LED Grow Light Review

[TorturedSoul]

I am doing my first grow with an apollo 10 (340 real watts) in a 4x4 and I am quite impresses so far...but I am sure it can be waaay better with some pro led light...

That's only 21¼ watts per square foot. The general recommendation for LED lighting (in flower) seems to be a range from 25-45 watts per square foot. The reason that a range is given is due to the (extreme) variance of quality/power/penetration from LED panel to LED panel (/manufacturer). IOW, even if your particular model is, well, the absolute best one in existence, you would probably see tighter/denser buds - and, most likely, no decrease in yield - if you either increased the amount of light or decreased your grow space. Since less plants in less space usually (not, of course, always) means less work and less expenditures for nutrients/water/etc., you may be happier with a space of around nine square feet. If that light produces a square footprint, then a 3'x3' room/tent might be just the space for it.

The above is my opinion, of course. As in all things, YMMV.

 

[Lumini Grow]

Hi all,
I like many others are looking into the new technology of LED lighting. My question is this, why is there not an official review being conducted by those who are defined as the leaders of providing information in this community? Is 420 planning on doing their own testing and review of this technology? Why havnt those in the know, with the obvious financial backing, completed reviews on this new technology?

If I have missed an official review, could sombody help point me in the right direction?

With the amount of exposure LED lighting is receiving at the moment, I would seriously consider making a dedicated posting area for LED's. Until somthing official is published about this new technology, be it positive or negative, these threads are going to continue to infect grow forums accross the globe. (No pun intended)

Great site guys, keep it up. Your knowledge is appreciated.

It's a good point, so what do you think is needed to be included in a standard official review for a LED brand? Spectrum test analysis, technical specs, function review, grow journal, craftsmanship review? anything I missed? thank u for your advices in advance

 

[TorturedSoul]

It's a good point, so what do you think is needed to be included in a standard official review for a LED brand?

A start to finish grow of one or more known strains inside a reflective room/tent/etc. in which the product being reviewed is the ONLY source of illumination, along with pictures, descriptions of the growing method (et cetera), and (dried) harvest yield totals and grams per watt amounts.

An LED panel - or other light source - can look great on paper, even look great in pictures - but the proof is in the harvest. If it cannot provide coverage to a given area in such a way to allow for the growth and harvest of a great, not-airy crop at a decent level of efficiency (grams per watt)... then the person is better off just using a $100 HPS setup.

The above also helps growers see what the actual real-world footprint for a lighting product is, both in vegetative phase and flowering phase conditions. With all due respect, cannabis - and sativa varieties especially so - is an extremely light-loving plant and, therefore, we have found that some LED products' advertised footprint/coverage specifications are "just a wee bit optimistic." And that is not meant to say anything specifically about your products (which I have zero experience with and, for all I know, might be powerhouses) but, rather, a general statement. Many strains of cannabis evolved at or near the equator - and do best under a like level of illumination. On the other hand, some indicas require (relatively) a lot less light intensity. But a person who grows the more light-loving equatorial sativas may have to lower a light in order to provide optimum intensity. With an LED panel that is made up of many individual mono-color/frequency LEDs, I suppose that this could cause some separation of the spectrum if the light was not designed in such a way to allow for people possibly having to lower it (and, at any rate, lowering the light will generally shrink its useful footprint).

I'm looking forward to seeing one or more people do test grows with your products! I hope they - and your products - do well.

 

[bp1977]

I like your idea but you're going about it all wrong. Grow results as proof is too subjective, too many variables.
"An LED panel - or other light source - can look great on paper, even look great in pictures - but the proof is in the harvest. " I respectfully disagree, the proof is not in the harvest. In that a good or bad harvest does not prove anything. Give a master grower a few t5s and they'll out grow a beginner with any light.

