemy With KNF: Korean Natural Farming And Jadam

[Azimuth]

So, a bit of a change of plans for 'Next Plant Up.' I'm going to up-pot a plant in two days in my prototype 2 Gal SIP bucket to send to flower in a couple of weeks after it gets some roots established in the larger container. I will describe the SIP pot construction tomorrow after I finish the build.

I had planned to use the new cbg seedling but that thing has just been a monster after being started in a SIP from the start. The internode spacing is too wide, the stems too strong for my normal training process and now it is showing deficiencies a couple of weeks earlier than any of the other plants had. The thing is just a beast compared to the others. It's also showing early signs of bug damage. I'm going to try to clone it and see if I can get it to fit a bit better in the mix as a clone. The longer internodal spacing is typical when compared to other seedlings I've grown, but this one has been in another league.

I also have a Northern Lights 5 that's vegged for a while and it too is showing some deficiencies (mostly N), so I'm brewing an aerated worm casting tea that I'll give to all the plants tomorrow and then will up-pot the NL5 in the new SIP the next day. I haven't brewed a tea in at least a couple of years so this will be a bit of a flashback.

My brewer is an air lift type and for this batch I used 4 gal of rain water, 4 lbs (2.5 quarts) of fresh worm castings, 1oz (2T) of unsulfered molasses and 1T of my FAA (Fish Amino Acid). I'll let it brew for 24 hours and then filter it through a 5 gal paint strainer bag and use some on all of the gardens and then bottle the rest and see if it remains viable in the coming weeks. The filtered concentrate will get diluted 1:10 with rain water for application.

 

[Azimuth]

*** 2 Gal SIP Prototype Build ***

Sips (Sub Irrigated Planters) are plant containers with a built-in water reservoir and air gap in the bottom of the container. Every single plant I've grown with them has been super successful but they've been limited to 1Q/1L containers in my veg space so I thought I'd scale it up a bit for my flower box.

The biggest size I can go to is a 2 Gallon/8L bucket and my DIY version follows below. For those not DIY inclined or who would rather purchase something off the shelf, they can find a 5 Gal bucket insert on the 'Zon called a 'GrowTec Garden GroBucket' for between $12-$18 US depending on quantity purchased.

The typical DIY version calls for a nested pair of 5 Gallon buckets available at any hardware store. Ideally buckets with a thick rim are used, and at least 2.5-3" work best.

The outer bucket has a single small drainage hole on the side of the bucket about an inch or so below where the inner bucket's bottom will be when they are stacked together. The distance from the hole to the bottom of the outer bucket defines the water reservoir, and the distance from the hole to the bottom of the inner bucket defines the air gap that provides air to the lower roots and is what I believe to be the real secret to the success of these things.

The inner bucket will have a hole in the bottom near the side to slide a fill tube through to use when adding water through the inner bucket to the reservoir, and a second, larger hole in the center of the bottom to accommodate a cup that will bridge the gap between the two bucket bottoms. That cup can be anything from a solo cup, to a net pot, or standard nursery pot. Really anything that will hold a soil mix and has enough holes or slits to readily absorb water.

A standard planting medium is often used and packed pretty firmly in the cup and acts as a wick, pulling water from the lower bucket reservoir and distributing it the the potting mix above through capillary action. Alternatively, coco could be used in this connector cup.

Finally, lots of small drainage holes are made in the bottom of the inner bucket to allow excess water to drain and to aid in air pruning any adventurous roots that go exploring.

That's it. Pretty simple construction and a  very effective container.

Since I'm quite space challenged and don't have enough height for nested 2G buckets, I have to make do with one. To do so I created a 'false floor' by cutting one out a bucket lid which serves the same purpose as the inner bucket. If I had the height it would have been much easier to use a second bucket.

I added a second fill tube on the opposite side of the bucket, and both are suspended so that they protrude slightly below the false floor and into the air cavity but not all the way down to the water reservoir. My theory is that the air provided to the roots is the magic ingredient and the second fill tube provides a better opportunity for air flow vs a dead end with just one.

I'm not a fan of the wicking properties of these systems and, given the high percentage of organic matter in my mix, I'd rather not have it constantly submerged in water which could lead to anaerobic conditions, and with my 1L containers I've already proven that the concept works great without wicking.

So, my other modification to the standard set-up is that I use hydroton clay balls in my connector cup and build in an air chamber in that cup by using a second, smaller yogurt cup upside down and pour the clay balls around this inner cup. The clay balls provide the structure for the roots to grow around and the yogurt cup provides an extra air chamber right up the center of the lower root ball.

The connector cup with the hydroton balls hangs down into the reservoir which holds 58 oz or about 1.72L of water.

