Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes

[handy afteral]

One more possibly helpful thing I've discovered recently...
There's a new company (maybe only in Quebec), called Bionik, selling a compost I think is similar to that Bu's stuff that gets mentioned often in this thread.
Bionik(R) Compost marin et forestier
I bought a bag of it, and it seems much better quality than the usual stuff that gets sold here as compost. The company claims there's no filler (peat, etc) in the bag. I have no lab coat, so can't corroborate that in any real sense. But I can say it feels much more like what my home-made vermicompost feels like, than anything else I've bought

Yay!
handy

 

[Weaselcracker]

Thanks again handy. That's great! I'll do more digging. If you look at the Gaia Green website, they have a list of store locations. None of them help me because they're all more than two or three days travel away from me, but maybe they'll help you. I'm stuck with mail order for now, and don't see options on the website to order directly. However, since the corner store here somehow acquired a bag of their fertilizer, there may be a way. I don't mind paying quite a lot of shipping. I'd rather not pay more for shipping than the actual product cost, but that may change in another year or two...

EDIT- oh and I see now that the 'Brown Gold' soil mix actually is available by mail. For some reason it wasn't popping up for me last night. Works out to about 4-5 dollars a gallon.

 

[SweetSue]

Thanks again handy. That's great! I'll do more digging. If you look at the Gaia Green website, they have a list of store locations. None of them help me because they're all more than two or three days travel away from me, but maybe they'll help you. I'm stuck with mail order for now, and don't see options on the website to order directly. However, since the corner store here somehow acquired a bag of their fertilizer, there may be a way. I don't mind paying quite a lot of shipping. I'd rather not pay more for shipping than the actual product cost, but that may change in another year or two...

I admire the tenacity Weaselcracker. You, your plants and your patients will all thank you for the effort. Once you get the pots up and running maintenance is a breeze.

handy, welcome to the fold. Thank you for all that valuable information you've coaxed off the internet. I can only imagine the challenges you all go through.

 

[Timmo]

When I grew weed back in the 80s and 90s, the online grower community was a bit existentially challenged, and there weren't a lot of other knowledge resources. So I really didn't know any better when I grew in the cheapest potting soil I could find at the hardware store, feeding with a Miracle Gro knock-off. But I had great genetics, so my ignorance was blissful: I grew great smoke, including the best weed I've ever smoked (not bragging–it was all attributable to the genetics). So when I decided to start growing again last year, I thought I'd really be treating my plants to the deluxe life by potting them in soil from my garden mixed 50-50 with compost. When I told the owner of what is now my favorite indoor garden store what my growing medium was, the sustained blank look on his face told me that I might want to look into soilmaking a little more seriously. After a bit of research, though I didn't have a very sophisticated understanding of what everything did, I came up with a mix of equal parts peat, perlite, and compost, amended with soil sweetener, bone meal, bat guano (9-3-1), azomite, greensand, Ful-Humix, and mycos. I eventually discovered this thread and decided that TLO is the way to go. I added a few more amendments to my mix–kelp meal, crab meal, alfalfa meal, neem seed meal, basalt dust, diatomaceous earth, yucca powder. I've been totally ignoring cost in developing this mix, figuring that it was a worthwhile learning experience. And it has been–learning what all goes into good soil has helped me learn about The Plant's needs.

But now it's time to bring this accidental quest for The Ultimate Soil full circle. Or, as Weaselcracker put it so succinctly this morning, "I do realize that this is dumb, and that there is soil in my garden and backyard." I'm scaling up quite a bit this year, and I can't afford to grow several hundred plants in boutique soil. Plus, I'd like my soil (my entire operation, really) to be as sustainable as possible. I want to get rid of both the peat moss and the perlite and to use locally produced ingredients as much as possible.

I want to substitute pine or hemlock bark for the peat. Everything I've read so far has said that pine bark is the best choice (though I haven't found any explanation for that conclusion). I haven't looked too hard yet, but I'm not sure how readily I can get it in bulk. Hemlock, on the other hand, I can get screened to 3/4" for about $30 a yard.

For the perlite, I want to substitute biochar. I have a huge burn pile of fallen trees and limbs, and I'm going to turn as much of it into biochar as possible. I'm not a biochar expert by any means, but I've read that, if it's chunked up instead of powdered, it works well for aeration. I also have access to bulk pumice for $40 a yard.

What else can I get rid of, cut down on, or substitute? I know I can get alfalfa pellets at the feed store more cheaply–I can also grow my own alfalfa, though that won't help me this year any more. I'm pretty close to the Oregon coast, so I should be able to get oyster and crab shell in bulk pretty cheaply and could probably harvest seaweed to make my own kelp meal.

