Best LED if money was no issue
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rastamamma
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for veg - 110w cfl
for bloom - Apollo 10, 340 real watts from wall
for bloom - Apollo 10, 340 real watts from wall
So my answer is still "white COBs". They're currently the best tech available (reasonable cost aside = we won't talk about exotic tech like plasma, etc), and two of our sponsors (vetted and watched by the 420 staff) sell panels based on them.
fanleaf
Well-Known Member
Some weird info hereplant are good to look at but if going to use as comparison like that then watts being used is just as if not more needed.. Your not going to keep up in 20+days using half or quarter watts from wall...
Not sure I follow any of that but ok.
fanleaf
Well-Known Member
We get it Grizz
You grow with hps and therefore it's the best and as you said LED can't grow as good as hps with less power. Plenty of growers here have been growing for 20+ years and have switched to LED and love it compared to their hps for many reasons. After 20+ years growing I don't think you can consider them as "learning to grow".
Your on the losing end of an argument you are plainly trying to start here because nobody in this post was saying anythings better than your hps.
To be fair, the latest double-ended hps is a clear winner on almost every front. It's highly efficient with a good spectrum.
Only white COBs can do better, for two reasons. One is dispersion and reflection - hps is concentrated into one small bar of light, while COBs can be strung across the sky. And all the COB light goes down, unlike hps which has to be captured and reflected for good efficiency.
And secondly, there's no replacement cost or age loss with COBs.
And, of course, COBs put out more PAR per watt.
Only white COBs can do better, for two reasons. One is dispersion and reflection - hps is concentrated into one small bar of light, while COBs can be strung across the sky. And all the COB light goes down, unlike hps which has to be captured and reflected for good efficiency.
And secondly, there's no replacement cost or age loss with COBs.
And, of course, COBs put out more PAR per watt.
fanleaf
Well-Known Member
Most growers have a "killowatt" meter. It's a $10 meter you can grab from any major hardware store.
As far as LED's wattage ratings and what they really use here's how it works.
If your LED uses say 3 watt LED's and has 100 of them in the light that would be marketed as a 300W LED because it has the potential to use 300 watts.... LED 3w x 100 pcs=300W.
Now, a single 3w led can be driven at 3w but not for the length of time we drive them for and keep heat from damaging them so LED makers don't drive them full throttle at 3w each.
Instead they drive them around 60% of their rating for longevity and heat reduction.
So now we have 100 pcs of 3w led's so 3W at 60% is 1.8 watts each. So 1.8 watts X 100 LED's and that's 180 true watts. Most 300w Led's use 180-190W Most 450w lights use 280-285, most 600 w lights use 390-400 and most 900w lights use about 525w.
Suggestions on choosing the best LED light.....
1. The company has been in business at least 2-3 years minimum. In the LED industry, I would estimate that at least 70% of these companies fail before the 2 year mark. Also, if the company has been around for over 3 years, make sure they are also introducing new technology and models every so often. Last thing you want to do is buy a LED grow light that is 4 years old as its already outdated and less efficient that current models.
2. Make sure the company provides a good warranty, and has a history of upholding the warranty terms. Some companies I have seen over the years constantly change, modify and update their warranty which leads to unhappy customers, issues with compliance, and customer service issues. If a company doesn't honor their warranty, chances are someone voiced their opinion online about it, so reasearch is you
3. Google the companies name and add the word "issues, scams, problems, or troubleshooting" after the company name and see what pops up. Many times these 4 keywords will pull up a host of issues if they exist.
4. Find out if the company actually makes their own lights, or what role they have in the design. I would estimate that about 85% of the LED grow lights on the market are NOT made by the companies selling them. Many times you have LED grow lights made in China, purchased at wholesale prices by a "company" in the USA, and then a name brand is added to the product, a few LED diode colors are change to make a "proprietary spectrum" and then it is resold and rebranded at about 4-5x markup. If the company doesn't make the lights themself, or doesn't even design them, and just buys premade lights...the chances are pretty great that you are getting ripped off, and that the company will not last if the products fail.