I built a larger version for my vegetable garden this spring using 4" drainage pipe to define the reservoir and the plants growing in it are the healthiest and most robust garden plants I've ever grown so I'm looking forward to seeing what this 2G version will do for me in flower. The largest pot I've ever used in flower was 1G so this should make quite a difference!

I'll be up-potting my NL5 plant tomorrow to give this SIP its maiden run. This should be fun!

 

[ReservoirDog]

I wonder if you have the same conclusion in that root rot doesn't seem to be a significant concern with this set-up even though in theory it would seem perfectly set up for that problem.

How I'd sum it up is that regardless basic design, root rot was of paramount concern to all users I came across. They were also as surprised, as I am, to have never confronted the issue even when an individual had specific concern due to consistent high moisture level. A lot of theories inevitably get thrown around as to what might be preventing it and being primarily LOS growers their theories were LOS-based. I noted numerous times that growers in SIPs fretted over conditions they considered over-wet, yet time and again results were phenomenal. This is not to say that the SIPs growers I sampled on forums primarily suffered from over-wet soils, what I mean is that of the ones who noted consistent concern over being possibly too wet, all had excellent outcomes. Moisture levels can be controlled to some extent by the level/amount of water permitted in the reservoir.

I suspect that the wet-dryback irrigation model is benefitting the grower only, as a steady-state scenario like SIPs removes another environment variable that plants have to expend energy adapting to.

This system can be easily converted to a multi-site, reservoir fed, completely passive gravity-only type using a control reservoir to set the water height for all buckets/sites, but the site-connector pipe needs to come in as low as possible. Water levels are set inside the control bucket using a three position floater-style switch giving you three water levels to choose from. It would be simple to add isolator valves that would permit you to take the site off the system and go back to the individual level-set config. if desired.

The Octopot user manual stresses, time and again, the need for a 60,40 soil-aeration mix. They say it for peat, coco, soil and even super soils. When you look at their design you see a tall, cylindrical, soft-sided pot given form by a strong wire mesh. Their pots appear to be almost 24 inches high, and sit atop a small net pot-style 'foot' as wick, which simply contains planting matrix. Obviously, given their tall pot design and small wicking 'foot', insufficient wicking is not the issue, in fact it appears they felt the need to design such a tall, breathable pot in order to work against the capillary action to some degree. The tall, breathable pot, and insistence on 40% perlite, these things tell me that root rot and over-irrigation are at least a potential issue. I copied many features of Octopot in my builds but I think the 1-inch airspace between planter bottom and reservoir top is the most important. Note, however, many users who feared root rot because they felt conditions were too wet, ultimately had no issues.

Here's an oddity: regardless the design all users had root growth down to at least the top half of their wicking foot, regardless its size or composition.

Octopot's and my own design do offer a soil moisture adjustment feature based on how much water is in the reservoir, but it is quite minimal in effect. Octapot is very keen to have users understand the importance of hydrotropism and how it will positively impact their grow. They practically beg the grower not to water the plant from above, ever, at any time, regardless how dry soil is at top. They explain that the plant senses moisture below and will grow different kinds of roots for different depths/moisture levels. To water from top on a plant with this morphology can rot the roots because they are not designed for that much moisture. The benefit of this design is that the plant gets to design its own morphology, indiv. roots for indiv. tasks and if we simply maintain the rez then nature can go about its biz most efficiently. This makes a great deal of sense to me.

This really wasn't a KNF topic and I apologize if I've commandeered the thread; I'll bring my thoughts on this to a close momentarily.

With respect to adding LABs, every grower I came across in the various fora who tried it, stopped trying it. The smell became quite foul in every case. This is at least 5 growers. A light mix of EM1 seemed to go over fine, and some use of local microbial solutions used also. Many users used gro-kashi and all utilized a mulch, prob. 30/70 dead/living. I use burlap. I too have a personal benny mix that seems to work fine, mine is there merely to keep roots clean and I sourced it via blackwater treatment supplier to keep costs down. Unfortunately, the LABs experience really seemed to put a lot of people off using any FPJs or any KNF/JADAM liquids without even trying. By far the greatest amendment application type was to apply surface dry amendment and water in from above. I think watering SIPs from above is not only counterproductive but destructive, compacting the soil, and potentially taking up space needed for air/co2 depending on SIP design, but most of all it confuses the hell out of the plant.

I have enough homegrown Grow, Bloom and "special extra" fermented fertilizers to soon be available for trials, likely in the fall. Here, in the heart of suburbia, after bumping into this thread I started mixing applicable permaculture techniques, Korean Natural Farming and Jadam. After ripping up all the grass I transformed my front yard this year into a cornucopia of comfrey, stinging nettles, horsetail ferns, ginger, potatoes, poppies and a giant (for me) raised bed full of veggies. Now I'm growing not just my own food, my own medicine, but my own fertilizers too. And I'm, "disabled!" Thank you so much for planting this signpost in the ground and maintaining it, Azimuth, it's made an appreciable difference in not only my life but my family's and my neighbours - who themselves are now in revolutionary spirits.

