Leaves twisting - Roots or environmental?

[Greenvein]

Sup 420fam! Wondering if someone could assist me with a slight dilemma or just to confirm I'm choosing the wright path.

Growing in Coco/perlite mix. 1 gal fabric pots fully synthetic even though I recently tried enouculating to reduce any stress at the roots.

Feed in has always been 6.3/6.4ph and around 600 to 700 ppm twice a day or at least once a day. Pots are never dry to the point I don't even know if they are drinking much.

Run off has always been +200 to 400ppm from input & pH is probably at 4ph now.

Now as the rumour goes in Coco you can't over water and run off ph doesn't matter but my last grow hermied and I'm starting to see similar signs (pH fluctuations?) Of leaf twisting. Could just be paranoid? Lol.

I'm thinking I could fertigate more often to constantly supply fresh food for the plants to stop them noticing any ph swing...

Or on the other hand I'm thinking I could lower my feeds to every other day to get more oxygen to the roots if their not drinking much..

They don't really look over watered up top they look like they couldn't be happier praying to the gods the whole time but them twisting leaves got me questioning. Also not sure if them praying so hard is stress itself overworking.

Lastly my environment has always been around 25c 60rh but mid flower I have just dropped my Rh to 50% so temps went up to 28c but these are room temps leaf temps will be a little lower. lights are max 800ppfd at the tallest. Roughly 450w on the led consumption.

Cheers fellas any help appreciated @Wastei @NickHardy @Azimuth @West Hippie @Regrowth not sure whom else might have some ideas? I took these pics today and I think they may be worse since changing environment and not feeding so probably feed now and try more often

Happy holidays

 

[Greenvein]

 

[NickHardy]

Dude whatsup!

They look pretty awesome to me!

Now as the rumour goes in Coco you can't over water and run off ph doesn't matter but my last grow hermied and I'm starting to see similar signs (pH fluctuations?) Of leaf twisting. Could just be paranoid? Lol.

Ph them in at 5.5 - 6.0

Ignore the run off readings - 4.0 I used to get then I stopped bothering testing. BUT I’m not great - @Wastei knows some stuff about what your run off Ph can tell you in coco.

@Bill284 might have an opinion - say coco and perlite he’s your guy too.

You got a bit of canoeing. But also nice purple veins. And deep greens. Temp not to high, room to too dry or cold?

I’m going paranoid.

I hermied a tent and been similarly paronoid since.

Nick

 

[Azimuth]

Growing in Coco/perlite mix. 1 gal fabric pots fully synthetic even though I recently tried enouculating to reduce any stress at the roots.

Feed in has always been 6.3/6.4ph and around 600 to 700 ppm twice a day or at least once a day. Pots are never dry to the point I don't even know if they are drinking much.

Pretty sure @Bill284 is going to tell you pH to 5.8 and maybe also something about cal/Mag.

I don't grow in coco so can't be of much help.

Nickkie's got your back though...

 

[Bill284]

Dude whatsup!

They look pretty awesome to me!



Ph them in at 5.5 - 6.0

Ignore the run off readings - 4.0 I used to get then I stopped bothering testing. BUT I’m not great - @Wastei knows some stuff about what your run off Ph can tell you in coco.

@Bill284 might have an opinion - say coco and perlite he’s your guy too.

You got a bit of canoeing. But also nice purple veins. And deep greens. Temp not to high, room to too dry or cold?

I’m going paranoid.

I hermied a tent and been similarly paronoid since.

Nick

Hermies on a stable strain are light related IMO.
Coco has a couple very simple parameters to work within.
But mixing nutrients is important.
First every time.
Calmag in the plain water.
Nutrients according to schedule then set ph to 5.8 exactly.
Feed every day, never any plain water.
Unless your looking to screw up a perfectly good girl, beautiful in fact , stop measuring run off.
Only thing I see is a touch high in nitrogen.
But a perfect looking girl.
Oh don't remove any more leaves either.
Merry Christmas my friend.


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[NickHardy]

Hermies on a stable strain are light related IMO.
Coco has a couple very simple parameters to work within.
But mixing nutrients is important.
First every time.
Calmag in the plain water.
Nutrients according to schedule then set ph to 5.8 exactly.
Feed every day, never any plain water.
Unless your looking to screw up a perfectly good girl, beautiful in fact , stop measuring run off.
Only thing I see is a touch high in nitrogen.
But a perfect looking girl.
Oh don't remove any more leaves either.
Merry Christmas my friend.


Stay safe
Bill284

That’s how I learnt from you.

Every bit.

I gave a broader range on the Ph because really not worth talking about here - just trying to be fancy Nick and might well be wrong.

