Pat and Edge's Unknown/AK/Lowryder#2 Grow - 2010

[PatrizioD]

Nice idea with the cloning, I think we'll do just that. Well Kate awoke from slumber and I can indeed verify Edge's statement that she shot up to over 10". Her stalk is MIGHTY and she's showing quite a few 9 fingered leaves... does this indicate anything maturity-wise? Well, Here are some pictures...

And the new LED with surrounding reflector material...

Kate in the new cab (she's been raised up to almost level with the CFLs since this was taken)

And another artsy pic I took under the LED, I like it...


Again, thanks to all for stopping by and offering advice, criticism, encouragement, or ideas. This is a fun process! Oh and ignore the dates on those pics, my camera wasnt right in the head for a little while....

 

[TorturedSoul]

Nice idea with the cloning, I think we'll do just that.

At worst you've gotten in a little practice. At best you've created a nice mother plant (or enabled the original to become one) of the strain/phenotype. Either way it's a good thing.

Her stalk is MIGHTY and she's showing quite a few 9 fingered leaves... does this indicate anything maturity-wise?

Most plants (including cannabis) will evidence thicker stems as they grow.

As far as the multi-fingered leaves go, often when a plant is under stress it will produce leaves that have less "fingers" than the norm for its strain. Therefore, while not stating anything about its maturity, it shows that a plant is healthy and "happy."

When a plant becomes mature - that is, decided in its sex and able to flower without undue delay - its production of branches switches from "straight-across" to a "staggered," or "ladder" type.

Well, Here are some pictures...

Your plant looks healthy.

Kate in the new cab (she's been raised up to almost level with the CFLs since this was taken)

I would suggest that you realign your CFLs so that they shine directly onto your plant (with the bulbs in a horizontal orientation, and that you place some sort of reflectors on them. Even a soda or beer can that has been cut open and formed into a reflector would be beneficial in directing the light produced by the bulb downwards at the plant. While CFLs are not the most efficient bulbs on the planet, they do produce an appreciable amount of light. But their penetration-ability is slight and rather than have the light produced by them travel all the way to the ceiling of your grow area and reflect back, you would add significantly to the lumens actually hitting your plant with reflectors.

Of course you would not want to block the path of the light emitted from your LED, but you can still improve your setup. Any modification that increases the amount of light that hits your plant from your existing bulbs is like adding "free lights" as you have already purchased them and are already paying the electric bill for operating them.

Just remember that a CFL produces the vast majority of its light to the sides (when the bulb is held in a base-up or base-down orientation); little comes from the "tip" of the bulb and none comes from the socket. Therefore you are best off in setting them up with one side facing the tops of your plant's leaves and the other pointed at a reflector. If you later decide to grow many plants you could derive some benefit from hanging a few CFLs in between them so that the light shined directly at several plants' leaves, but as you are currently growing a single plant - and as plants have the bulk of their chloroplasts on the top surfaces of their leaves - a "top-down" setup would be the best use of your lights.

 

[PatrizioD]

Thanks for the advice TorturedSoul. We're not sure the sex of the plant in the cab yet, and our other 2 bigger plants are still vegging for another week or two. Abby was FIMed and Ziva is LST'd, so we're waiting a little while to see how many plants we're going to have to make room for, and then extrapolate where to place the lights from that point on.

As of right now, Kate (in the new cab) has been raised up so that the top of its pot is about 2 inches below the horizontal plant created by the bottom edge of the bottom CFLs. If you look at the following pic, you can better see the setup. Each surge strip has a Y on top, a Y on bottom, and a single going straight in the middle.

I know its not perfect, but we're hoping for a couple more inches of stretch. Oh yeah, and we're going to lower the shelf anywhere from 4 to 8 inches, and we're working on some...
::drawing a blank::...baking sheets? I dont remember what they're called, but they're reflective, flexible, and cheap. We're definitely making more reflectors.
Tonight I did my first real electrical work! We bought the socket for the LED, stripped an extension cord, and wired it up, and it all worked out just fine. I'm so thrilled, last time I did something of that sort, blue sparks shot outta the cord and set my pants aflame.

Back on topic...so we may have as few as one female, as many as 3. The space is quite limited as you can see, so we're going to try and keep them to a minimum height. This is for personal medicinal use, we dont need huuuuge crops (as much as we'd LIKE them....) By selecting seeds of short-height strains with short flowering periods, we hope to maximize the potential. With the help you guys provide, I have few doubts.

 

[TorturedSoul]

If you either do not have the wood (whatever) to make a horizontal bracket to hang the lights from, I'd suggest that you remount both power strips horizontally instead of vertically and mount them near one of the corners so that the strips are at right-angles to each other. When you have enough plant matter to fill the cabinet that's a different story but for now while you have small plant(s), it would be a quick and cheap (free) way to place more light on the plant(s).

