Seriously - What's the best LED setup?

[Stltoed]

Not as such, but they're are a mix of different lightwave emitters most of which are red, so if you could mash all the diodes up and mix them evenly, many blurples would be around 2700K.

That makes absolutely no sense. Are you sure you know what color temp is? The very color itself states that it CAN'T have a color temp. If you really dont know, dont make things up. Honestly man, this is very disappointing. I really don't know what else to say.

 

[PurpleGunRack]

That makes absolutely no sense. Are you sure you know what color temp is? The very color itself states that it CAN'T have a color temp. If you really dont know, dont make things up. Honestly man, this is very disappointing. I really don't know what else to say.

It makes perfect sense, you on the other hand are not making any sense and it seems like you're just trying to pick a fight.

I can't be bothered with this waste of time, enjoy blurple bliss.

Peace.

 

[Stltoed]

It makes perfect sense, you on the other hand are not making any sense and it seems like you're just trying to pick a fight.

I can't be bothered with this waste of time, enjoy blurple bliss.

Peace.

Im not trying to pick anything. The only colors that have a temperature are red, yellow, and blue. Purple does not. Please look it up.

 

[Mayne]

 

[Spitz]

So you can get from blue to red and just “skip” every other in the rainbow?

Qualitative opinion here:
I’ve had some experience with HIDs, blurples, and COBs. I started with HPS and was very satisfied. The only reason I switched to LED was fear of burning down my home. I’m putting this on me and not necessarily the lights themselves. Swapped over to blurple lights (G8 240Bloom and a PLED450). They worked very well. Not quite the density of hps but a great product nonetheless. Upgraded to a ALED XML650 (blurple/pink with white). Love this light from start to finish. Fits a 4x4 perfectly and is plenty of horsepower for the tent at 620w draw. I then moved to a 2 x (4x50w CREE3590) 400w total for a 2x4 only because my back ached from reaching into a 4x4. They worked fine. They were missing something IMO. The plants were fine, just not perfect. Every plant I grew before under my xml650 before and after were all perfect. Dunno... maybe I just got unlucky/lucky on a few runs. Hell, could have been genetics too.

I think HPS still has a lot to offer. I think light intensity of a single source (HID) and the far reds play a big part. No need to run me ppfd measurements and explain how a photon is a photon. I get it.

I’m thinking I may go out and get me a 600w hps to run in the center with my 2 Timber 4x50s on the edges. I won’t, but the thought crosses my mind often. It’s just a hobby for me and the difference between .5-1.5 g/w is completely negligible. An extra $100/yr in electricity is another completely mute point. My point (I guess) to the OP, don’t sweat it too much. I can assure you with all the research you’ve done, you won’t make a bad choice. I’m also convinced you’ll second guess whatever route you go. We all have. Good luck!

 

[Stltoed]

So you can get from blue to red and just “skip” every other in the rainbow?

Qualitative opinion here:
I’ve had some experience with HIDs, blurples, and COBs. I started with HPS and was very satisfied. The only reason I switched to LED was fear of burning down my home. I’m putting this on me and not necessarily the lights themselves. Swapped over to blurple lights (G8 240Bloom and a PLED450). They worked very well. Not quite the density of hps but a great product nonetheless. Upgraded to a ALED XML650 (blurple/pink with white). Love this light from start to finish. Fits a 4x4 perfectly and is plenty of horsepower for the tent at 620w draw. I then moved to a 2 x (4x50w CREE3590) 400w total for a 2x4 only because my back ached from reaching into a 4x4. They worked fine. They were missing something IMO. The plants were fine, just not perfect. Every plant I grew before under my xml650 before and after were all perfect. Dunno... maybe I just got unlucky/lucky on a few runs. Hell, could have been genetics too.

I think HPS still has a lot to offer. I think light intensity of a single source (HID) and the far reds play a big part. No need to run me ppfd measurements and explain how a photon is a photon. I get it.

I’m thinking I may go out and get me a 600w hps to run in the center with my 2 Timber 4x50s on the edges. I won’t, but the thought crosses my mind often. It’s just a hobby for me and the difference between .5-1.5 g/w is completely negligible. An extra $100/yr in electricity is another completely mute point. My point (I guess) to the OP, don’t sweat it too much. I can assure you with all the research you’ve done, you won’t make a bad choice. I’m also convinced you’ll second guess whatever route you go. We all have. Good luck!