But you follow exactly what Bill says you’ll get fantastic high yield plants

Oh and environment. Temp and Rh

That’s it.

 

[Bill284]

That’s how I learnt from you.

Every bit.

I gave a broader range on the Ph because really not worth talking about here - just trying to be fancy Nick and might well be wrong.

But you follow exactly what Bill says you’ll get fantastic high yield plants

Oh and environment. Temp and Rh

That’s it.

50 rh and 28c he is dialed in and ready for lift off.
Great for flower.
Frost on that girl is outstanding.
Environment is working perfectly.
Hang some twinkle lights and your ready for Christmas.


Stay safe
Bill284

 

[Greenvein]

Cheers fellas much appreciated.. it probably is mostly paranoia after the last grow they do look great and very healthy I'm just in there like did you move

I was thinking to drop pH to 6.0 but nutrient line say 6.2 in flower but I'll try 5.8 as I really am set on pH.

Yeah Mr @Bill284 that's how my mix is except Im only feeding a quarter what the bottle says so my 40L bin but I'll calculate my nutes to a 10L bin to keep the ratio the same.. I'll be back over to purple pics soon as she's frosting up too! And I'll leave the eaves alone I swear

Much love brothers

 

[Wastei]

Sup 420fam! Wondering if someone could assist me with a slight dilemma or just to confirm I'm choosing the wright path.

Growing in Coco/perlite mix. 1 gal fabric pots fully synthetic even though I recently tried enouculating to reduce any stress at the roots.

Feed in has always been 6.3/6.4ph and around 600 to 700 ppm twice a day or at least once a day. Pots are never dry to the point I don't even know if they are drinking much.

Run off has always been +200 to 400ppm from input & pH is probably at 4ph now.

Now as the rumour goes in Coco you can't over water and run off ph doesn't matter but my last grow hermied and I'm starting to see similar signs (pH fluctuations?) Of leaf twisting. Could just be paranoid? Lol.

I'm thinking I could fertigate more often to constantly supply fresh food for the plants to stop them noticing any ph swing...

Or on the other hand I'm thinking I could lower my feeds to every other day to get more oxygen to the roots if their not drinking much..

They don't really look over watered up top they look like they couldn't be happier praying to the gods the whole time but them twisting leaves got me questioning. Also not sure if them praying so hard is stress itself overworking.

Lastly my environment has always been around 25c 60rh but mid flower I have just dropped my Rh to 50% so temps went up to 28c but these are room temps leaf temps will be a little lower. lights are max 800ppfd at the tallest. Roughly 450w on the led consumption.

Cheers fellas any help appreciated @Wastei @NickHardy @Azimuth @West Hippie @Regrowth not sure whom else might have some ideas? I took these pics today and I think they may be worse since changing environment and not feeding so probably feed now and try more often

Happy holidays

Hey Bud! Is runoff coming out at 4.0 at every watering? From the data you posted I'm thinking pH swing and it going on the lower side.

How much Ca is in the feed? It seems like you may lack pH buffers in the medium? Silicates will help you keeping pH higher and letting it stay there, I like to use potassium silicate for the price and accessibility. Calcium and Carbonates either from "Calimagic" or potassium bicarbonate or adding more pH up(potassium hydroxide) and later pH down to pH ~7.0 might help and later check runoff.

I think pH is probably on the lower side. I always have to battle pH down swing from mid to late flower in coir.

Cheers!

 

[Greenvein]

Hey Bud! Is runoff coming out at 4.0 at every watering? From the data you posted I'm thinking pH swing and it going on the lower side.

How much Ca is in the feed? It seems like you may lack pH buffers in the medium? Silicates will help you keeping pH higher and letting it stay there, I like to use potassium silicate for the price and accessibility. Calcium and Carbonates either from "Calimagic" or potassium bicarbonate or adding more pH up(potassium hydroxide) and later pH down to pH ~7.0 might help and later check runoff.

I think pH is probably on the lower side. I always have to battle pH down swing from mid to late flower in coir.

Cheers!

Cheers @Wastei I always use RODI water so first I add 100ppm potassium bicarbonate then 1ml/L of calmag then nutrients that's been my mix from the start but every time from week three flower my pH starts to get lower and lower but I try ignore it and just keep an eye on my ppm.

They look super healthy up until the leaf twist so might try lower pH and see how they like it

 

[Bill284]

Cheers fellas much appreciated.. it probably is mostly paranoia after the last grow they do look great and very healthy I'm just in there like did you move

I was thinking to drop pH to 6.0 but nutrient line say 6.2 in flower but I'll try 5.8 as I really am set on pH.