5. Know the PPFD of the LED light, and request a 4'x4' grid showing PPFD measurements at least every square foot on the chart. This is the ONLY ACCURATE way to measure plant lighting intensity. You can guess with watts per square foot, but this is not accurate and in NO WAY will translate to how a plant uses light. PPFD is the way that major agriculture and horticulture companies, as well as scientists and plant researchers measure light. If a company does not have a 4'x4' grid (at different heights) showing PPFD, then request they provide it. Without this valuable piece of data, your guess is about as accurate as their "recommended coverage" which 9 times out of 10 I have found is misleading and overestimated. For a 12/12 schedule (flowering) you want to see at least 500 micromoles/m2/s-1 for a PAR measurement, ACROSS THE ENTIRE 4'x4' AREA minimum, NOT JUST THE CENTER. Most LED enthusiasts and knowledgable lighting guru's go for 800 micromoles/m2/s-1 across the ENTIRE CANOPY and if you are using CO2 1100 micromoles/m2/s-1 to 1500 micromoles is ideal and the max.
6. Choose a light that is full spectrum. Plants use ALL wavelengths of light between 400nm and 700nm, INCLUDING GREEN. Also your LED grow light should have 720-740nm (far red) leds, commonly mislabeled as IR or Infrared.
7. Consider why you want LED in the first place. LED typically is a investment and not the cheapest route for plant lighting. If you are looking for an economy plant light, stick with HPS or CMH as it will usually provide much better coverage and yield for the costs. LED typically pays for itself over time, as you don't have to replace bulbs every year and typically can reduce power by around 20% to get similar yields as HPS. This savings does take time, and the inital cost is very high with LED. So consider why you want to go LED, and if it makes financial sense.
8. Choose the right LED setup... LED is like a bunch of mini spotlights, as the light is very directional and doesn't spread very far due to the beam angles of the LED chips. So consider your growing style when buying led lights. If you grow very large, 4' bushes indoors then the best route to go is 1 single very powerful wattage LED above each plant, and possibly side lighting LED's to increase intracanopy penetration. However if you grow in a scrog fashion, or sea of green, instead of getting 1 extremely powerful light, its better to get a handful of lower wattage LED lights. The reason is penetration, and coverage area. A high wattage LED will have more "throw" of the beam, meaning the intensity will carry further than a lower wattage light, however being its only a small surface area of "mini spotlights" the light will not cover a very large area as most LED's (other than COB's) only may spread about 1 1/2x as large as the light dimensions themself. So for a single large plant, a powerful, high wattage panel is the best choice. For grows like scrogs, small plants or sea of green growing, where penetration is not important, but coverage area is, then the best choice is a bunch of lower wattage LED lights which will have less "throw" of the beam, but will cover a much greater surface area with a much more even spread of light. Usually when consulting growers who ask about what light is best, this is one of the first questions I ask, is what is your grow style, how large do you grow your plants, do you train them with scrog/topping/LST, and is it just a few huge plants or a bunch of tiny plants. By answering this question it usually allows for me to give a better consultation on what light to choose. Again, as I mentioned before, by having a PPFD chart over a 4'x4' grid, this tells exactly what coverage area you can expect, as well as what your penetration will be like.
9. Passive vs Active cooling. Most current LED grow lights feature Active cooling, involving fans that force air past the heatsinks to cool the LED's down. There are very few passive cooling LED's on the market today but they are starting to make their way into the market. Even though this is not a major considerations, it could be, especially for commercial and industrial cultivation centers, as the more moving parts on a LED light, the more chance for a fan failing, causing the light to overheat and have problems. So for most home growers, this is not a major concern as you may only have a few lights, but if you are running a 10,000sq ft warehouse or so, then its a very valid concern. Now a drawback to home growers with passive cooling, is that lights with passive cooling require much larger heatsinks to keep the LEDs at an optimal running temp. This limits the space and many times veritcal height that a home grower can work with. Again this is not a huge concern, but something worth mentioning.