I live on a small farm, which gives me a pretty decent supply of chicken and donkey manure. We also got two goats recently, though I haven't figured out how to collect the nannyberries efficiently yet.

I'm getting ready to build a big worm bin so I can make my own castings.

I guess my biggest question is whether I can substitute the azomite and the basalt dust with good ole dirt from my garden. I haven't had it tested for a couple of years, so I can't say exactly what the micronutrient content is, but it's pure clay, so it should be loaded with minerals. Obviously a soil test is in order, but is there any reason to think that a couple of shovelfuls of dirt plus the kelp meal wouldn't provide adequate micros?

Does anyone have suggestions on what else I can do to make my soil more affordable and sustainable? Any thoughts on proportions if I use bark instead of peat? Do I need more aeration? Less? More water retention?

Another consideration: I'm planning to put raised beds in my greenhouse–3' tall and wide, 32' long. I'm thinking I'll make the sides open–either hardware cloth or some kind of breathable fabric–and possibly run some perforated pipe through it for added air flow. I assume I could cut down on the aeration in the soil if I did either or both of those things.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Radogast]

Timmo

From my understanding, consider the pumice as a direct replacement for perlite. For some reason related to the corporate takeover of america, pumice is mostly unavailable east of the rockies.

In my searches 2 years ago, I came across some great bulk marijuana soil mixes being sold in Northern California. Sold by the yard in the $8-14 price range. Considering the marijuana laws in Oregon, I would be surprised if there were not some excellent pre-mixed organic soils also being sold in Southern Oregon.

 

[Timmo]

consider the pumice as a direct replacement for perlite.

I'll look into the pumice more. That should save me a small bundle right there.

excellent pre-mixed organic soils

I'm afraid it's too late for that... I've been bitten by the soil-making bug in a big way.

 

[36Gr0w]

I've never heard of using biochar as a straight replacement for the aeration part of the mix. 5% of your mix is great, 33% is too much.

I use much, much less aeration components in my outdoor raised beds.

 

[bobrown14]

Bobrown, how much alfalfa do you put in a container? A few seeds? Enough to grow densely?

Sorry I missed this question... I sprinkle seeds in after transplant of a hardened off plant. The shade from the canna plant will regulate the growth of the cover crop.

After harvest the cover crop with take over - chop then drop, start all over again.

In the backround of this bud pic is another pot with the canna plant chopped and you can sorta see the companion crop alfalfa taking over and flowering. I leave that go until I get another plant to up-pot into that container and just dig a hole for the transplant... cut some of the cover crop back and top dress with that. There will be nitrogen added to the soil from the roots of the alfalfa cover, easily enough to get the young one to flower. The I top dress with EWC and some kelp meal and a tea or 2 at change to 12/12.

 

[Timmo]

I've never heard of using biochar as a straight replacement for the aeration part of the mix. 5% of your mix is great, 33% is too much.

I use much, much less aeration components in my outdoor raised beds.

What percentage aeration should I shoot for in my raised beds? If I go with 5% biochar, how much pumice do I need in addition to that?

 

[36Gr0w]

I'm trying out 0%-20% aeration this year with some raised beds.

The bed doing the best so far is 50/50 top soil/homemade compost/ewc; amended with nettle and alfalfa meal, crustacean meal, gypsum, glacial rock dust, and oyster shell powder. Old decaying logs were put on the bottom first.

I won't actually know my results until end of summer, after seeing yields and tastes between beds.

 

[Timmo]

I don't think I could go as low as 0%--my native soil is pure clay. I guess I'll have to try a few different mixes and see what works best.

Do you think it would work to use a thick layer of coarse bark chips instead of logs at the bottom?

 

[36Gr0w]

Timmo, the bark chips could possibly take nitrogen from the soil for a year or two, depending on how fast it is broken down and how fine the material used. The logs I use are for moisture retention and a long decomposition process to keep fungi and bacteria thriving, along with mulching.

Do you have a compost, or can you start one? I chop up old dead stumps and use layers of that in some of my piles.

Hugelkultur is what you want to search for logs under your garden.

 

[Timmo]

I figured the bark chips stealing N would be an issue. I have a steady supply of donkey manure (2 donkeys), which is supposed to be pretty hot. I was thinking that mixing it with bark chips might be a solution to both the N-hungriness of the chips and the N-abundance of the poop. It would of course be preferable to let the mix sit for a good long while, but I might be able to get away with making it the bottom layer in a deep bed. Maybe? If it's too hot, I assume it'll just keep the roots from growing into the bottom layer by essentially chemically pruning them. But if there isn't enough N, will the chips pull it from the upper layers?

