Landrace Genetics 101

[Conradino23]

It’s simply unnecessary. Traditional breeding methodology is very efficient if supported by the lab.

Also another thing everybody thinks that when they get a cut of OGK from a nursery, rename it and outcross it to another widely available strain it’s now theirs!

What a pile of bullshit. All traditional cultivars are in public domain now, so they belong to everybody!

 

[Pennywise]

Once a chemovar has been in the public domain for 1 year it can no longer be patented.

 

[Conradino23]

On yr side of the pond genetic plant material can be patented:

1.) If it’s federally legal
2.) If 15 year proprietory documentation can be provided
3.) If given material was genetically modified

And I really don’t see anyone meeting these conditions any time soon!

 

[tropics]

Ok so I read their statement and they indeed wanna start a breeding programme and why wouldn’t they? They’re biotech company for fuck’s sake!

What they won’t do though is ripping off genetics, which has been provided to them mostly through stem material? How can they clone or tc a dry stem? They simply can’t. And if they wanna use seeds they’re free to do so. After all anybody can buy or source seeds and do anything they want with them, so I can’t understand this outrage.

Their goal is to develop a stabilised, homozygous strain for the commercial marker that’s coming really fast. Do you know how long it takes? About 10 yrs

Chill out guys. The old is old, but the future is here now and it relies on scientific breeding based on genomic study and identification of useful genetic markers. It’s a logical route to take, nothing more.

I’m actually looking forward to buying a pack of seeds that do exactly what they’re promised to do. And if someone wants to chuck some pollen in their tent they’re free to do so. I don’t see any problem here.

My packs of seeds do exactly what I say they do! LOL
On a more serious note you are correct only Asexual reproducable plants can be patented, other words clones of plants registered and back up with DNA information for proof of ownership. And of coarse its not protected Federally, because cannabis is still schedule one, so no implimented Fed protection for the foreseeable future. And no like you said they cannot do anything with sterilized stem material to produce plants. I researched last night and all this is applicable.
The only thought, maybe not concern is once Phylos has the DNA codes of say most of the strains in their cloud info system charting of their star map of gnome genetics, they simply own that information which is 1/2 of the equation used to form a patent, So in theory they may just need to patent several varieties that contain cornerstones of DNA information and at some point anything with any of those genetic markers, could in theory be consider copy right infringement.
Like the case where Monsanto Sued the Organic farmer who's neighboring field was GMO and the pollen blew onto his corn from the Monsanto crop. When put up for sale, the organic farmers crop as cited in violation, for selling the GMO stolen genetics as it was put.
Phylos may have no ill intent. But if say they got bought out by Marlboro I mean think about it! The Federal laws could change real fast with the tabaco lobby. all genetics available today all came from several handfuls of
LANDRACE strains. JUST SAYIN!

 

[Conradino23]

I don't think it will be done, but you never know. What I think is gonna happen they'll use the most homozygous cultivars if they can get to the seeds and they'll use them as a cornerstone for F1 breeding, which is exactly the same thing everybody's been doing for a few decades, but now they'll be able to do it properly! And of course there's no doubt it'll be a very profitable endeavour.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Phylos is firing up a 95,000 sq foot breeding facility this year and we have Phylos on video telling investors they will use genetic data collected from their testing of other people work.

For f*ck's sake! does Sam the Skunkman own the thing? Seems a lot like what he wanted to do when he was trying to extort information from Nevil Schoenmakers (RiP) about all his strains back when Nevil's issues with the Australian government were preventing him from seeing his kids. Always wondered how that schmuck managed to continue breathing day after day - he should have tried his sh!t in Brooklyn, lol.

 

[Conradino23]

Watched this thing with Mowglie btw and it feels almost like coming out I mean they fuckin’ lied to everybody about their business model, but that’s it... I’ve seen worse really

And the rest is just normal dog eat dog kind of shit. If they don’t choose who they want to get raped by they’ll be fucked by a stranger. It’s just business and YOU invented it... well not personally, but you know what I mean. It’s a very American thing imo.

 

[GrizzWald]

Interesting and kinda make me sick in my mouth.. from another forum..