Keeping what light you do have as focused on (and as close to) your plants as possible will not only maximize the amount you can potentially harvest, it will help keep them from stretching as much as possible. Both are good things when dealing with limited space and light.

EDIT: I'm hoping that you get three females. But even if you get only one it is easy to take cuttings from it and quickly(+/-) fill your cabinet to capacity. And I wanted to say thank you for choosing to run a journal here at 420Magazine!

 

[Bud stankalot]

Looking good so far. Now that you've got a little more room, any thoughts on HPS in the future?

 

[Diemand Edge]

If you either do not have the wood (whatever) to make a horizontal bracket to hang the lights from, I'd suggest that you remount both power strips horizontally instead of vertically and mount them near one of the corners so that the strips are at right-angles to each other. When you have enough plant matter to fill the cabinet that's a different story but for now while you have small plant(s), it would be a quick and cheap (free) way to place more light on the plant(s).

Well with a little effort and finagling a 3rd power strip is now hanging over Kate, holding 6 CFLs. Definitely going to need to make some adjustments to the lighting to eventually to accommodate more plants but for now its very illuminated in there. Also mounted some deep broiler pans behind the two side power strips to get a little more light shining back.

Gave Kate, Ziva and Abby thier first dose of bloom nutes. Perhaps that'll help the ones still on 18/6 show sex earlier.

Picked up some interesting CFLs known as odor eaters. They seem to actually eliminate an odor instead of just masking it. They help with rooms 100+ sq feet, so for a small area like a cabinet it should be extremely effective, maybe even taking the place of a carbon scrubber (I hope). Will report more on them as they are used, and as the plants become stinky.

Today took a very close look at Kate, and even though the magnifying glass isn't in yet, with my bare eye is about 99% sure I saw a tiny little sac with two little hairs coming out of it. *fingers crossed*

Abby is taking bushiness to another level, and was almost touching the lights in the other cab. She's close to 8"+ now.

Ziva I had to re-secure one of her LST strings cause she just keeps pulling it up, in spite of two pieces of duct tape holding it down.

The two autos, Leia and Kebert, and growing extremely quickly. Will need to transplant them ASAP.

Overall everything is looking good and healthy.

Thanks for stopping by!

 

[Bud stankalot]

Today took a very close look at Kate, and even though the magnifying glass isn't in yet, with my bare eye is about 99% sure I saw a tiny little sac with two little hairs coming out of it. *fingers crossed*

That may possibly be wishful thinking. It usually takes a little bit before they change it up and start producing "fruit." We're all praying for your girls though.

 

[Diemand Edge]

NO!

I believe I have an actual pest problem now. Transplanted Leia and am now seeing some little white crawly things on the top of the soil, which had been freshly watered. From what I could read symphilids seem to make the most sense. I was reading about a solution of tobbacco and water (strain the tobacco of course) and water your plants with that.

Please help!!!

 

[Bud stankalot]

You need to get a team of lady bugs in there to help control soft bodied pests.

 

[MountainHigh]

Hey, something you guys should consider, might want to start a prophylactic use of Neem oil and spray your grow area, not your plants...every week to discourage roaming pests from exploring there. Or maybe putting something soaked in it in the room.

You can spray the top of your soil with neem oil and water too.

Wish I knew more about fighting bugs....it is veg so almost any pesticide could be used. I would try all the natural ones first...Diatomaceous Earth can also be used as a top dressing to kill anything (not mites I don't think) trying to make it to the surface to fly or crawl up the stem...then find something that holds water that goes about half way up the pot and bottom water...a dry top layer discourages those type of insects I think. They are drawn to the damp earth. I believe you can even buy soil predator's too that live in the soil and eat the pests.

No clue if those have a flying phase, might get up some sticky boards around to catch new adults in case they do...easier to fight them when they don't have as many adults to reproduce.

I hate bugs...I wish you two the fastest bug death possible!!!

 

[Diemand Edge]

I appreciate the insight guys.

I've been trying to devise a plan to assemble a ladybug army, but getting them to bend to my will is outside of my reach at this point. I need a Jedi master. Anyone know how to catch ladybugs?

The problem very strangely seemed to be confined to a freshly potted seedling. The really odd part was that I used the same dirt for another seedling (pest free) and I transplanted Leia(also pest free). I didn't see them in any other pots, and they just seemed to be exploring the topsoil of that one spot. That soil was tossed, the seedling extracted washed and repotted.

Going to look into that Neem oil, thanks for the suggestion MountainHigh.

Here's hoping for an easy fix.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Diatomaceous Earth can also be used as a top dressing to kill anything (not mites I don't think) trying to make it to the surface to fly or crawl up the stem

DOUBLE-ditto on that one! DE works on any soft-bodied insect (and quite likely "worms") that crawl across it. Dries 'em out and cuts 'em (in micro-miniature). What's the word? Desiccates them. Sprinkle a layer wherever nasties are likely to crawl.