 

[36Gr0w]

I sprout a cover crop in my new beds so I can see if it sprouts and if it grows OK.

I would mix the wood chips and manure together and water with a compost tea. Then I would mulch it and add another compost tea. If available, mix in some bokashi with the chips/manure, and water with em-1 or some LABS. On top of that I would spread some compost and top soil, then my soil mix on top.

Or you could throw the manure and chips in the compost for future use.

 

[Timmo]

Thanks for the advice, 36Gr0w. I read up a little on Hugelkulture. I've come across it before but had forgotten about it. I also did a little inventory of stuff on my property. It turns out that one of the recommended trees for the logs is poplar. Guess what this is:

And this:

These too:

There's more: a few more good sized logs, a very big stump, and probably a couple of yards of chips. We have 10 poplar trees along our driveway. Big branches kept blowing off in the wind, so I topped 8 of them a year ago. The logs and rounds have been sitting uncovered ever since, and it rains a lot here. I wouldn't say that the rounds are rotting quite yet, but there's definite give when you push on the wood, so I'd say they're primed for it. Some nice microbial baths, and I think we'd be off and running pretty quickly. That should probably take care of roughly a third of the volume of my beds (I'm aiming for about 100 cubic yards).

Other things my inventory turned up:

Several good sized, well-into-rotting logs, plus a few old stumps that are still in the ground.

Roughly 2 yards of biochar, ranging in size from powder to superchunk:

There's still a giant pile of wood waiting to be dealt with.

I'll dig through it. Anything that's dry will go into the next biochar burn, and anything that's wet will join the hugel fun. I expect I can get another three yards of biochar.

Also: about half a yard of forest duff (mostly fir needles and cones, small branches and bark, and the remains of last year's leaves from some plum trees).

I'm going to clean the donkey pen and move the mobile hen house tomorrow. I expect to get about two yards of manure and urine soaked pine shavings from the donkeys and about half a yard of chicken manure.

I have two other piles of donkey manure from previous pen cleanings. One, from last fall, is about two yards. The other, from February, is about half a yard. Both got pretty wet from rain and stopped cooking well ahead of schedule. I just moved the big pile yesterday and mixed some straw from the goat pen into it, and today it was already feeling warm. I think if I mix another bale of dry straw into it, and maybe some alfalfa pellets, it should get going again. Same with the smaller pile.

I also have three bales of straw that have been wet since last fall and are composting (I peeled a flake off one today--it was warm inside).

Also: a vast hillside of fast-growing blackberries and some sizeable patches of fast-growing Canada thistle.

I ordered 2000 red worms a few days ago, and I'll have a worm bin up and running shortly.

Last but not least, I have an unlimited supply of pure clay soil.

So I'm thinking that the blackberries and thistle could be worm food or compost material for future use. The chipped poplar and the fresh donkey and chicken manure can form the filler between the logs and rounds for the lower layer of my beds. The wet donkey manure piles can be merged and the wet straw bales and the forest duff added to them with some more dry straw. I think if that cooked for a couple of weeks, it would be in pretty good shape. That, mixed with my clay soil, some sand and pumice, the biochar, a few amendments--oyster and crab shell, rock dust, alfalfa, kelp, and neem seed meal--and probably some purchased compost to fill it out could make up the upper layer. Instead of making that the middle layer and topping it with my boutique soil, I plan to start my clones in 3.5" plastic containers with a light version of the boutique soil, move them up to 1 gallon canvas pots with full strength boutique soil, and then either plant them directly in the beds or move them up to a bigger pot of boutique soil before putting them in the beds. That way they'll get a good start and build a nice rootball in some high quality soil, and always have that plug of goodness right at the core of the roots. I have about 500 gallons of the full strength stuff cooking right now.

I plan to make the worm bin a pretty sizeable thing so I can start topdressing the beds with worm castings as soon as possible. A good chunk of the straight garden will go to growing comfrey, yarrow, nettles, mint, lemon balm, bee balm, sage, cardoon, alfalfa, and borage.

That's my tentative plan for The Ultimate Soil. I'm pretty stoked about how much of it will be truly locally sourced. If anyone has advice on how to make it better or any potential problems, I'd love to hear it.

 

[36Gr0w]

Sounds great Timmo!