Whenever someone tells me, "One man cannot change the world!" I tell them it's the only thing that ever has. Thanks Azimuth, and 420 fam.

 

[Azimuth]

This is not to say that the SIPs growers I sampled on forums primarily suffered from over-wet soils, what I mean is that of the ones who noted consistent concern over being possibly too wet, all had excellent outcomes.

That's what I've found in my research as well. NOONE actually had root rot but most new adapters were concerned about that possibility. Seems very counterintuitive, but there it is. I've started reading thru some of the Grasscity threads, but when I search IC for 'sip' it tells me it is too short a search string and gives me an error.

But, so far what I've read hasn't turned up anything other than concern about the potential that a too wet soil mix would bring.

This system can be easily converted to a multi-site, reservoir fed, completely passive gravity-only type using a control reservoir to set the water height for all buckets/sites, but the site-connector pipe needs to come in as low as possible. Water levels are set inside the control bucket using a three position floater-style switch giving you three water levels to choose from. It would be simple to add isolator valves that would permit you to take the site off the system and go back to the individual level-set config. if desired.

I think this would be a great system for a greenhouse grow, much like Beto Buckets. Line 'em all up, put them on a gravity fed system or maybe a pump and timer system and let it rip. Alas, I'll only have 3-4 plants at a time in my small system so individual units seem the most practical.

I copied many features of Octopot in my builds but I think the 1-inch airspace between planter bottom and reservoir top is the most important. Note, however, many users who feared root rot because they felt conditions were too wet, ultimately had no issues.

The air cavity has to be the difference maker. Much like dwc, roots don't rot because of ample air. There's no other way for me to explain the lack of any root rot from all the different users of this structure. With all the different levels of growing experience, media, pot size, etc., there seems to be a total lack of root rot reports. That's what I find amazing about these pots. World-class results for even new growers. Little experience needed. It really is amazing these things haven't caught on more. The difference in results with the pot being the only difference is really astonishing.

Here's an oddity: regardless the design all users had root growth down to at least the top half of their wicking foot, regardless its size or composition.

I get roots all the way to the bottom and then some. I'm actually surprised some get it only half way and wonder what the difference is. My reservoirs go dry daily once the roots get going and I do notice more root growth when that happens so, much like in soil with the wet/dry cycle to encourage root growth, the same appears to apply here, only on a much faster cycle.

Octopot's and my own design do offer a soil moisture adjustment feature based on how much water is in the reservoir, but it is quite minimal in effect.

Care to expound? I see Octopot has three different levels they suggest keeping the water at depending on the growth stage. Is this what you're speaking of, or something different?

They practically beg the grower not to water the plant from above, ever, at any time, regardless how dry soil is at top. They explain that the plant senses moisture below and will grow different kinds of roots for different depths/moisture levels. To water from top on a plant with this morphology can rot the roots because they are not designed for that much moisture. The benefit of this design is that the plant gets to design its own morphology, indiv. roots for indiv. tasks and if we simply maintain the rez then nature can go about its biz most efficiently. This makes a great deal of sense to me.

I noticed that when reading through their material. Why would this be any different from a normal pot regarding soil compaction? And more compaction should actually be better for capillary action, no? I mean the standard advice is to compress the wicking cup material significantly to facilitate moisture transfer. Of course too compact a soil mix hinders root development but I wouldn't think top watering here would be much different from a normal pot in terms of compaction.

This really wasn't a KNF topic and I apologize if I've commandeered the thread; I'll bring my thoughts on this to a close momentarily.

No worries here. I view this thread as an exploration on how to use KNF and Jadam natural ferments to grow our plants. That includes production and delivery. So, if a different delivery option or pot structure or whatever can enhance their use, I'm all for experimentation of the variables. I tried using the extracts in the reservoir without success, but feeding them from the top seems to work great. But, in the process of trying to deliver them in a hydro-type way I've discovered a great pot design that I now incorporate into my grow.

With respect to adding LABs, every grower I came across in the various fora who tried it, stopped trying it. The smell became quite foul in every case. This is at least 5 growers. A light mix of EM1 seemed to go over fine, and some use of local microbial solutions used also.

Interesting, especially considering LABs can work in an anaerobic environment. Maybe there's also a relationship to my experiment pitting LAB against my castings, and the substantial difference in results. Maybe the lack of microbe diversity in LABs brings other issues.

Unfortunately, the LABs experience really seemed to put a lot of people off using any FPJs or any KNF/JADAM liquids without even trying. By far the greatest amendment application type was to apply surface dry amendment and water in from above.