10. Don't EVER believe a LED companies claims, stats, data or specifications without doing your own research. I have come across many many LED company websites that are loaded with false claims, misinformation, blatent lies, and all kinds of shenanigans, that make gullible and uneducated growers think they are buying the golden cow, but instead getting sold some beans (and not magic ones either). Like I mentioned before, most of these LED companies don't even make their lights, and had little to no involvement in the design process, so the likelyhood of the information on their page being wrong is very high. Even most of the sponsors here at 420 magazine that sell LED lights have information that is incorrect and false on their websites, I won't mention names, but I can bet that I could find at least 1 or 2 pieces of information that is misleading on every one of their websites besides maybe a handful. Even if the company has a good reputation, and longevity in the industry, this does not mean they know plant lighting or can verify their claims. Do your own research, ask growers with lighting experience, and take time to at least understand the basics of plant lighting. If you visit my current grow journal, on page 1 or 2 in the beginning of it, I did a nice long writeup to teach people the basics of plant lighting. I suggest you all read it.
11. Don't be cheap.... LED's are expensive and the difference between a premium product vs a cheap economy LED are tremendous. I know most economy LED users will have a problem with this, but unless you have used a premium LED product and seen the difference.. you wouldn't understand. Premium LED's last much longer (lumen maintenance), have much higher efficiency (more light per watt), better color rendering without shift but they do cost much more than economy LED's. Stick with brands Cree, Osram or Bridgelux vero, or Citiled for LED chips that have reputation for quality. Typically LEDs using Bridgelux (3w or 5w), epistar, epiled or other chips will burn out faster, have less efficiency, but also are much cheaper. Either option will work, but the premium chips offer much longer life, better efficiency and for the purpose of LED lighting "efficient" they fit the mold the best.
12. If you commonly spray your plants, or have issues with moisture make sure your LED light is IP65 and rated for water resistance, dust resistance or similar ratings to your needs. Most of these LED grow lights are not water friendly (which honestly doesn't make sense due to the industry they are used in) and most wouldn't last if they got sprayed accidently or accumulated moisture. Its actually pretty rare to find a IP65 LED grow light in the current market, but if you spray a lot of have moisture issues, you may want to consider this.
Well that is about all I can think of currently, probably more to consider but this is the basics for choosing a good panel. Best of luck and hope this helps... Seriously though, read the 1st 2 pages of my current grow journal about plant lighting and you will gain knowledge from it. ..... cheers all.
1. The company has been in business at least 2-3 years minimum. In the LED industry, I would estimate that at least 70% of these companies fail before the 2 year mark. Also, if the company has been around for over 3 years, make sure they are also introducing new technology and models every so often. Last thing you want to do is buy a LED grow light that is 4 years old as its already outdated and less efficient that current models.
2. Make sure the company provides a good warranty, and has a history of upholding the warranty terms. Some companies I have seen over the years constantly change, modify and update their warranty which leads to unhappy customers, issues with compliance, and customer service issues. If a company doesn't honor their warranty, chances are someone voiced their opinion online about it, so reasearch is you
3. Google the companies name and add the word "issues, scams, problems, or troubleshooting" after the company name and see what pops up. Many times these 4 keywords will pull up a host of issues if they exist.
4. Find out if the company actually makes their own lights, or what role they have in the design. I would estimate that about 85% of the LED grow lights on the market are NOT made by the companies selling them. Many times you have LED grow lights made in China, purchased at wholesale prices by a "company" in the USA, and then a name brand is added to the product, a few LED diode colors are change to make a "proprietary spectrum" and then it is resold and rebranded at about 4-5x markup. If the company doesn't make the lights themself, or doesn't even design them, and just buys premade lights...the chances are pretty great that you are getting ripped off, and that the company will not last if the products fail.