The "only" thing we need is relevant standardized measurements. We almost have that with Par/W, umole/s/m2 and spectum data etc. Manufactures need to report it properly. At the moment many report umole/s/m2 from different heights and different foot print sizes and then giving the figure that you'd get if you filled the m2 with the same coverage.

its not dishonest it just makes it awkward to compare lights. The second part is consumer education. This will take time. Theres a lot to learn before you can make an informed decision on suitable lighting.

In a year or two umole/j will be like m/p/g in cars. Every one will know what it means, it will be reported honestly for the most part, customers will soon realise if its misreported because they'll have a feel for what they should be getting.


Accurate draw wattage, efficiency figures, uniformity figures , btus etc, will give you more usable information than a dozen grow journals. They're lights, thats all. The producer only has to accurately describe the light and his job is done. They dont make cannabis making machines. They make lights. Its up to the well informed consumer to judge if its suitable.

The problem is, as you've said, its way too hard to be an informed consumer at the moment, but it is getting easier.

 

[Tranttt]

I get it in my first grow light indoor .Because it it afford my finances. (Not veg cfl bz it so hot in my tent) Cod led fix that reduce 3-4c.

Veg 4 plant 80x80x160(~3x3x5.5).3 plant sativa 1 indica. Use FLORA pack3
6-8 w3: 3pc fan outline and 1 fan(poor man passionate pursuit...) temp 37c 55% & i can't fix it so although it not good, but I believe myplant can be spent bz it y-griega sativa hybird.

It so okay & ~38c....

12-8 w4: temp ~35c i fell that okay
...

17-8
Lst... I like to drink my way tree


Now 20-8 w5

Change Airpots14lit 30cmx20cm (made in china and saving my money LOLLL)

Again LSD and and I have a little humor

Really stupid do that....

distance from light to plant ~50cm(20in)

i think veg time 2month with y-griega. i read "The veg 2m+ bloom 3m+". Wowwww that big bigg problem. I have not looked into this and now feel really regret. Hot weather will last until October so crazy in this year of my country .


No carbon fillter
No cool air
If temp not bad i fell cod led enough for all. Let me know what do you thing about the light??? ... and how long time veg???

 

[Lumini Grow]

I like your idea but you're going about it all wrong. Grow results as proof is too subjective, too many variables.
"An LED panel - or other light source - can look great on paper, even look great in pictures - but the proof is in the harvest. " I respectfully disagree, the proof is not in the harvest. In that a good or bad harvest does not prove anything. Give a master grower a few t5s and they'll out grow a beginner with any light.

The "only" thing we need is relevant standardized measurements. We almost have that with Par/W, umole/s/m2 and spectum data etc. Manufactures need to report it properly. At the moment many report umole/s/m2 from different heights and different foot print sizes and then giving the figure that you'd get if you filled the m2 with the same coverage.

its not dishonest it just makes it awkward to compare lights. The second part is consumer education. This will take time. Theres a lot to learn before you can make an informed decision on suitable lighting.

In a year or two umole/j will be like m/p/g in cars. Every one will know what it means, it will be reported honestly for the most part, customers will soon realise if its misreported because they'll have a feel for what they should be getting.


Accurate draw wattage, efficiency figures, uniformity figures , btus etc, will give you more usable information than a dozen grow journals. They're lights, thats all. The producer only has to accurately describe the light and his job is done. They dont make cannabis making machines. They make lights. Its up to the well informed consumer to judge if its suitable.

The problem is, as you've said, its way too hard to be an informed consumer at the moment, but it is getting easier.

That's true, grow results are affected by many factors, and a professional grower can get much greater harvest than a new grower. We can provide true tech specs including power draw, PAR data, footprint, spectrum test data, lux, etc. A few grow journals might not be able to show the lighting performance typically.

 

[Slowpuffer]

That's true, grow results are affected by many factors, and a professional grower can get much greater harvest than a new grower. We can provide true tech specs including power draw, PAR data, footprint, spectrum test data, lux, etc. A few grow journals might not be able to show the lighting performance typically.