​

[TD]After Nevil's pasing, Sam weighs in
As far as I know, Sam the Skunkman AKA David Watson has not uttered a peep about the passing of Nevil, which I believe speaks volumes about the man. But he has weighed in with his story about the seeds he sold to Nevil.
The "edited" I was going to post this in was started by Nevil in December 2010, but it is closed. This was Nevil's opening post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil "It looks like dope, but really it's hope," explains David Watson. What he means is that many of these plants have been specifically bred not to produce an intoxicating resin or hashish. Indeed, HortaPharm hopes to thwart the aims of the average recreational user.” The team is already close to finding their own commercial Holy Grail - seeds that will produce a one-off, female, seedless crop of plants with no psychotropic effects for the consumer. Why, you might ask, would they want to do that? HortaPharm is only interested in developing female plants that are sterile, but this is not just to protect their genetic copyright. "If a plant is not kept busy producing seeds, all its energy can go into resin production," says Watsons Dutch colleague and biochemist Etienne de Meijer. Watson believes the bright future of (Cannabis) is contained in the greenhouses of HortaPharm and GW Pharmaceuticals. 'The object is to patent up every possible combination of cannabinoids with efficacy for every possible disease they can treat, and every possible genetic sequence! Once ready to make the move, they will shut down every medical cannabis grower for patent fraud” “Monsanto terminator technology is being applied to Cannabis by (David Watson) at Hortapharm in Holland".'

As avid MNS and haze lore readers know, Nevil's acquisition of haze genetics from David Watson in Holland in 1985 was a seminal moment in modern cannabis history. In particular, much has been speculated about the origins of the seeds David Watson sold to Nevil that produced the legendary Haze A and Haze C males, and how David Watson acquired them. Here's what Nevil said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil The subject of Haze keeps coming up. I got mine from Sam the Skunkman in the 80's. I bought a couple of thousand of old stock late 60s/ 70. The first batch that I planted produced one plant, a female. It was the slowest to flower I'd ever come across and flowered for longer. I got 3 different crops of seed of it and it had still not finished. It was huge and filled a quarter of the room, it had wispy buds and when you smoked it, other people complained about the smell. It didn't have much resin and after 9 months flowering, with no end in sight, I chopped it. It seem the most impractical plant I'd ever grown. I didn't keep a cutting. One of the males I crossed it with was Ruderalis x NL1 X NL1. I was testing a 25% Ruderalis male on the most difficult plant I'd come across to see what it would do. I used all the seed I had to find the earliest male for the next generation. I grew the females out and because it was so resinous, I made hash out of it. To this day it was the best hash I've ever smoked, and I've been privileged to have smoked the best. I truly regret not having made a cutting of that plant. I didn't make that mistake with the 6 that followed. I'm feeling a bit sad now, I think that I'll go and have a smoke. I'll tell you the rest later. N.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil Still a lot of questions about haze and apparently a lot of conflicting stories. I haven't been paying attention to what Sam the Skunkman has been saying. He lost me years ago and if he wants to come out from behind his alias and go toe to toe with me, well that will be just fine with me (hey David). If he is saying that he gave me Purple Haze and it was crap, Well that's true. If he is saying that his lime green Haze was crap , well that's true too. If he is saying that he gave me a Haze cutting, well to be honest, I can't remember, but if he did it was crap. I seem to recall that he entered his lime Haze in a Cup, if he did he got his arse kicked. The Haze seeds I got from Sam were grown in America in 69/70. I got them in the mid 80's. All of my Haze came from these seeds of which I was saying I got 7 plants. I was hoping that Sam would come out with something good from his remaining seeds, he never did and to my knowledge, nor did anyone else. The only good haze that hit the market was from two males A and C. Hz C male produced 5Hz1 which won a Cup or 2, this was a daughter of NL5 which won a cup. 5Hz1 when crossed with Sk1x HzC produced Silver Haze which won a Cup. Ben renamed it Jack Herrer. Somebody else renamed it Diesel. 5HzC X Sk1Hz C was not as good as 5Hz1. Mango Haze (5Hz122)is a full sister to 5Hz1 and these two were the best out of tens of thousands. Haze A produced 5HzA2 (5A2) and was featured on the cover of the 1990 catalogue and is the mother of Nevil's Haze, the father being HzC. If you are smoking any good Haze, I'll bet you London to a brick that it comes from Haze A or Hz C or both!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil After the first batch of '69 Haze seeds only produced 1 plant, I decided to plant the rest. This produced 5 plants A,B,C,D and E. Plants B,D and E were females, of which B was the best. I tried all possible combinations and the best was B x C. BC was actually grown commercially alongside 5HzC1, so it was a 10/11 week plant. This fact alone indicated that HzB was a Haze Hybrid to something early. I suspect that most of BC's quality came from Dad. I planted the rest of the old seeds. One came out. O for Omega. It was a 1970 seed. I suspected that it was only 25% Haze with one parent being Indica. It too did not really pan out. The males were the "goods". Without those two plants, I think that all would have been lost. If I'd only kept a cutting of the first female, whose genotype was closer to male A. I'm start to get that sad feeling again. Ah well, you can be thankful that the seeds fell into my hands, otherwise you wouldn't know what I'm talking about. N.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil Sam would have had the same problem as me. The seeds were very old, either nothing of consequence came up or he didn't keep cuttings of what came up.