Yeah Mr @Bill284 that's how my mix is except Im only feeding a quarter what the bottle says so my 40L bin but I'll calculate my nutes to a 10L bin to keep the ratio the same.. I'll be back over to purple pics soon as she's frosting up too! And I'll leave the eaves alone I swear

Much love brothers

I knew that but didn’t say anything.
Didn’t want you to think I was giving you a hard time.
Everyone has their method that works for them.
I’d be well over a 1000 ppm.
Your doing something right.
Take care.

Stay safe
Bill284

 

[Sparkey224]

Pretty sure @Bill284 is going to tell you pH to 5.8 and maybe also something about cal/Mag.

I don't grow in coco so can't be of much help.

Nickkie's got your back though...

I don't agree with 5.8..depending on the ppms..he run 6.3 to 6.4.
Find even with the salts the 6.2 to 6.3 ph depending on the ppms is perfect nutrient uptake

 

[Greenvein]

I don't agree with 5.8..depending on the ppms..he run 6.3 to 6.4.
Find even with the salts the 6.2 to 6.3 ph depending on the ppms is perfect nutrient uptake

Well see bro, some people pH higher and I have with organic bottles which worked perfect but both times with this brand synthetics have shown this same leaf twisting after week 4 flower. My run off pH always drops around the same time so I can try and lower my pH and see if that helps.. not sure if that's what someone said ubove but it might shorten the swing/range and take some stress off.

I think the heavy nitrogen may have come from the organic additives so I'll cut that out too. I went back in and could see it. I must have had tunnel vision

My ppm's has always been good and I always start on the lowe side unless I see a drop in run off ppm but if you grow forests and checking run off would be a mission in itself then feeding on the higher side works the plants will only eat what they need and the rest will be flushed. That's how I see it anyways.

We well see much love bro

 

[Wastei]

I don't agree with 5.8..depending on the ppms..he run 6.3 to 6.4.
Find even with the salts the 6.2 to 6.3 ph depending on the ppms is perfect nutrient uptake

I often end up feeding up to pH 7.0-7.5 on my input in coir in late flower. I say follow the plants response and output, not some numbers listed as ideal on the internet?

I learned coir and soilless before all the recommendations and guides where set up on different sites and forums and I believe you as a grower should better learn how to follow and read the plant instead of following set rules.

My two cents! Cheers!

 

[Greenvein]

I often end up feeding up to pH 7.0-7.5 on my input in coir in late flower. I say follow the plants response and output, not some numbers listed as ideal on the internet?

I learned coir and soilless before all the recommendations and guides where set up on different sites and forums and I believe you as a grower should better learn how to follow and read the plant instead of following set rules.

My two cents! Cheers!

Merry Christmas brother and to all

Yeah I knew you would take a deeper understanding and a more Hydro approach. I know I can probably flush with tap water then feed, this will bring my run off in range quite quickly so may do that.

Both methods clearly work so I suppose I need to choose what one works best for me. My resovoir is only 40L so I have to check it at some point between feeds & working so much I don't have time but don't like feeding once a day knowing that's all they probably get with the low run off.

Still have a good 4 weeks to go so worst case I'll try both methods unless the first one works

 

[Delps8]

I see leaves that are very dark green, so that's N, but I also see leaves that are really close to getting too much light. Leaves "praying" is right on the edge of photo avoidance due to too many photons. By praying, they're reducing the area of the leaf that's exposed to light. I realize that CW says that they're doing great and I agree with that. I use the expression "If they were any happier, they'd have to get a room." but that's a little to close to too much for my taste, and I push my plants lightwise, sometimes a bit too much.

My tuppence/soapbox - get a light meter.

A Unit-T Bluetooth will set you back $32 and will get you very accurate info. If my plants had leaves like that, I'd drop the PPFD by 50µmol.

Lacking a light meter, just raise the light by 1". I use standard rachet-hangers and each click is ¼".

 

[cbdhemp808]

I was gonna say the leaves may be showing "light avoidance". Delps beat me to it, and he knows *way* more than I do in this realm.

Many blessings to all!

 

[Greenvein]

I was gonna say the leaves may be showing "light avoidance". Delps beat me to it, and he knows *way* more than I do in this realm.

Many blessings to all!

I see leaves that are very dark green, so that's N, but I also see leaves that are really close to getting too much light. Leaves "praying" is right on the edge of photo avoidance due to too many photons. By praying, they're reducing the area of the leaf that's exposed to light. I realize that CW says that they're doing great and I agree with that. I use the expression "If they were any happier, they'd have to get a room." but that's a little to close to too much for my taste, and I push my plants lightwise, sometimes a bit too much.

My tuppence/soapbox - get a light meter.