I'm not sure what the red and blue comment meant...

I don't have a problem with HID. I've used it and i just dont think its for me but it's clear you can grow outstanding pot with them. That's
the bottom line

I have a light like your cobs. It's
a Spectrum King 400. A white light with the diodes arranged on a round wafer. The design is cool. It sits on a massive heatsink and has no fan. The plants just never seem to get out of second gear. I truly believe it's missing something in the spectrum.

20180416_185529.jpg

• Stltoed
• Apr 16, 2018

20180416_185535.jpg

• Stltoed
• Apr 16, 2018

20180416_185542.jpg

• Stltoed
• Apr 16, 2018

 

[Stltoed]

color temperature chart - Google Search:

For those who have questions about color temp please refer to the link above. This is a color temperature chart. You will see that there are no greens, or purples. The reason for this is simple. They will not heat a "black body" that is subject to these wavelengths. Blue, red, oranges, yellows all will actually heat a surface. The other colors will not. This is a super generic explaination. For anyone with questions I hope you will seek out the answer. It's all over the place online. Check it out

Color temperature isnt about spectrum it's about the affects of certain wave lengths on a surface.

 

[Old Salt]

Did you consider that both of you may be right?

Let's go back to basics...
The color purple is a combination of the primary colors red and blue.
The color green is a combination of the primary colors blue and yellow.
The color orange is a combination of the primary colors red and yellow.
White is a combination of the primary colors red, yellow, and blue.
Black is the complete absence of any color.

LED 'blurple' lights emit light heavily weighted with red and blue light, with little yellow. The pinkish cast is due to that little yellow in the mix.

Color temperature is the temperature in degrees Kelvin to which a black body must be heated to emit that color of light.

A single black body cannot be evenly heated to emit 'blurple' light. I think this is the point @Stltoed is trying to make.

If two or more black bodies are evenly heated to different temperatures, the combined light emitted can be 'blurple.' This appears to be the point @PurpleGunRack is making. The average temperature of the black bodies would in his opinion be towards the 2700°K mark.

Gents, I think you approached this problem from different angles, and that you both are correct.

 

[PurpleGunRack]

Just to be a bit more specific, there's no such thing as ''purple'' light, it's how a mix of colors is perceived in the human brain.

Warm white vs. cold white -> Again this is the perceived color and comes from the days of incandescent bulbs. ''Warm white'' (like 3000K) is colder temperature wise than ''cold white'' (like 6000K), pretty obvious when looking at the temperature.

You will see that there are no greens, or purples. The reason for this is simple. They will not heat a "black body" that is subject to these wavelengths

It's not the lightwaves that heat the black body, the black body emits the lightwaves when being heated to a certain temperature.
Color temperature - Wikipedia
Black-body radiation - Wikipedia

Color temperature isnt about spectrum it's about the affects of certain wave lengths on a surface.

You've mixed up some things here.

CCT is a way to describe the spectral output.

Ie. 3000K emits a mix of different wavelenght lightwaves, try looking a bit more at this chart.

QB288_388_spectrum_85ab6da3-96b2-4c3f-afc7-3fb6601c32ea_1024x1024

• PurpleGunRack
• Jan 9, 2018

A single black body cannot be evenly heated to emit 'blurple' light. I think this is the point @Stltoed is trying to make.

There's no point in saying that a single black body can't be heated to produce purple, it doesn't matter, it's like saying pigs can't fly, but like mixing red and blue to get the perception of purple, you can put the pig on a plane and get the perception of a flying pig.
It's just an argumentative statement that makes no sense whatsoever, hence my distancing to the original aggressive claimer of this.

If two or more black bodies are evenly heated to different temperatures, the combined light emitted can be 'blurple.' This appears to be the point @PurpleGunRack is making. The average temperature of the black bodies would in his opinion be towards the 2700°K mark.

If you have a pot of water which is 60°C and another pot with 60°C water, mixing them gives you 60°C water.
Mixing 60°C water and 80°C water 50/50 gives you 70°C water, the same principle applies to CCT.
So picking a blurple lamp apart and adding the CCT of each diode up and dividing by the number of diodes gives you the theoretical CCT you would have if the footprint was evenly mixed.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Doesn't CCT really only work well for light that appears close to white in color? I remember reading about it, but it's been a while and I wasn't paying a great deal of attention at the time. But... Something about two colors being... equidistant from... something or other, lol, and ending up with approximately the same CCT value because of it? (I told you I wasn't paying much attention .)