So that's Nevil's side of the story. Sam recently responded to questions about what seeds he sold Nevil. Here's a nice summary by our friend leet (l33t) in that thread a few pages before David Watson responded. I quote leet here because I completely agree with what he said, and he said it well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leet As far as the Haze story, I have no idea mate. We only know Sams story and Nevils story which are not really contradicting. It is only contradicting that Nevil said they were from a seedbag labeled 69' but Sam never disputed the fact that this wasnt true. Sam doesnt remember exactly what seeds these were and we have no reason to dispute that the seed Nevil got wasnt labeled as such. Also Sam doesn't remember if he gave him a female or a male clone, Nevil says he might have had a female clone and if it was, it was crap. That's what these people say. I believe Sam had lots of haze seeds he had collected and labeled with years. He sold seeds that were labeled 67-68-69-70+ in the 80's so lets say at least 11 years and if it was 85' ( I remember he said 80s dont remember if he mentioned the exact years ) we are talking about 15 years old seed , maybe even more. Which sounds spot on for the seed germination Nevil had ( 7 out of 1000 ). He might have thought that these were the oldest seeds he had and he would probably wouldnt germinate them or he thought the later seeds were better so he sold the old seed, or he needed money when he moved to holland, who knows mate. Don't forget Sam wasn't there from the beginning of the haze thing, the guys were growing and collecting seed for many years before Sam met them and then he had access and also contributed to these seeds... thats the story. It doens't necessarily mean that Sam was there in 69... Nevil is claiming that Sam probably didnt even smoke the 69 Haze and he only knows the haze from 74 and later. Now I don't know the story behind the Original Haze brothers, I only know what Sam said and Nev said and for me their stories match perfectly and dont contradict themselves... For all I know Nev and Sam could be the same person or the DEA or pals to expertly market their strains. Stories are good for people that dont have anything better to do but they are just that, stories. Peace l33t