I've been trying to devise a plan to assemble a ladybug army, but getting them to bend to my will is outside of my reach at this point. I need a Jedi master. Anyone know how to catch ladybugs?

Seriously? Forget to close a window when you've got a GF who has a thing against "bugs" and go to bed for the evening. When you wake up she'll inform you that you've got hundreds.

Well, not exactly, but... I never tried to catch them so much as I tried NOT to let too many in. I once moved into a house in the country that had been vacant for six months and it had poorly-sealed windows and there must have been hundreds if not thousands in it. Also enough mice to keep four cats in a euphoric state for an entire weekend. After the big clean-out we still routinely found ladybugs here and there although the cats and the mice came to an agreement of sorts (the mice stayed in the fields and the barn and the cats would only slaughter them wholesale when they went outside; of course they went outside a LOT so I don't know how fair the agreement was... But it worked for me, lol).

I think you can get many good insects - including ladybugs - at most of the better hydroponics stores. I remember being kind of surprised at that, it was like the thought of having to actually purchase spiders.

Put a strong fan blowing inwards in a window (that has a screen) and let it run all day. In late afternoon go outside and look to see if any are crawling on the screen trying to get in. If so, let them.

Just reread my post and it seems I'm even more goofy than usual. Therefore, here's a page that discusses which plants to grow in order to attract ladybugs. Maybe you can look for such plants in your area and try to pick up a few ladybugs from them.

https://everything-ladybug.com/attract-ladybugs.html

The last link on that page discusses using them for pest control.

Good luck in your search.

 

[PatrizioD]

Ok first off, congrats TorturedSoul on MotM, and thanks for the entertaining and informative post! Reading stuff on here while baked is great, because you definitely learn it good after reading it 14 times in a row...
So Im wondering if I can prune Kate a bit to remove 3 or 4 fan leaves. I want to let the tops that are beneath said leaves get more exposure to the lights, and removing the leaves is the only good option, tying down would be a PITA, and very ineffective. Heres a pic of Kate, with the leave I want to cut off having red highlights squiggled through them. The one with the blue dot added is the one I could stand to let live.

Thanks for the help!

 

[TorturedSoul]

Ok first off, congrats TorturedSoul on MotM

Lol, that thing's been under my "name" for quite a while. The powers-that-be have chosen not to remove it. I've learned to just ignore it, lol. I haven't even been in the running for Member of the Month lately - which is probably a GOOD thing because there are others far more helpful around her than me. For example, I just voted for MountainHigh in our current MotM contest and nominated WheeloFortune in next month's one (remember to vote in our contests, everyone - link in my .SIG). They'd both make excellent winners. But... you're welcome, as always.

So Im wondering if I can prune Kate a bit to remove 3 or 4 fan leaves. I want to let the tops that are beneath said leaves get more exposure to the lights, and removing the leaves is the only good option, tying down would be a PITA, and very ineffective. Heres a pic of Kate, with the leave I want to cut off having red highlights squiggled through them. The one with the blue dot added is the one I could stand to let live.

When this post first loaded up on my screen I thought, "Now why in the world did he draw on his plant?!?" And I'm not medicated this evening either (maybe that's the problem).

I generally am one to strongly discourage leaf-removal on general principals: They not only hold within them much stored energy for the plant, they are also the "solar cells" that enable it to grow. Without the means to gather in as much energy as possible your buds will not be the best that the environment would allow. Unless you feel that they are blocking the light to significant portions of the plant (and even then) I would be very cautious in removing leaves. Taking a few would be unlikely to be unduly stressful for it, but... Well, you don't yank a spark plug wire off before jumping in the car to go on a journey. If you DO feel that you've got enough leaves that are blocked by those to make up for their removal then I suppose you can use your own judgment.

But - I assume that you stated what you did about training the plant because you feel that spreading it out would cause you to run out of horizontal room? If so, consider this: What if you eventually decide to remove certain branches because you really have run out of room? Are the leaves that you're thinking of removing amongst the plant material that you might decide to remove later, or are the ones that you are wishing to uncover? It would suck if you remove healthy top leaves now only to remove the branches that the lower ones are on later. So... Like I stated, use your own judgment.

 

[PatrizioD]

Well, we didnt trim Kate. We took 2 larger leaves off Ziva, who we are LST'ing. The ones we took were basically on the under-side of the plant, so they werent getting much light to begin with, but were blocking the growth/light paths of 2 more tops.. And the only leaves we took off were ones from the 3rd or 4th node and lower; ones that were just single stalked fan leaves. Im 100% positive that we didnt take off anything that would produce buds, but thanks for the concern. We need better picture-taking equipment (and bigger plants) to really illustrate what were doing in the area of training and trimming, but rest assured, were not going all samurai on the girls... and yes, Im pretty sure that Abby, Kate, and Ziva are all female. Not 100%, but close. Thanks for all the good vibes everyone, and double-thanks for the great advice!