 

[Stltoed]

Did you consider that both of you may be right?

Let's go back to basics...
The color purple is a combination of the primary colors red and blue.
The color green is a combination of the primary colors blue and yellow.
The color orange is a combination of the primary colors red and yellow.
White is a combination of the primary colors red, yellow, and blue.
Black is the complete absence of any color.

LED 'blurple' lights emit light heavily weighted with red and blue light, with little yellow. The pinkish cast is due to that little yellow in the mix.

Color temperature is the temperature in degrees Kelvin to which a black body must be heated to emit that color of light.

A single black body cannot be evenly heated to emit 'blurple' light. I think this is the point @Stltoed is trying to make.

If two or more black bodies are evenly heated to different temperatures, the combined light emitted can be 'blurple.' This appears to be the point @PurpleGunRack is making. The average temperature of the black bodies would in his opinion be towards the 2700°K mark.

Gents, I think you approached this problem from different angles, and that you both are


The blue that once was in a given light is no more, same with the red. So which one would you use to measure? Mixing colors does not have a seat at this table. Barring the the three basic colors EVERY color is a mix of other colors. You can try to explain how red and blue mix to make a different color that still represents something on the chart, but the fact is your new color doesnt have anything to do with color temperature. If Mr gun rack had said a given Blurple light has 2700k, and 6000k to make up the purple it would have been a better arguement than most blurple lights are around 2700k. In fact, what he said was a blanket statement that if you ground up all the diodes and put them back together to run it they would be around 2700k. Which is pretty silly... how would that differ from just plugging it in.

Look at the chart. There is no color temp for purple. There are no other colors for this point then those on the chart. You can't give a color temp value to a blurple light. I didn't make up the rules. Im not trying to be confrontational. Im just trying to support a simple measurement that was being represented incorrectly. It has to do with the way we measure what we consider white light. There is no gray area here.

 

[Stltoed]

I completely agree that white light is an amalgamation of colored light.

Look at the chart. There is no purple. There just isn't. You can say that some colors that make up white light has a color temp. But that has nothing to do with this measurement. And nothing to do with the original errent statement. This is one of the reasons you dont see color temp measurments with purple lights. This is all I'm saying

Gun rack...There is a color purple just like there is any color. How we perceive this color is the definition of that color, No? Does this even apply to the conversation?

Gun rack.. saying a body can't be heated to purple DOES matter. This is the very basis of my arguement. Because it speaks of how purple CANT be measured with color temp. That's all.

Look. Go back and read the statements leading up to my telling Gun rack it sounded like he was making things up. If they were aggessive I apologise to all of you. Most come to forums like this to learn. It's the duty of all of us to make sure the information is as true as possible. Mr. Gun rack had a few comments that didn't seem to be based in reality. I only called him out on one of them.

 

[elephantbudz]

The other confusing part is that a 5000K CFL, a 5000K LED, and a 5000K CMH would all AFFECT YOUR PLANTS differently. but your EYES would see them as the same. It's a measurement for how a light appears to the human eye, which unfortunately doesn't tell us the other colors that strongly affect plant growth "red/infrared"

I'm not sure what the red and blue comment meant...

I don't have a problem with HID. I've used it and i just dont think its for me but it's clear you can grow outstanding pot with them. That's
the bottom line

I have a light like your cobs. It's
a Spectrum King 400. A white light with the diodes arranged on a round wafer. The design is cool. It sits on a massive heatsink and has no fan. The plants just never seem to get out of second gear. I truly believe it's missing something in the spectrum.

Yeah white LEDs miss out on infrared which is very important for plant growth and HID has lots of it. Can look into wideband LED those are up and coming and have lots of infrared.

 

[Stltoed]

The other confusing part is that a 5000K CFL, a 5000K LED, and a 5000K CMH would all AFFECT YOUR PLANTS differently. but your EYES would see them as the same. It's a measurement for how a light appears to the human eye, which unfortunately doesn't tell us the other colors that strongly affect plant growth "red/infrared"



Yeah white LEDs miss out on infrared which is very important for plant growth and HID has lots of it. Can look into wideband LED those are up and coming and have lots of infrared.

You're absolutely right. They are also a little short on UV-A and B, which are important for different reasons.