5. Know the PPFD of the LED light, and request a 4'x4' grid showing PPFD measurements at least every square foot on the chart. This is the ONLY ACCURATE way to measure plant lighting intensity. You can guess with watts per square foot, but this is not accurate and in NO WAY will translate to how a plant uses light. PPFD is the way that major agriculture and horticulture companies, as well as scientists and plant researchers measure light. If a company does not have a 4'x4' grid (at different heights) showing PPFD, then request they provide it. Without this valuable piece of data, your guess is about as accurate as their "recommended coverage" which 9 times out of 10 I have found is misleading and overestimated. For a 12/12 schedule (flowering) you want to see at least 500 micromoles/m2/s-1 for a PAR measurement, ACROSS THE ENTIRE 4'x4' AREA minimum, NOT JUST THE CENTER. Most LED enthusiasts and knowledgable lighting guru's go for 800 micromoles/m2/s-1 across the ENTIRE CANOPY and if you are using CO2 1100 micromoles/m2/s-1 to 1500 micromoles is ideal and the max.
6. Choose a light that is full spectrum. Plants use ALL wavelengths of light between 400nm and 700nm, INCLUDING GREEN. Also your LED grow light should have 720-740nm (far red) leds, commonly mislabeled as IR or Infrared.
7. Consider why you want LED in the first place. LED typically is a investment and not the cheapest route for plant lighting. If you are looking for an economy plant light, stick with HPS or CMH as it will usually provide much better coverage and yield for the costs. LED typically pays for itself over time, as you don't have to replace bulbs every year and typically can reduce power by around 20% to get similar yields as HPS. This savings does take time, and the inital cost is very high with LED. So consider why you want to go LED, and if it makes financial sense.
8. Choose the right LED setup... LED is like a bunch of mini spotlights, as the light is very directional and doesn't spread very far due to the beam angles of the LED chips. So consider your growing style when buying led lights. If you grow very large, 4' bushes indoors then the best route to go is 1 single very powerful wattage LED above each plant, and possibly side lighting LED's to increase intracanopy penetration. However if you grow in a scrog fashion, or sea of green, instead of getting 1 extremely powerful light, its better to get a handful of lower wattage LED lights. The reason is penetration, and coverage area. A high wattage LED will have more "throw" of the beam, meaning the intensity will carry further than a lower wattage light, however being its only a small surface area of "mini spotlights" the light will not cover a very large area as most LED's (other than COB's) only may spread about 1 1/2x as large as the light dimensions themself. So for a single large plant, a powerful, high wattage panel is the best choice. For grows like scrogs, small plants or sea of green growing, where penetration is not important, but coverage area is, then the best choice is a bunch of lower wattage LED lights which will have less "throw" of the beam, but will cover a much greater surface area with a much more even spread of light. Usually when consulting growers who ask about what light is best, this is one of the first questions I ask, is what is your grow style, how large do you grow your plants, do you train them with scrog/topping/LST, and is it just a few huge plants or a bunch of tiny plants. By answering this question it usually allows for me to give a better consultation on what light to choose. Again, as I mentioned before, by having a PPFD chart over a 4'x4' grid, this tells exactly what coverage area you can expect, as well as what your penetration will be like.
9. Passive vs Active cooling. Most current LED grow lights feature Active cooling, involving fans that force air past the heatsinks to cool the LED's down. There are very few passive cooling LED's on the market today but they are starting to make their way into the market. Even though this is not a major considerations, it could be, especially for commercial and industrial cultivation centers, as the more moving parts on a LED light, the more chance for a fan failing, causing the light to overheat and have problems. So for most home growers, this is not a major concern as you may only have a few lights, but if you are running a 10,000sq ft warehouse or so, then its a very valid concern. Now a drawback to home growers with passive cooling, is that lights with passive cooling require much larger heatsinks to keep the LEDs at an optimal running temp. This limits the space and many times veritcal height that a home grower can work with. Again this is not a huge concern, but something worth mentioning.