True for me. Although I do also water at least once a week from above with FAA or Comfrey JLF, etc. If I don't, the mix dries way out and pulls away from the pot sides, and I imagine that all of the microbes I want to be active go dormant or die, so I try to keep the top layer moist as well misting the top layer at least once a day and adding new microbes at least weekly in the form of castings tea or JMS, etc.

I think watering SIPs from above is not only counterproductive but destructive, compacting the soil, and potentially taking up space needed for air/co2 depending on SIP design, but most of all it confuse

I don't see it any different from watering a normal pot. Why do you think it destructive?

I have enough homegrown Grow, Bloom and "special extra" fermented fertilizers to soon be available for trials, likely in the fall. Here, in the heart of suburbia, after bumping into this thread I started mixing applicable permaculture techniques, Korean Natural Farming and Jadam. After ripping up all the grass I transformed my front yard this year into a cornucopia of comfrey, stinging nettles, horsetail ferns, ginger, potatoes, poppies and a giant (for me) raised bed full of veggies. Now I'm growing not just my own food, my own medicine, but my own fertilizers too. And I'm, "disabled!" Thank you so much for planting this signpost in the ground and maintaining it, Azimuth, it's made an appreciable difference in not only my life but my family's and my neighbours - who themselves are now in revolutionary spirits.

Whenever someone tells me, "One man cannot change the world!" I tell them it's the only thing that ever has. Thanks Azimuth, and 420 fam.

I'm looking forward to your reveal on your home grown microbes project. I, too, find the collaboration and sharing of ideas one of the great treasures of this site.

 

[Danishoes21]

*** 2 Gal SIP Prototype Build ***

Sips (Sub Irrigated Planters) are plant containers with a built-in water reservoir and air gap in the bottom of the container. Every single plant I've grown with them has been super successful but they've been limited to 1Q/1L containers in my veg space so I thought I'd scale it up a bit for my flower box.

The biggest size I can go to is a 2 Gallon/8L bucket and my DIY version follows below. For those not DIY inclined or who would rather purchase something off the shelf, they can find a 5 Gal bucket insert on the 'Zon called a 'GrowTec Garden GroBucket' for between $12-$18 US depending on quantity purchased.

The typical DIY version calls for a nested pair of 5 Gallon buckets available at any hardware store. Ideally buckets with a thick rim are used, and at least 2.5-3" work best.

The outer bucket has a single small drainage hole on the side of the bucket about an inch or so below where the inner bucket's bottom will be when they are stacked together. The distance from the hole to the bottom of the outer bucket defines the water reservoir, and the distance from the hole to the bottom of the inner bucket defines the air gap that provides air to the lower roots and is what I believe to be the real secret to the success of these things.

The inner bucket will have a hole in the bottom near the side to slide a fill tube through to use when adding water through the inner bucket to the reservoir, and a second, larger hole in the center of the bottom to accommodate a cup that will bridge the gap between the two bucket bottoms. That cup can be anything from a solo cup, to a net pot, or standard nursery pot. Really anything that will hold a soil mix and has enough holes or slits to readily absorb water.

A standard planting medium is often used and packed pretty firmly in the cup and acts as a wick, pulling water from the lower bucket reservoir and distributing it the the potting mix above through capillary action. Alternatively, coco could be used in this connector cup.

Finally, lots of small drainage holes are made in the bottom of the inner bucket to allow excess water to drain and to aid in air pruning any adventurous roots that go exploring.

That's it. Pretty simple construction and a  very effective container.

Since I'm quite space challenged and don't have enough height for nested 2G buckets, I have to make do with one. To do so I created a 'false floor' by cutting one out a bucket lid which serves the same purpose as the inner bucket. If I had the height it would have been much easier to use a second bucket.

I added a second fill tube on the opposite side of the bucket, and both are suspended so that they protrude slightly below the false floor and into the air cavity but not all the way down to the water reservoir. My theory is that the air provided to the roots is the magic ingredient and the second fill tube provides a better opportunity for air flow vs a dead end with just one.

I'm not a fan of the wicking properties of these systems and, given the high percentage of organic matter in my mix, I'd rather not have it constantly submerged in water which could lead to anaerobic conditions, and with my 1L containers I've already proven that the concept works great without wicking.

So, my other modification to the standard set-up is that I use hydroton clay balls in my connector cup and build in an air chamber in that cup by using a second, smaller yogurt cup upside down and pour the clay balls around this inner cup. The clay balls provide the structure for the roots to grow around and the yogurt cup provides an extra air chamber right up the center of the lower root ball.

The connector cup with the hydroton balls hangs down into the reservoir which holds 58 oz or about 1.72L of water.