 

[Stltoed]

The other confusing part is that a 5000K CFL, a 5000K LED, and a 5000K CMH would all AFFECT YOUR PLANTS differently. but your EYES would see them as the same. It's a measurement for how a light appears to the human eye, which unfortunately doesn't tell us the other colors that strongly affect plant growth "red/infrared"



Yeah white LEDs miss out on infrared which is very important for plant growth and HID has lots of it. Can look into wideband LED those are up and coming and have lots of infrared.

Curious Elephant... what lights do you use? Are they the last light you'll ever? If not what will you replace them with?

Maybe we can get back on track regarding the question "Seriously, what's the best LED set up"

 

[elephantbudz]

ah right now i have an electric sky , really like it, fits my tent perfectly, high quality, don't see myself replacing it, nice spectrum. they are pretty new company but i'm happy with it so far.

 

[Stltoed]

ah right now i have an electric sky , really like it, fits my tent perfectly, high quality, don't see myself replacing it, nice spectrum. they are pretty new company but i'm happy with it so far.

Nice! I've never heard of them, but will look into them. It sucks when you're disappointed with your lights. Makes me wonder how many out there just don't know any better. I really like my lights. They work very well, but they were ridiculously expensive so I dont ever recommend them.

 

[PurpleGunRack]

Look at the chart. There is no purple.

I see the chart bright and clear, and now I'm saying stop looking at the chart it's confusing you

Gun rack...There is a color purple just like there is any color. How we perceive this color is the definition of that color, No? Does this even apply to the conversation?

No, there are no ''purple'' lightwaves unless you mean violet/ultraviolet.
How the human brain perceives the light has nothing to with the actual wavelenghts emitted.
Look at any blurple light, there are no purple diodes, only red and blue mixed with some yellow/green/white/FR diodes.
Try to look for a purple diode, you'll find only UV diodes.

Gun rack.. saying a body can't be heated to purple DOES matter. This is the very basis of my arguement. Because it speaks of how purple CANT be measured with color temp. That's all.

Again, purple light only exists in your head unless you mean ultraviolet in which case the black body can be heated to emit that.

I only called him out on one of them.

Well, please get it out in the open, I don't mind being wrong, I (and others) might learn something.

I try to only relay information based on science and multiple observations by unbiased growers, or else I clearly state that it's not based on this.
However, I've probably picked up some psuedo science from the many LED salesmen out there, and I'm trying to wipe that from memory
I was once convinced that the blurples were at least on par with HID, but I now know they're not and they're too expensive up front to be worthwhile buying, and no more efficient than HID and therefor not worthwhile in the long run compared to quality LED. And I haven't even started talking about blurples' burned out diodes, output loss and noisy fans.

It's too easy to be seduced by sales tricks and psuedo science, and most LED companies are greedy bastards that don't care about your herb, but I do, and I don't have anything for sale (yet )

The other confusing part is that a 5000K CFL, a 5000K LED, and a 5000K CMH would all AFFECT YOUR PLANTS differently. but your EYES would see them as the same. It's a measurement for how a light appears to the human eye, which unfortunately doesn't tell us the other colors that strongly affect plant growth "red/infrared"

No, 5000K is 5000K regardless of source.

K (Degrees Kelvin) describes the different nanometer lightwaves emitted and tells us exactly what wavelenghts we get.

Lumen is the unit used to measure light intensity relative to the human eye.

Yeah white LEDs miss out on infrared which is very important for plant growth and HID has lots of it. Can look into wideband LED those are up and coming and have lots of infrared.

Far Red is NOT very important for plant growth, it's good to add a little at the right times but not at all necessary.
Far Red, Infra Red and UV, being outside the PAR range, produce almost no photosynthesis, but act as signals to the photosystems.

Just looked up the ''wideband'' LED, it looks like a made up marketing thing and they don't actually tell you what iwideband is (anybody can mix diodes on a board, that's not special), and Electric Sky don't tell what components they use, which usually means it's not top quality. LED companies are not shy to flaunt brand names, but maybe they're just missing out on a bigger selling point than their made up wideband thing...
For the price of the 300 model you can get, sooooo much more light

Yes, white light LEDs have no Far Red, but HPS have a lot more than you need and all the time, and the effect we want from Far Red can be acheived by having a few Far Red diodes (4-6 per m2) on from one hour before lights out to 15 minutes after lights out.