Here's the post David Watson made last week:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman I just read all the posts from my last post #1945 to #2376.The seeds I sold to Nevil were all made by me mostly from Holland work. I never sold any I collected from Haze I obtained from the Haze Bros. I sold my work. J & G are the same guy. Almost all my OHaze seeds were from him. I never sold any OHaze X S Indian Kerala or Thai as OHaze, I always called them OHaze X whatever. Burning Bush was 100% pure OHaze I grew it in Calif and named it, RCC also smoked it with me, and loved it. That and another OHaze I called Cream De La Cream and another I called Mr Greasy even though it was a girl, it had very very streched laddery buds that even when dry and placed in a zip bag greased up the bag unbelievably, it was also hard to roll and keep a joint lit. Nevil did not have OHaze seeds from before the 70's 80"s as he got his OHaze from me and I only sold him seeds I had made, all 100% OHaze, but not from the 60's or early 70's as I did not start making OHaze seeds until the mid 70's and in large amounts in the 80's in Holland. I think I sold him seeds I made in Holland after 85'. I will try and answer a few questions if I know the answers, but will ignore any questions I have answered before. Dont ask me about others Haze as I was not the breeder you need to ask the breeder. The reason that OHaze was seldom found in Coffee shops in Amsterdam is because commercial growers wanted herb with a short flowering period, why would they grow a OHaze that took 16-24 weeks and did not yield as much as a 7-8 week plant? That and I was a seed producer not a commercial grower if I was I would have worked up an OHaze pure, that was better then NH at least to me. I get that not all liked OHaze X Skunk or Thai/OHazeXSkunk but I did and many others I know also did. I also have yet to find any Cannabis that had a more Cerebral, Clear, Up, Psychdelic high with no celing that got you higher every time you took a toke. Nevils did not, for me anyway. People have many different preferences I also have mine. RCC agrees with me if that matters. I did not see OHaze until the very early 70's I did see both G's and RL's my wife manicured for G and he was the first OHaze Bro, we were close back in the day, and his was the best. Shame he quite growing OHaze but it was so much easier to get my Skunk #1 seeds for his grows, this was before people maintained clones, and his OHaze was already suffering from inbreeding depression, I did not try and improve my OHaze seed lines I tried to preserve all the genes and only sold them with the advice to use them for breeding not commercial growing, to use for commercial growing you need to grow thousands and select the best 10 clones to reproduce for product, few people wanted to do that. I sold Nevil seeds for $1 a pop for any of my varieties. I sold by the kilo for €5,000 there are 50,000 - 75,000 for small seeds like OHaze. I still have a KG of OHaze seeds made a decade ago they are not for sale they are for a OHaze project I am trying to arrange outdoors in the ground at a latitude of 18 just to find and clone the best 10-20 for production where legal. I have zero problems to keep well made seeds alive stored under refridgerated 4c for 25 years so they are still germainating in the high 90's if and when I do this I will post photos of the 10-20 as well as their Cannabinoid and terpene profiles. These are slightly over 75 per gram so 75,000 seeds and normally I get 70% females with OHaze so I will have lots to select the 10-20 keepers from, I expect about 50,000 females if started carefully. I am retired from selling seeds, but I will allow others to do what they want with my work, they will pay me for the work, and it is not work as I want to do it even retired. FYI the OHaze grown by the Haze Bros were not all equal in quality, maybe 10% were fantastic, 50% good or great, and maybe 10% not as good but most would still think it was great. Each year after 1970 the quality and yields and vigor declined a bit. By 1980 I did not know any large OHaze growers, for the reasons I have stated. I have told the truth, I have zero to gain by altering the truth, I am retired for several years now. I have had a great life, few complaints, I would like to put out a dependable pure OHaze seed line or two for my self and others, even if I do not sell them but let others do so. Selling is work, I do not need the $ and I will only do what I love today. Breeding OHaze is not work for me it is fun, and I think I can do it better then anyone else just because of my experience and history. FYI I have all but given up on Phylos, they have other goals then my interest in Cannabis Evolution and Relationships, but FYI I only sent them extracted DNA no living materials they could steal, I also sent them many of my varieties DNA, focused on Landraces to help explore my interest in Evolution and Relationships. I am glad I tried, nothing ventured nothing gained..... -SamS

David Watson later responded in caps to some questions:

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigherb Sams Do you still have any OHaze seeds from G ? If soo have you tried to germ them ? NO I HAVE NONE LEFT JUST OFFSPRING. From your post I assume Nevils Haze was from pure Lumbo correct? YES. Nevil said you told him burning bush was an ancestor of his seed stock he acquired , the 66-70 dates labeled on Nevils seeds he acquired from you was a BS story ? NOT SURE BUT BURNING BUSH WAS PURE OHAZE I GREW AND NAMED. The fact he got 7 seeds to pop out of thousands from 85 stock don’t sound right . But you would know best THE SEEDS I SOLD HIM HAD A VERY HIGH GERM RATE, HE DID NOT EVER GROW THOUSANDS FROM SEEDS HE GOT FROM ME AS FAR AS I KNOW. Soo all the OHaze you sold to seedsman TFD positronics was pure Colombian? YES UNLESS SOLD AS A HAZE HYBRID. The emphasis all these years folks have made on thai association to OHaze is funny I GAVE BOTH RL AND G THAI SEEDS I GOT FROM GOLDEN OFF THE STICK THAI THAT WAS FANTASTIC IN MAYBE 75 IN SC. THEY MADE A FEW HYBRIDS BUT G LIKE THE PURE OHAZE BETTER AND DID NOT USE THEM AGAIN, RL LIKED THEM BUT DID NOT KEEP CLONES SO THEY WERE GONE PRETTY QUICK, THE SAME WITH S INDIAN, KERALA. I MADE MORE HYBRIDS AS I FOUND THEM INTERESTING. It seems you answered this already but I don’t understand, you never sold any Haze x Thai / S.indian as OHaze . But you said burning bush was OHaze with a strong Thai influence Is burning bush Colombian x Thai ? Or pure Lumbo ? NO THAI IN IT. I love details I appreciate you sharing more with us and setting some things straight, your wife manicuring and details of Nevils stock I hope this future OHaze project comes to fruit and we can possibly have a taste or access to a representation from someone who knows it best TIME WILL TELL. -SamS Much Respect 1luvbigherb

More from Watson:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam_Skunkman This story has inaccuracies I will not correct them as I may wish to tell my own story some day. That is why I do not like to tell all because then someone else will say they have the whole true story, they do not. This has happened several times already.... Hell I am the leader of a Sacred Seeds Collective of many growers started in the 40's or 50's what a joke, I was Sacred Seeds no one else, there was no Sacred Seeds until I started it named it bred the seeds. I did all the breeding or seed production. Big Herb that is why I ignore many of your posts because of articles like this with mistakes are taken as the truth. I do not really want to help anyone that does not get all their "facts" straight. I think the preface was written by Jair whom I know, and the rest by Big Herb in 2011? He did the best he could as he was not there. Hell he tracked down the 3 Haze Bros from back East I never did. -SamS

So we have David Watson laying claim to having produced the seeds he sold to Nevil, completely contradicting what Nevil said. I don't believe a fucking word of it. Nevil had absolutely no reason to lie about what he bought from David Watson, while Watson's new alternate version that he bravely posted after Nevil's death is all about how important his role was in the haze story. He also went on a tear editing other people's posts in that thread and others.

Only the good die young.
Last edited by Marcus_in_the_Darkus; Yesterday at 05:50 PM.
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[Pennywise]

Sam the Skunkman is on the board of directors at Phylos. So is Chimera.

 

[TorturedSoul]

What they won’t do though is ripping off genetics

Even if you were the chairman of the board or the company's CEO, you could only speak to what a company would or would not do right now. Company's do change - otherwise, Bayer would still be using slaves for labor and experimentation. ("The transport of 150 women arrived in good condition. However, we were unable to obtain conclusive results because they died during the experiments. We would kindly request that you send us another group of women to the same number and at the same price.")

How can they clone or tc a dry stem? They simply can’t.

Could be done in theory, at least. One method I read about last year, as one of its steps after sterilizing the sample, had "leave plant material in a laminar flow hood to dry." And I watched an episode of Nova where they discussed cloning ancient, extinct animals, and they were hopeful but were concerned that the sample material might have degraded too much - but that was 50,000+ years old, IIRC, not months (or weeks, or "hey, it's dry, where did I put that postage-paid envelope?")

Whether it can be done by this company in practice is another question entirely. But if it has investors, the potential for an influx of millions of dollars of capital is there.

As to patenting plants... I'm against it. I think if you create a new line out of one or more previously existing ones (which is how any of them get created, unless you want to wait around for the evolutionary process), you should properly credit those whose work you build upon, but that's different. It doesn't come with the ability for a patent-holder to say, "No, you cannot do that with *my* patented thing - in fact, you cannot do anything at all with it, because I refuse to license it to you."