I built a larger version for my vegetable garden this spring using 4" drainage pipe to define the reservoir and the plants growing in it are the healthiest and most robust garden plants I've ever grown so I'm looking forward to seeing what this 2G version will do for me in flower. The largest pot I've ever used in flower was 1G so this should make quite a difference!

I'll be up-potting my NL5 plant tomorrow to give this SIP its maiden run. This should be fun!

Thanks for the detailed post, I find it very interesting and would love to try something like this in the future. Really digging the creative approach you bring to growing.

 

[CBDMed]

Hi Azi!
Sorry to crash your party! I am just now getting a little bit of time to review SIPs, and I am now almost out of time, but so far I love what I see!!!
I had to order some hole saws and other things, and now I need to go water the babies, and then I will be out of time for the week, but I got some tools and supplies to build the 5g bucket versions on the way!
May I please ask you some questions?

*** 2 Gal SIP Prototype Build ***

Sips (Sub Irrigated Planters) are plant containers with a built-in water reservoir and air gap in the bottom of the container. Every single plant I've grown with them has been super successful but they've been limited to 1Q/1L containers in my veg space so I thought I'd scale it up a bit for my flower box.

The biggest size I can go to is a 2 Gallon/8L bucket and my DIY version follows below. For those not DIY inclined or who would rather purchase something off the shelf, they can find a 5 Gal bucket insert on the 'Zon called a 'GrowTec Garden GroBucket' for between $12-$18 US depending on quantity purchased.

Ok, I found them locally also. I found a 10 pack for 5g buckets that work out to about $20 each.
The only catch here is that the 5g buckets with lids are clear!
Or I can get smaller trash cans.
Or maybe I could paint the outer bucket, and then leave a small window to show water levels?
Or maybe can I use clear buckets for the 5g version, since I can use my existing fabric pots as an insert in the upper bucket (and the roots can grow through the bottom, as long as it is wet)?
Or I could even cut a hole for the roots in the center, right above the 3" net pot?

The typical DIY version calls for a nested pair of 5 Gallon buckets available at any hardware store. Ideally buckets with a thick rim are used, and at least 2.5-3" work best.

Yeah, that or you have to put some kind of stand (maybe an upside down net pot?) inside the outer bucket, to keep the inner bucket elevated.

The outer bucket has a single small drainage hole on the side of the bucket about an inch or so below where the inner bucket's bottom will be when they are stacked together.

Yes, and then you "water until you get runoff", hahaha?

The distance from the hole to the bottom of the outer bucket defines the water reservoir, and the distance from the hole to the bottom of the inner bucket defines the air gap that provides air to the lower roots and is what I believe to be the real secret to the success of these things.

Ahhh!!!!

The inner bucket will have a hole in the bottom near the side to slide a fill tube through to use when adding water through the inner bucket to the reservoir, and a second, larger hole in the center of the bottom to accommodate a cup that will bridge the gap between the two bucket bottoms. That cup can be anything from a solo cup, to a net pot, or standard nursery pot. Really anything that will hold a soil mix and has enough holes or slits to readily absorb water.

A standard planting medium is often used and packed pretty firmly in the cup and acts as a wick, pulling water from the lower bucket reservoir and distributing it the the potting mix above through capillary action. Alternatively, coco could be used in this connector cup.

Ahhh!!!
I watched a YT video, and the guy recommended coarse perlite. He said it was better to use an inorganic substance, so that no rot occurs.

Finally, lots of small drainage holes are made in the bottom of the inner bucket to allow excess water to drain and to aid in air pruning any adventurous roots that go exploring.

That's it. Pretty simple construction and a  very effective container.

Since I'm quite space challenged and don't have enough height for nested 2G buckets, I have to make do with one. To do so I created a 'false floor' by cutting one out a bucket lid which serves the same purpose as the inner bucket. If I had the height it would have been much easier to use a second bucket.

I added a second fill tube on the opposite side of the bucket, and both are suspended so that they protrude slightly below the false floor and into the air cavity but not all the way down to the water reservoir. My theory is that the air provided to the roots is the magic ingredient and the second fill tube provides a better opportunity for air flow vs a dead end with just one.

Ahh, ok!! Very good insight! Very good to know!

I'm not a fan of the wicking properties of these systems and, given the high percentage of organic matter in my mix, I'd rather not have it constantly submerged in water which could lead to anaerobic conditions, and with my 1L containers I've already proven that the concept works great without wicking.

So, my other modification to the standard set-up is that I use hydroton clay balls in my connector cup and build in an air chamber in that cup by using a second, smaller yogurt cup upside down and pour the clay balls around this inner cup. The clay balls provide the structure for the roots to grow around and the yogurt cup provides an extra air chamber right up the center of the lower root ball.