 

[TorturedSoul]

Sounds like you used your head and took a conservative approach.

 

[OldMedUser]

I'm a big believer in chopping out fan leaves that are blocking light from younger, more vibrant fans. When I used to grow under 4' fluoros with two main stems I chopped all the fans off one side and it was the one that grew the best buds and side branches. I have observed the same results with plants for over 20 years since. The big fan leaf that grows below a new branch can be got rid of as soon as the new branch is growing fans of it's own without any loss to the plant and probably benefit to allow light to lower bud points.

With indicas especially getting rid of top fans will promote side branch growth with less stretch. As soon as a fan starts turning yellow it is of no use to the rest of the plant as the mobile nutrients it supplies are readily available from the nutes you're feeding them. They just suck up nutes that are better used by the plant. The yellowing is just an indicator that it's time to chop the useless bits off. When your growing with CFLs cutting out the big fat fans that block light will give you better side branches and buds to the rest of the plant. Cutting off lower branches and fans will go a long way to promoting bigger buds too with any lighting. Every bit of under lighted plant parts is using energy that the tops need to grow the biggest, fattest buds. Chop, chop, chop and clear the way for the nicest buds. Keeping every fan leaf just because it looks good is false economy and steals from your yields. This is not just MHO but observations and advice from growers with lots more real experience than me.

Try trimming one plant that is the same as another and you'll see pretty quick what I'm talking about.

and good growing!

 

[TorturedSoul]

Interesting. I knew that older leaves were said to be somewhat less efficient but did not know that it was a factor in short-term grows such as this. Thanks for the knowledge - any day that I learn something is a good one.

I might have to try a few things differently with some of my outdoor (non-cannabis) plants this year.

 

[PatrizioD]

Conservative indeed. If you knew me, you'd totally understand how that fits, heh. I have about 12 years of landscaping experience (not just mowing and raking, but sculpting shrubs and guiding flower bushes like roses and such), plus I've had large vegetable gardens in my backyard since before I can remember. Im pretty sure that my experience is coming to light here, and once I see the manner in which cannabis plants react to the different methods of training, I'll be equipped with the knowledge to reap some serious nuggets. Man, you should see this rosebush I grew at my parents summerhome...devastatingly beautiful.

On a separate note, anyone have any good ideas for flavoring? Ive read about putting flavor extracts into the dirt 12 hrs or so before harvest, then at 6, 4, and 2 hours left, flushing it with regular water. Thinkin about trying this with something, depending on the plant (bagseed) and tastes from test buds. As you can guess, Id be conservative on that end too, looking for the slightest aftertaste as opposed to a full blown bud-flavor.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Conservative indeed. If you knew me, you'd totally understand how that fits, heh. I have about 12 years of landscaping experience (not just mowing and raking, but sculpting shrubs and guiding flower bushes like roses and such), plus I've had large vegetable gardens in my backyard since before I can remember. Im pretty sure that my experience is coming to light here, and once I see the manner in which cannabis plants react to the different methods of training, I'll be equipped with the knowledge to reap some serious nuggets. Man, you should see this rosebush I grew at my parents summerhome...devastatingly beautiful.

Sounds like I could learn a lot about one of my hobbies (growing plants in general) from you. I wish we had a section for general botanical interests - a lot of things would cross over one way or the other. Hmm...

On a separate note, anyone have any good ideas for flavoring?

Uhh... Yeah, lol. Grow the strains that encompass the flavors that you love. Search out Greenhouse's Flavor Wheel for some ideas, but most breeders and all seedbanks have strains that run the range of flavors.

Ive read about putting flavor extracts into the dirt 12 hrs or so before harvest, then at 6, 4, and 2 hours left, flushing it with regular water. Thinkin about trying this with something, depending on the plant (bagseed) and tastes from test buds. As you can guess, Id be conservative on that end too, looking for the slightest aftertaste as opposed to a full blown bud-flavor.

I'm not a fan of adulterating the flavor my cannabis. OtOH, I'm all in flavor I mean favor of enhancing a strain's natural flavors by removing unnecessary chemicals/nutrients/etc. prior to harvest and other suchlike. A proper flush both with water and with a flushing/cleaning/clearing agent is a good idea whenever there is a chance that your buds' taste might be affected.

There are plenty of folks here who are far more knowledgeable than I. You might find a product such as General Hydroponics' FloraNectar Sweetener (FruitnFusion or PineappleRush), Botanicare's Sweet Grape (think there's also a second flavor), or another like product to be beneficial.

Also, you might do a search here for "blackstrap" - the threads that you get on the search results page and other related threads you are led to by them could be helpful as well.