As for being able to patent a plant (in general)... If I understand things correctly - which is by no means certain (standard disclaimer ) - all you have to do is add a marker gene which you own, something that allows you to prove that "your" organism is in some way different than before. Monsanto's Terminator gene comes to mind. Watson ("Sam the Skunkman") and RC Clarke seemed pretty excited at the prospect of creating strains that couldn't produce viable seeds a while back. "Because plants that do not have to devote energy to producing seeds can produce better bud" (might be paraphrased slightly). Which, to someone who has never grown a cannabis plant, might sound sensible. But, gee, I don't know, has anyone ever managed to grow sinsemilla? Anyone, anyone at all? Don't be shy, step on up here <TS gets run over by the stampede > . Yeah... I don't think that's the real motivation behind this, do you?

Can't patent a cannabis strain? Think again. GW Pharmaceutical did it in Canada in 2005 under the Plant Breeders' Rights Act. The strain is called "Grace."

I won't provide a link, because most of them seem to be hosted on other cannabis-related forums. But performing a search for "Dr. Frankenbeanstein" will produce an interesting article.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Interesting and kinda make me sick in my mouth.. from another forum..

I don't know how long that will remain here in that form. The powers that be have been a lot cooler about mentioning other forums recently, but that's a straight thread-grab including lots of links, lol.

On the other hand... thanks .

I do hope it is allowed to remain here. I'll even add a single post link to some background information from the Dutch media:

https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/77368-post183.html

 

[Pennywise]

Right now a PHD who started the Human Genome Project is saying that Phylos doesn’t have the capability to clone from DNA samples. But what they’ve been gathering are dna markers that others can use to replicate specific traits.

 

[TorturedSoul]

They do have the ability to enter into business agreements with other corporate entities, though. So perhaps the real questions are:
1. Can anyone do so?
2. If answer to #1 is yes, is there (potentially) a dollar in it?

Maybe a third: Can the company use even the concept as "bait" in order to arrange to have itself purchased by a larger entity?

 

[Conradino23]

The objective for now is to create new F1s for commercial distribution and that’s a lot of work.

If they wanna play with less than viable DNA that’s another matter entirely and although can be done theoretically it’s way more difficult than tc. But as a project for the future who knows. In a decade or two that’s gonna be totally different market.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Sam the Skunkman is on the board of directors at Phylos. So is Chimera.

Where's a good prolonged DDoS when you need one, lol?

 

[Pennywise]

Lol no doubt, where's anonymous when you need them.

 

[Conradino23]

It’s unstoppable. They just barged into a new territory and if they didn’t do it someone else would who wouldn’t have minimum respect for the plant.

Yep they’ve done it in a sneaky way and I just got an e-mail from my buddy at Phylos in which he was sorry for not being transparent enough... but that’s water under the bridge at this point.

Sure you can boycott them, but when large ag corporations start buying their seeds they’ll roll over traditional breeding circles and that will be that.

It’s the end of an era, ladies and gentlemen!

 

[Ganjagrowergu]

It really seems it is up to us as growers to preserve our own genetics while we still can. With the course the industry is on we will all be forced to dodge yet another legal obstacle once federal prohibition has ended.

 

[Pennywise]

I’ll start doing seed increases with everything i have in my collection. Or die trying.

 

[GrizzWald]

Ok so I read their statement and they indeed wanna start a breeding programme and why wouldn’t they? They’re biotech company for fuck’s sake!

What they won’t do though is ripping off genetics, which has been provided to them mostly through stem material? How can they clone or tc a dry stem? They simply can’t. And if they wanna use seeds they’re free to do so. After all anybody can buy or source seeds and do anything they want with them, so I can’t understand this outrage.

Their goal is to develop a stabilised, homozygous strain for the commercial marker that’s coming really fast. Do you know how long it takes? About 10 yrs

Chill out guys. The old is old, but the future is here now and it relies on scientific breeding based on genomic study and identification of useful genetic markers. It’s a logical route to take, nothing more.

I’m actually looking forward to buying a pack of seeds that do exactly what they’re promised to do. And if someone wants to chuck some pollen in their tent they’re free to do so. I don’t see any problem here.

From my understanding, shanti was speaking about some tech, that it's entirely possible to recreate from samples, DNA /crispr or something along that..