The connector cup with the hydroton balls hangs down into the reservoir which holds 58 oz or about 1.72L of water.

Ok, great idea!
I found a short DIY. He uses coarse perlite in his. He says there is no possibility of rot that way. Does that make sense?
Is one better than the other? Or both functional?

I built a larger version for my vegetable garden this spring using 4" drainage pipe to define the reservoir and the plants growing in it are the healthiest and most robust garden plants I've ever grown so I'm looking forward to seeing what this 2G version will do for me in flower. The largest pot I've ever used in flower was 1G so this should make quite a difference!

I'll be up-potting my NL5 plant tomorrow to give this SIP its maiden run. This should be fun!

I am looking forward to it!
Sorry I might not have time to catch up on the thread for a while, but at least i can stay tuned going forward??
Thanks for letting me know about this!

 

[Azimuth]

I found a 10 pack for 5g buckets that work out to about $20 each.

Yikes! I get them new from a big box store for $4-5 each, and you can probably get them for free from bakeries, delis or supermarkets if you ask. They often get bulk deliveries of food products like frosting or whatever in those buckets. Then they have to get rid of them.

The only catch here is that the 5g buckets with lids are clear

Obviously they're better opaque so whether you paint them or cover them with fabric you shouldn't leave them clear. I got some square ones that held frosting and I painted them with a couple of coats of spray paint for plastics, first a black layer and then white.

Or I could even cut a hole for the roots in the center, right above the 3" net pot?

You want the water roots to have an unobstructed route to the water so if you used a bag inside the bucket you'd want to do something like that, or even cut the bottom out if the bag altogether or maybe wrap the inside of the clear bucket with burlap or something.

Yes, and then you "water until you get runoff", hahaha?

You can, but I only do that once they're able to drink it all in a day or two at most. When the plants are young I just give them the amount they can use quickly.

I watched a YT video, and the guy recommended coarse perlite. He said it was better to use an inorganic substance, so that no rot occurs.

Ok, great idea!
I found a short DIY. He uses coarse perlite in his. He says there is no possibility of rot that way. Does that make sense?
Is one better than the other? Or both functional?

I've seen lots of different things used, all of which seemed to work fine. Root rot seems to be a common concern and one that I shared but I have yet to hear of an actual case of it with this setup.

 

[Carmen Ray]

Hi Azi, I'm scouting for your plants. You have such an interesting journal in terms of the technical discussions re methodology. I wanna see your trained beast. Where can I find the pics please?

 

[Azimuth]

Sorry, Carmen. I don't do pics for security reasons. Some day, just not yet.

 

[CBDMed]

Yikes! I get them new from a big box store for $4-5 each, and you can probably get them for free from bakeries, delis or supermarkets if you ask. They often get bulk deliveries of food products like frosting or whatever in those buckets. Then they have to get rid of them.

Ahh, no, sorry! I meant I found a 10-pack of the prefab bucket LINER SIP kits (that you drop into a 5g bucket) for a little over $200.USD, which is a good price including shipping, if I go that way.
If I could buy a normal 5g bucket I would consider it seriously (to save time), but it is hard to find normal 5g buckets here. (The supply chain and the way they do business here is different from N. America.)

Obviously they're better opaque so whether you paint them or cover them with fabric you shouldn't leave them clear. I got some square ones that held frosting and I painted them with a couple of coats of spray paint for plastics, first a black layer and then white.

Hmm..... spray paint for plastics.... I am sure I could drive down to the big box and pick that up right away in the US, but that might be more than a little hard to find here in little-old third world Colombia. But there will be some good solution. Maybe I need to hunt harder for opaque 5G buckets.
Opaque trash cans I can get, but not with a lip, so I would have to build support stands to hold up the inner bucket.

You want the water roots to have an unobstructed route to the water so if you used a bag inside the bucket you'd want to do something like that, or even cut the bottom out if the bag altogether or maybe wrap the inside of the clear bucket with burlap or something.

Yeah, then I would only have to shade the roots in the outer bucket. I will have to look at that.
In the video I watched, the man's cloth roots grew right through the bag, but if that was my normal setup, I would probably cut or 3" drill them. for unrestricted access.

 

[Azimuth]

If I could buy a normal 5g bucket I would consider it seriously (to save time), but it is hard to find normal 5g buckets here. (The supply chain and the way they do business here is different from N. America.)

Wow, I thought the 5 gallon bucket was a standard around the world. But whatever you use you should try to make sure it is food grade so the materials don't leach anything into the water which can then be taken up by the plant. Maybe ask around at food places (grocery stores, restaurants, etc.) and see if there's some sort of standard container they get food stuff in bulk sent to them.

Opaque trash cans I can get, but not with a lip, so I would have to build support stands to hold up the inner bucket.