A Unit-T Bluetooth will set you back $32 and will get you very accurate info. If my plants had leaves like that, I'd drop the PPFD by 50µmol.

Lacking a light meter, just raise the light by 1". I use standard rachet-hangers and each click is ¼".

Cheers bro the nitrogen is a easy fix I added some organic stuff to take stress off the roots but it done the opposite I noticed some claw too

Lights! Now your talking my language.
Thanks to the pair of you as it always looks like I'm riding the line as you said and they do this the whole grow as soon as the roots hit the bottom they pray from start to finish but in my original post this was what I was thinking

They don't really look over watered up top they look like they couldn't be happier praying to the gods the whole time but them twisting leaves got me questioning. Also not sure if them praying so hard is stress itself overworking.

Lastly my environment has always been around 25c 60rh but mid flower I have just dropped my Rh to 50% so temps went up to 28c but these are room temps leaf temps will be a little lower. lights are max 800ppfd at the tallest. Roughly 450w on the led consumption.

I will get in there tomorrow and take a closer look. My tallest cola that broke free at the back is sitting at around 800ppfd that's just one top in second place I have a few colas sitting at 750ppfd then finally my net level probably around 650 to 700.. so lower down should show less stress.

Questions.. on the same plant will only the tops with stress show signs or the whole plant as I can see if the leaves are better lower down?

What lights do you guys run and what ppfd in flower? Or just read the plant?

Quite a few people probably know I tell guys not to go over 800ppf as I always get foxtailing.. I forgot this time but was supposed to run alot lower ppfd as the breeders pics showed foxtailed kinda buds so this told me that thes strains could possibly be sensitive to light..

I think this comes down to spectrum a bit but I will take notes Tomorrow then run the clones I took at a ppfd the mother's preferred. I'm running around 450w in a 4x4 currently at 50% but have run the same power with a different brand and no problems ps the fact of them praying gives them less surface makes sense my silly ass said I'd rather them pray so light gets to the bottom too

Cheers fellas and happy holidays!

 

[Delps8]

I will get in there tomorrow and take a closer look. My tallest cola that broke free at the back is sitting at around 800ppfd that's just one top in second place I have a few colas sitting at 750ppfd then finally my net level probably around 650 to 700.. so lower down should show less stress.

Questions.. on the same plant will only the tops with stress show signs or the whole plant as I can see if the leaves are better lower down?

What lights do you guys run and what ppfd in flower? Or just read the plant?

Quite a few people probably know I tell guys not to go over 800ppf as I always get foxtailing.. I forgot this time but was supposed to run alot lower ppfd as the breeders pics showed foxtailed kinda buds so this told me that thes strains could possibly be sensitive to light..

The light saturation point for cannabis is 800-1000µmol. Past those numbers, cannabis can't process any more light. That level assumes that the other parts of your grow are optimized. If you're seeing foxtailing at 800, I'd check that the light levels were actually 800µmol and, if so, check other things in the grow.

And I only add those because 800 is the lower limit. I've fox tailed a plan but I had it at 1250µmol* which is 250 more than the very top end so, if you're getting foxtails at 800, something's not kosher somewhere.

I start seedlings at 250 and get them to the light saturation point as soon as I can. Cannabis loves light and it grows faster with more light. This is a grow from my Spring grow. That was my first photo. Before that was all autos and they're beasts. Those values are based on multiple sample points. As the canopy gets larger, I take more samples to get a better understanding of what's getting how much light.

This set of data is from 4/20/23. That plant was 30" across and 28" front to back so, yeh, I took a lot of samples. That's the plant, a ChemDog, in the picture. I didn't realize that it was getting > 1kµmol but no sign of anything but a well fed plant.

I use an Apogee for my readings but I have an older Uni-T that I use from time to time, as well.

*iIt was one monster plant + one little plant and I tried to get by with just turning up the light on the big one. I ended up foxtailing the big one and having to buy a little Vipar XS-1500 to light the little one. Now, I only grow one plant.

 

[Greenvein]

Nice that's a beast of a plant for sure!
one thing I have noticed on your chart is there is no distance light to plant but I noticed you was hitting near 1000ppfd @ 300w... My top Cola is quite close to the light and (aaah at this point I realised my math was wrong) I'm getting 800ppfd @ 350w. I used a app on my phone to measure ppfd though so I could be higher then I think or your lights is just more efficient. I have the mars hydro fc-e6500 which touches all the walls of the tent.

But yeah 800 is on the lower side so the foxtail look could just be genetic I'm just mor concerned about the twisting leaves. And I'm sure that when a leaf twists from light stress the whole leaf flips over but in my case it looks like the individual fingers are twisting?
But with all this information this is why I was blaming the roots but the lights was always a thought.