 

[SweetSue]

Dropping some educational information for everyone's benefit.

Please help me spread this message as widely as we can on site. Thanks.

OK guys, let's talk a minute. While watching the seminar there was discussion that included reference to an article on the proper way to inhale cannabis and the surprise that most of us have been doing it wrong most of our lives. I went looking for the article and came across it over at Green Flower Media.

So let me ask the gathering....... How many of you hold your hit as long as you can? Yep, me too. As long as I've smoked that was the challenge. How incredibly misguided.

After reading the explaination of how the lungs are structured and the speed with which THC is absorbed - that would be almost instantaneously - I found myself wondering how, as an educator, this had never occurred to me. If the cannabinoids are absorbed that quickly there's no reason to hold your breath.

So stop doing that. Right now please. Be kind to your lungs. You're still going to get all your meds, and you're still going to get high.

Do yourself a favor though, and wait a minute before you take that next hit or vape pull. It takes about that long for the THC to get into the brain and start attaching. Might as well let them do their thing and see if maybe that was enough.

I know, I've always just kept smoking until I got to the edge and slipped over into free fall. When I think of all the money and cannabis I wasted over the years it's chilling. I'm going to explore this new smoking paradigm. Maybe some of you will do the same. The thrifty Scot in me will be happier with this decision.



Just 'cause I care about you.

 

[PeeJay]

Here in my corner of Canada I continue to flail away at this organic soil thing, intermittently and half-assedly, admittedly. Finding the Reindeer Naturals site looks promising. They make a soil called Brown Gold and I've emailed them to see if they are able to send it by mail (it doesn't appear on their mail- order products list). Could be expensive... They do have a fair number of supplements so if I can get the Brown Gold maybe I can mix something up.

I took another stab at going through Build a Soil and looking at the kit that Sue used at the beginning of this thread. It would be heavenly to order up the Clackamass Coot amendment kit and have something to run with. Really what I want is just to put something together now for a soil trial run without having to get a degree in botany or soil chemistry, or spend months and piles of my non-existent money searching and scratching around for products, which I may it may not be able to find. I do have rock dust now though.
Anyway, Build a soil (still) appears to be problematic, since shipping rates are three times the product cost. That's a hard pill to swallow, though I am somewhat tempted to just pay the $135 shipping for the $55 Coot kit and be done with it.
I looked into getting 3 of the Coot kits- hoping for a better shipping rate ratio, but no joy. Over $400 (US dollars) for shipping- then there will be tax, probably duty fees, and possibly long delays on top of that. Not a very organic option.

I've also been looking at the recipe that Robert Celt used in his first journal, which I will re-post below. RC says that he got the ingredients from Home Hardware. So far I haven't been able to find one of the ingredients, which is Black Gold soil. I do have a Home Hardware here though it is very small. Supposedly they will order in any product that's available through their chain, but the staff here couldn't find Black Gold on their website, and neither could I.
If I can't find that particular soil ( Black Gold ) then I think there must be a substitute. Seems pretty simple.

I'm not sure why I keep vaguely wandering around thinking about organic soil but not quite getting there. Besides the fact that my life is upside down right now and I'm stupidly busy, cause that's normal.
Any ideas?
Someone kick me... Or something.

Oh, I see- the standard model kick in the ass isn't available in this part of Canada?
What if I order the hobnails separately, and I will source the leather for the boots when I have time?
Oh...
No hobnails, only roofing nails, no leather, only vinyl, and shipping is the 'special super extra remote rate'?
What about stiletto heels? No?
How about a simple smack?

Yes?!!??
Give me one I want it now!

Oh.
Do you take money orders?
Bitcoin atm? Uhhh yeah, I'll check.

Etc...


I do realize that this is dumb, and that there is soil in my garden and backyard. Just not sure how to go about turning it into a top notch soil for cannabis.

I did a quick search. Check out bustan .ca

They have all the Down to Earth stuff in 5lb packs (alfalfa meal, kelp meal, crab meal, etc.) They also have rock dusts, castings - pretty much everything you'd need except a bale of peat and some aeration.

 

[yankeetoker]

I did a quick search. Check out bustan .ca

They have all the Down to Earth stuff in 5lb packs (alfalfa meal, kelp meal, crab meal, etc.) They also have rock dusts, castings - pretty much everything you'd need except a bale of peat and some aeration.

PeeJay it seems that the DTE Vegan Mix is "comparable" to yumyum based on how it's performing in my soil so far.

 

[Weaselcracker]

Thank you so much PeeJay. I'll check that out.