In my opinion, grow journals are the best way to evaluate , but need to be done by only experienced growers, not someone who has only a few grows, under identical conditions. And should be conducted by an independent 3rd. party, not light mfgs or light salesmen !! And light mfgers. should have to pay a lab to test their products, not give out a light here and there to a few growers they don't even know. Every side by side test of led lighting I ever watched, ended with an excuse !! Great veg lights !!

 

[TorturedSoul]

In my opinion, grow journals are the best way to evaluate , but need to be done by only experienced growers, not someone who has only a few grows, under identical conditions. And should be conducted by an independent 3rd. party, not light mfgs or light salesmen !! And light mfgers. should have to pay a lab to test their products, not give out a light here and there to a few growers they don't even know. Every side by side test of led lighting I ever watched, ended with an excuse !! Great veg lights !!

I do agree with that, in the general sense.

But the problem with testing lights "under identical conditions" is that different types of lights seem to perform better under different conditions. Consider HPS/MH lighting - they have a reasonably good ability to penetrate into a canopy (for an artificial light source). An LED panel - generally made up of anywhere from several to many individual smaller-wattage components - may lack this ability to penetrate... But it might still be capable of producing a comparable yield than an equal-wattage HID if this difference is taken into account. That is certainly not a given - but it is a possibility, nonetheless, and merely performing one identical side-by-side experiment will not discover, err, how probable such a possibility actually is (so to speak?).

Independent third-party testing is important. But find a couple of "master cannabis growers" - ones who have a lot of experience with (respectively) each type of light, who have learned through experimentation which methods/styles best fit the different type of lighting's strengths - and weaknesses - and see what they can make of the things, lol. I would - and do - say that this kind of testing is also important. (In truth, I feel that some strains might be better matched to certain (types of) lights, too. Got a light that provides a great deal of illumination at a high intensity - but over a small area? Equatorial sativas! But if you allow the growers to choose their own strains (or even phenotypes of the same strain), you might introduce too many variables, since different ones tend to have different average yields. So... IDK.)

I would probably not look to a person who has years of experience with, say, HPS - but none with LED - to determine what any particular LED grow light product is capable of. OtOH, that person might be a great candidate for showing whether or not the product can be a viable alternative to HPS for the "traditional HID growers." That person might reasonably expect that his/her first grow with the new (to him/her, at least) product will not be... at the level of performance that he/she attained in the past, because he/she has not gone through the learning curve yet. But (s)he ought to be able to tell whether or not the product - and, by extension, the technology - is worth pursuing. And such a grow journal might be both interesting and useful to others - even though it would be highly unlikely to show the product in the most favorable, err, light possible.

Another thing: I very much agree with the statements about growers who have gotten free products (or use of same) sometimes casting them in a favorable light. IDK how often it happens (in terms of a percentage of the whole) - some folks delight in thrashing new gadgets and would look at such a scenario as license to go nuts looking for deficiencies, lol. But I have seen it happen and thought, "Nah, the product just isn't all that good." In my younger days, I saw a lot of (also younger) people buy performance (or was that "performance" ...?) bolt-ons for their car/truck/motorcycle/boat, spend a lot of money in the process, and end up increasing their performance about... .000001%, lol (or even decreasing it!). Many of them swore up and down that they went faster, and when that was proven to not be the case, "...but I'm still happy, because it sure feels faster!" Maybe it's human nature to not want to feel that one has wasted one's time (and/or money), IDK. Thinking about it, though... I seem to be the kind of guy who ends up getting upset/depressed and other people say things like, "Aw, c'mon, it helped a little." Or words to that effect (depending on the circumstances). I was once involved in the... I guess you could call it the testing side of software development for a device. I just wouldn't take "it'll probably be good enough for most people" as an acceptable answer . I know I made the developer's job ten times harder than he expected it to be, lol. I, on the other hand... really had a lot of fun . "Oh, look, a bug!" "Wow, here's something that I feel the product ought to be able to do - but can't. Make it work, NOW!!!" And suchlike. I figured that was his job... and mine was to be on the side of the people who would eventually purchase the products. I took my job very seriously .