10. Don't EVER believe a LED companies claims, stats, data or specifications without doing your own research. I have come across many many LED company websites that are loaded with false claims, misinformation, blatent lies, and all kinds of shenanigans, that make gullible and uneducated growers think they are buying the golden cow, but instead getting sold some beans (and not magic ones either). Like I mentioned before, most of these LED companies don't even make their lights, and had little to no involvement in the design process, so the likelyhood of the information on their page being wrong is very high. Even most of the sponsors here at 420 magazine that sell LED lights have information that is incorrect and false on their websites, I won't mention names, but I can bet that I could find at least 1 or 2 pieces of information that is misleading on every one of their websites besides maybe a handful. Even if the company has a good reputation, and longevity in the industry, this does not mean they know plant lighting or can verify their claims. Do your own research, ask growers with lighting experience, and take time to at least understand the basics of plant lighting. If you visit my current grow journal, on page 1 or 2 in the beginning of it, I did a nice long writeup to teach people the basics of plant lighting. I suggest you all read it.
11. Don't be cheap.... LED's are expensive and the difference between a premium product vs a cheap economy LED are tremendous. I know most economy LED users will have a problem with this, but unless you have used a premium LED product and seen the difference.. you wouldn't understand. Premium LED's last much longer (lumen maintenance), have much higher efficiency (more light per watt), better color rendering without shift but they do cost much more than economy LED's. Stick with brands Cree, Osram or Bridgelux vero, or Citiled for LED chips that have reputation for quality. Typically LEDs using Bridgelux (3w or 5w), epistar, epiled or other chips will burn out faster, have less efficiency, but also are much cheaper. Either option will work, but the premium chips offer much longer life, better efficiency and for the purpose of LED lighting "efficient" they fit the mold the best.
12. If you commonly spray your plants, or have issues with moisture make sure your LED light is IP65 and rated for water resistance, dust resistance or similar ratings to your needs. Most of these LED grow lights are not water friendly (which honestly doesn't make sense due to the industry they are used in) and most wouldn't last if they got sprayed accidently or accumulated moisture. Its actually pretty rare to find a IP65 LED grow light in the current market, but if you spray a lot of have moisture issues, you may want to consider this.
Well that is about all I can think of currently, probably more to consider but this is the basics for choosing a good panel. Best of luck and hope this helps... Seriously though, read the 1st 2 pages of my current grow journal about plant lighting and you will gain knowledge from it. ..... cheers all.
- Thread starter
- #50
rastamamma
New Member
Thank you Icemud! You rock 
Dude nailed it
TimberGrowLights
Well-Known Member
Hi @rastamamma,
Thank you for the invite to the thread - I would love to comment.
My name is Dan and I'm from Timber Grow Lights. We make CXB3590 COB LED Grow light "kits". These are designed to be mounted using a simple aluminum frame and are designed to be able to be spaced in a custom manner across a growers canopy in order to maximize even coverage over the entire growing area, as well as achieving PAR measurements at or exceeding that required for flowering cannabis (700-100 mmols) in an even manner across the entire coverage area.
Our kits utilize top of the line components - Cree CXB3590 top BIN COB LEDs, Meanwell HLG series drivers and Cooliance Heat Sinks. These components are wired together safely and have waterproof sealed connections and utilize automotive grade heat shrink.
All of our kits come with a pre-wired fused 10A inlet which provides safe usage and a level of protection form surges in the electricity.
There is no soldering, drilling, threading nor assembly required. The kit comes with mounting hardware to attach to an aluminum angle frame.
All of our kits also include free shipping in the US and customizations are welcome - we want to make sure you get the best lighting and the best set up for your individual growing needs.
Feel free to PM me, post a thread, or contact us at sales@timbergrowlights.com.
Have a good weekend,
Dan
Thank you for the invite to the thread - I would love to comment.