Some sort of stand-off is easy enough. I've used 4" drainage pipe, inverted yogurt and sour cream cups, and stuff like that. The outer container just needs to be water tight.

Yeah, then I would only have to shade the roots in the outer bucket

Could you just wrap the outer container in something like burlap? Wouldn't even have to be all that tight, just something to shade the container. Shielding it from the UV rays of the sun would also help them last longer.

 

[CBDMed]

Wow, I thought the 5 gallon bucket was a standard around the world.

Hahaha, me too!
Well, how can I put this?
"They don't call it the third world for nothing..." hahaha.
The attitudes and priorities here are very different. In some ways good, and in other ways, not so much.

But whatever you use you should try to make sure it is food grade so the materials don't leach anything into the water which can then be taken up by the plant.

Yes, I believe that is the other main issue.
I do not know if there is any access to any food grade materials here. I am not sure they even do that in Bogotá. It is a completely different system here, but I can try again for food grade 5gs.
Other than that, I can color my clear containers as necessary, and use the existing 5g fabric pots with a 3" hole cut in the center, as a sleeve. Then I really only need to shade the roots. There should be some good way to do that.

Maybe ask around at food places (grocery stores, restaurants, etc.) and see if there's some sort of standard container they get food stuff in bulk sent to them.

Hahaha, it is a very different system here!

Some sort of stand-off is easy enough. I've used 4" drainage pipe, inverted yogurt and sour cream cups, and stuff like that. The outer container just needs to be water tight.

Yeah. Something should be doable.
I am thinking using the clear plastic 5gs and using the fabric pots as an inner sleeve.
(It would be nice to have 7g, but I think that is stretching things even in the USA.)

Could you just wrap the outer container in something like burlap?

Sí. Good idea! or something should work!

Wouldn't even have to be all that tight, just something to shade the container.

Sí.

Shielding it from the UV rays of the sun would also help them last longer.

Sí, but we will have to see how best to do that in that grow space.
Thanks.

 

[Azimuth]

Plan B.

I'm having a real challenge keeping up with the yellowing leaves (and now purpling as well) on the plants that are mid-way through flower, even with my fish fertilizer, so I'm going to try a different approach. Specifically I'm going to refresh the top dressing.

These are the plants I was going to compare the two SIP structures to (cave/air void, and the gravel bed) before one of them started having nitrogen issues which lead to a three week growth hiatus. So that experiment is mostly out the window but I'll see what I can learn about root structure when I harvest them.

Neither one was repotted from their 1L container prior to flower so the soil is likely pretty depleted. I'm also having a lightening of green in my vegetable SIP as well so they all got the same treatment. For the ones that still had a mulch layer I scraped that all off and then applied some of my IPM mix of meals, a nice thick layer of fresh worm castings and covered that with a generous layer of aged leaf mold and then misted it all in to get things started.

Organic inputs are supposed to take a week or two to show effect but I'm hoping the fresh worm castings can cut that delay. We'll see.

 

[CBDMed]

Plan B.

I'm having a real challenge keeping up with the yellowing leaves (and now purpling as well) on the plants that are mid-way through flower, even with my fish fertilizer, so I'm going to try a different approach. Specifically I'm going to refresh the top dressing.

These are the plants I was going to compare the two SIP structures to (cave/air void, and the gravel bed) before one of them started having nitrogen issues which lead to a three week growth hiatus. So that experiment is mostly out the window but I'll see what I can learn about root structure when I harvest them.

Neither one was repotted from their 1L container prior to flower so the soil is likely pretty depleted. I'm also having a lightening of green in my vegetable SIP as well so they all got the same treatment. For the ones that still had a mulch layer I scraped that all off and then applied some of my IPM mix of meals, a nice thick layer of fresh worm castings and covered that with a generous layer of aged leaf mold and then misted it all in to get things started.

Organic inputs are supposed to take a week or two to show effect but I'm hoping the fresh worm castings can cut that delay. We'll see.

I hope you get it all sorted out soon!
I will be interested to hear of the root autopsy.

 

[Danishoes21]

Plan B.

I'm having a real challenge keeping up with the yellowing leaves (and now purpling as well) on the plants that are mid-way through flower, even with my fish fertilizer, so I'm going to try a different approach. Specifically I'm going to refresh the top dressing.

These are the plants I was going to compare the two SIP structures to (cave/air void, and the gravel bed) before one of them started having nitrogen issues which lead to a three week growth hiatus. So that experiment is mostly out the window but I'll see what I can learn about root structure when I harvest them.

Neither one was repotted from their 1L container prior to flower so the soil is likely pretty depleted. I'm also having a lightening of green in my vegetable SIP as well so they all got the same treatment. For the ones that still had a mulch layer I scraped that all off and then applied some of my IPM mix of meals, a nice thick layer of fresh worm castings and covered that with a generous layer of aged leaf mold and then misted it all in to get things started.