White LEDs are not perfect, but the sheer intensity and efficiency outweighs other grow lights, even without the addition of supplemental spectrums, with supplemental lighting and controllers you have endless possibilities to tweak the spectral output - now we just need more scientific studies on cannabis and light so we're not just blindly turning dials and hoping for the best

 

[Bonsaiweed]

ah right now i have an electric sky , really like it, fits my tent perfectly, high quality, don't see myself replacing it, nice spectrum. they are pretty new company but i'm happy with it so far.

Yeah the quantums are good, dont have any light direction so light goes everywhere. Nice to get some focus. Electric Sky has my eye everyone seems to love them and plants look real good under those with the focused light. DIY cobs look fine too but again kinda similar to the quantums.

I'm sorry, but I believe you are full of double talk. Since you have joined, all you have talked about is lighting.

I'm not big on censorship, but I also don't like people that claim two things.

I know this forum is quite serious about members pushing a secret agenda. I understand their reasoning, and I believe you are an example

Do you have an Electric Sky or not?

 

[Stltoed]

I see the chart bright and clear, and now I'm saying stop looking at the chart it's confusing you




No, there are no ''purple'' lightwaves unless you mean violet/ultraviolet.
How the human brain perceives the light has nothing to with the actual wavelenghts emitted.
Look at any blurple light, there are no purple diodes, only red and blue mixed with some yellow/green/white/FR diodes.
Try to look for a purple diode, you'll find only UV diodes.




Again, purple light only exists in your head unless you mean ultraviolet in which case the black body can be heated to emit that.




Well, please get it out in the open, I don't mind being wrong, I (and others) might learn something.

I try to only relay information based on science and multiple observations by unbiased growers, or else I clearly state that it's not based on this.
However, I've probably picked up some psuedo science from the many LED salesmen out there, and I'm trying to wipe that from memory
I was once convinced that the blurples were at least on par with HID, but I now know they're not and they're too expensive up front to be worthwhile buying, and no more efficient than HID and therefor not worthwhile in the long run compared to quality LED. And I haven't even started talking about blurples' burned out diodes, output loss and noisy fans.

It's too easy to be seduced by sales tricks and psuedo science, and most LED companies are greedy bastards that don't care about your herb, but I do, and I don't have anything for sale (yet )



No, 5000K is 5000K regardless of source.

K (Degrees Kelvin) describes the different nanometer lightwaves emitted and tells us exactly what wavelenghts we get.

Lumen is the unit used to measure light intensity relative to the human eye.




Far Red is NOT very important for plant growth, it's good to add a little at the right times but not at all necessary.
Far Red, Infra Red and UV, being outside the PAR range, produces almost no photosynthesis, but acts as signals to the photosystems.

Just looked up the ''wideband'' LED, it looks like a made up marketing thing and they don't actually tell you what iwideband is (anybody can mix diodes on a board, that's not special), and Electric Sky don't tell what components they use, which usually means it's not top quality. LED companies are not shy to flaunt brand names, but maybe they're just missing out on a bigger selling point than their made up wideband thing...
For the price of the 300 model you can get, sooooo much more light

Yes, white light LEDs have no Far Red, but HPS have a lot more than you need and all the time, and the effect we want from Far Red can be acheived by having a few Far Red diodes (4-6 per m2) on from one hour before lights out to 15 minutes after lights out.

White LEDs are not perfect, but the sheer intensity and efficiency outweighs other grow lights, even without the addition of supplemental spectrums, with supplemental lighting and controllers you have endless possibilities to tweak the spectral output - now we just need more scientific studies on cannabis and light so we're not just blindly turning dials and hoping for the best

Do you just like hearing yourself talk? Most of your theories on light are ridiculous.

Saying purple doesn't exist because there isn't a purple diode out there is ridiculous. Of course it's made from blue and red. This whole thing came about when you gave a colored light a color temp. of which there isn't one. That was my entire case.

I've owned a few colored lights and have never seen a burnt out diodes, or output loss, and i could give a shit about fan noise. 1 of my lights doesn't have a fan.

The lumen scale isnt linear so it's not a good for measuring LEDs

What do you use? How do you grow? What do you usually yield per plant? Got any pictures? I'm very curious how all this sage advice has benefited you. You're so quick to shred others equipment with all the knowledge you keep telling us about. Show us