My name is Dan and I'm from Timber Grow Lights. We make CXB3590 COB LED Grow light "kits". These are designed to be mounted using a simple aluminum frame and are designed to be able to be spaced in a custom manner across a growers canopy in order to maximize even coverage over the entire growing area, as well as achieving PAR measurements at or exceeding that required for flowering cannabis (700-100 mmols) in an even manner across the entire coverage area.
Our kits utilize top of the line components - Cree CXB3590 top BIN COB LEDs, Meanwell HLG series drivers and Cooliance Heat Sinks. These components are wired together safely and have waterproof sealed connections and utilize automotive grade heat shrink.
All of our kits come with a pre-wired fused 10A inlet which provides safe usage and a level of protection form surges in the electricity.
There is no soldering, drilling, threading nor assembly required. The kit comes with mounting hardware to attach to an aluminum angle frame.
All of our kits also include free shipping in the US and customizations are welcome - we want to make sure you get the best lighting and the best set up for your individual growing needs.
Feel free to PM me, post a thread, or contact us at sales@timbergrowlights.com.
Have a good weekend,
Dan
- Thread starter
- #53
rastamamma
New Member
Dan,
I have been drooling over your lights on your homepage....the seem pretty amazing!!!
//RM
I have been drooling over your lights on your homepage....the seem pretty amazing!!!
//RM
CatnipTC
Well-Known Member
Dan
checked out the sight but didnt see any pics of the lights installed in the Rail you were talking about. Can you point me to what the final DIY product looks like when completed? I'm looking at the largest kit
checked out the sight but didnt see any pics of the lights installed in the Rail you were talking about. Can you point me to what the final DIY product looks like when completed? I'm looking at the largest kit
Seriously, those light kits look off the hook for me. They look perfect for a scrog setup
TimberGrowLights
Well-Known Member
Hello CatnipTC,
Thank you for your post. The home page shows a version of the frame with a COB kit installed. We can create multiple frames for you, as well as a custom configured set up to suit your individual growing area.
Please shoot me an email at dan@timbergrowlights.com and I'd be happy to share some additional frame mounting options, photos and also help you with your particular product needs.
We have the 300W (6) COB kit in stock in both the 3500k and 4000k color temperatures and can get you up and running fast!
Have a great evening.
Regards,
Dan
TimberGrowLights
Well-Known Member
Hi cpla,
Yes, these are a very good candidate for SCROG growing as you can get the COBs nice and close to your canopy and also maintain even PAR coverage at 16-24" from the top of your plants. Running these COBs at 50W each makes them ideal for placement at a 12" center, spread equidistant over your coverage area - generating PPF measurements of 580-600, which equates to a PPFD measurement of roughly 1000-1100 mmol/sm2 in a 6 sq ft growing area, for instance.
The PAR readings are very consistent when placed at the 12" centerpoint spacing at 50W - this is with Angelina Reflectors (90 degree).
If you have any additional questions, or would like clarification on any of these terms or concepts, please feel free to send me a PM, post a response or email at dan@timbergrowlights.com.
Best Regards,
Dan
Yes, these are a very good candidate for SCROG growing as you can get the COBs nice and close to your canopy and also maintain even PAR coverage at 16-24" from the top of your plants. Running these COBs at 50W each makes them ideal for placement at a 12" center, spread equidistant over your coverage area - generating PPF measurements of 580-600, which equates to a PPFD measurement of roughly 1000-1100 mmol/sm2 in a 6 sq ft growing area, for instance.
The PAR readings are very consistent when placed at the 12" centerpoint spacing at 50W - this is with Angelina Reflectors (90 degree).
If you have any additional questions, or would like clarification on any of these terms or concepts, please feel free to send me a PM, post a response or email at dan@timbergrowlights.com.
Best Regards,
Dan
Thanx but given that I grow inside I would like to have something that replaces the sun
Amare tech
Also, that guy from Timber Grow lights has totally convinced me to buy his lights next time. Really great responses and explanations. I really like them for a scrog setup and that's all I grow in now. This is what I mean by sponsors having nothing to fear. Their products are top shelf for the most part.