Organic inputs are supposed to take a week or two to show effect but I'm hoping the fresh worm castings can cut that delay. We'll see.

Tuff call there Azi, any thoughts on nitrogen toxicity? Yellowing mid to lower growth, or all over?

I saw lots and lots of yellow necrotic leaves on mine after I dug them out of the soil, possibly some root damage…

I hope you can figure it out, sucks to see them suffer.

I got faith you can handle it.

 

[Azimuth]

I don't think it's toxicity since they were all growing great with good color until they got past the roughly 10 week mark and then the yellowing started down low. So, I think the mix just ran out of gas.

Normally I repot into a larger container with fresh soil before going into flower but I didn't this time because of the experiment. This is actually going to be a really good test for me as I was wanting to do an experiment with the castings anyway and this may accomplish what I want directly.

I had a similar yellowing issue with the NL5, the next plant up in the rotation heading into flower. But that one I potted up in my new 2G SIP and the yellowing went away so I'm pretty sure I just got too far behind to catch up on these others. Plus, these plants in the SIPs grow quite a bit bigger and faster than I'm accustomed to so I need to get it dialed in.

But it's all good. Another lesson for the notebook. And, if nothing else, it tells me I can't do extended veg like I'm used to with this set-up so I'll just have to figure that in to the schedule.

 

[Danishoes21]

I don't think it's toxicity since they were all growing great with good color until they got past the roughly 10 week mark and then the yellowing started down low. So, I think the mix just ran out of gas.

Normally I repot into a larger container with fresh soil before going into flower but I didn't this time because of the experiment. This is actually going to be a really good test for me as I was wanting to do an experiment with the castings anyway and this may accomplish what I want directly.

I had a similar yellowing issue with the NL5, the next plant up in the rotation heading into flower. But that one I potted up in my new 2G SIP and the yellowing went away so I'm pretty sure I just got too far behind to catch up on these others. Plus, these plants in the SIPs grow quite a bit bigger and faster than I'm accustomed to so I need to get it dialed in.

But it's all good. Another lesson for the notebook. And, if nothing else, it tells me I can't do extended veg like I'm used to with this set-up so I'll just have to figure that in to the schedule.

Lessons are good, I get what you saying your soil mix ran out of fuel. I can never figure out how much nitrogen they actually need during flower. It’s a mystery to me, I just drop the nitrogen and just focus on KP Cal/mag. Also genetics seems to really take a hold during flower and that’s when they show what they want/need some faster than others.

Always great to read your experience and notes even if is isn’t going smooth.

 

[Azimuth]

Sometimes it feels like I'm groping around in the dark with all the experiments I do.

But that's part of the fun of it for me. Always trying something new.

 

[scottreid1966]

Lessons are good, I get what you saying your soil mix ran out of fuel. I can never figure out how much nitrogen they actually need during flower. It’s a mystery to me, I just drop the nitrogen and just focus on KP Cal/mag. Also genetics seems to really take a hold during flower and that’s when they show what they want/need some faster than others.

Always great to read your experience and notes even if is isn’t going smooth.

Speaking of Nitrogen...
How can I do that organically?

I have banana, egg-shells and sea-weed in jars.
I am told that a nitrogen boost is beneficial to a plant once cropped.
I would like to do it the Azi way and want to go organic but hoping that it won't smell up my veg space. It's my man-cave after all and spend 4 hours a day here.

A 411 on the nitro would be greatly appreciated..

Cheers!

 

[Danishoes21]

Speaking of Nitrogen...
How can I do that organically?

I have banana, egg-shells and sea-weed in jars.
I am told that a nitrogen boost is beneficial to a plant once cropped.
I would like to do it the Azi way and want to go organic but hoping that it won't smell up my veg space. It's my man-cave after all and spend 4 hours a day here.

A 411 on the nitro would be greatly appreciated..

Cheers!

That’s a hard one, even when you do it anaerobic, when things start to be broken down some smell is going to happen. It’s part of the chemical reactions happening, some of it or in cases all the smell is ammonia and methane. If I understand well the aeróbic tea probably the only way to avoid the horrible smell, means you need a lot of oxygen feeding the tea for it to break down the organic matter faster, but there is always gonna be a smell. I think the worst is ammonia, it can make you nauseous.

That being said, let’s say you brew the teas out of the man cave you will have some trace of smell once you water and then it will disappear giving a day or two.

When I was using that intense looking and smelling tea, I would water direct to the soil and it would smell for a day.


Seaweed has the least amount of smell, I love seaweed as a daily use fertilizer. Not the most amount of nitrogen but does have some.
Hope this helps.