But I think I'm rambling again...

BtW, when I think of a qualified LED grow light tester, I think of forum member Icemud. Is he biased in any way? I don't know - I don't live inside the man's head, lol. But he seems to be very knowledgeable. I have asked him questions about a product or two in the past. He did not have experience with them. I think he has done sponsored grows (various sponsors, IIRC). Instead of trying as hard as he could to get me to purchase one of those sponsors' products (or at least to end up thinking they're "the best"), he asked me intelligent questions about the ones I was interested in. He gave me some good general advice. And he explained that I really needed to know things such as the products' PPFD and so forth. In short, he educated me. That is the sort of person that I'd like to see testing LED grow lights - as a (potential) consumer, I think he has the knowledge and experience to show what a product is capable of doing under good/optimum conditions (because he has the ability to understand what those conditions are); from a manufacturer's standpoint, someone like that could also help them improve their product. So... win/win situation, lol?

 

[ShiggityFlip]

In my opinion, grow journals are the best way to evaluate , but need to be done by only experienced growers, not someone who has only a few grows, under identical conditions. And should be conducted by an independent 3rd. party, not light mfgs or light salesmen !! And light mfgers. should have to pay a lab to test their products, not give out a light here and there to a few growers they don't even know. Every side by side test of led lighting I ever watched, ended with an excuse !! Great veg lights !!

Come on over to any of my grows. I am phasing out my 600 watt sodiums in favor of LEDs. I find greater trichome levels, less heat damage, nice bud size and good yields. I will supplement with HPS in the winter when the lights will give added footprint. I love my LEDs and am getting better and better with them. I am learning just how far I can stretch them and maintain good results. I am also finding that a good light mover can really help with coverage.

I have been pheno hunting this year so I get varied yields but I am approximately 40w/sq foot and my average per plant has been quite good in my opinion, particularly because I pick phenos based on quality. I keep getting better with them and hardly would call them "veg lights." They are hard hitting flower power. They are expensive but pay for themselves in the end because if you buy bulbs at the right intervals for an HID, they can end up just as expensive in the long run. The LEDs that have worked for me are the eshine equivalents of p450 ( which I need to stretch out more), and the Perfect Sun 1000, a 520 watt light I have on a light mover over 4 X 5'. I find the LEDs give superior levels of trichomes and terpenes. I have also grown for over two decades with HPS. Both 600W and 1000W.
This is my Pineapple fields at 43 days post flip. If I filled my garden with these instead of pheno hunting I would be pulling quite a yield. It is in the works this winter to do just that. See the ginger beer bottle for size comparison.

This is twister finishing up last round. She is a 20 year old clone only strain I love. Knowing her for 2 decades she has never given me such great terps as when she was grown under LED light. The bourbon bottle is one liter not 750ml.

These are my 4Csins plants at 43 days post flip at 11.5hrs light / 12.5 hours dark. The bright white light is the Perfect Sun 1000 led and the blurples are the Eshines. I have no allegiance to any light in particular, just what works best. In veg I have a T5 and a 600w HPS. I leave the LEDs for flower.

I do still have an HPS 600W in flower but she will be gone soon! Right now my different spectrums make for a pretty rainbow in pics lol.

If you want to see a great LED monoculture grow look up Ottowagreen's threads. He has been pulling 2+lbs off of 3 Eshines (265 real draw watts each) in a cabinet with a light mover. So if its yield that concerns you he should dispel that worry. If it's trichs, look at my first pic. Check out arteekay's grows. All LED and he started this year. He pulls great yields. Check out LEDRF's grows. Check out icemud and light addict's journals. The old crap LEDs are mostly gone. This is a new generation of LED and another on the horizon with COBs


You also can't compare straight PPFD or umoles. They don't take into account how the spectrum is distributed. They don't give weight to a particular wavelength as long as it is in the right range. With LEDs one of the strengths is adding more light at any nm. You want more far red? Add in some 730watt LEDs. It's as simple to supplement spectrum as changing the number of LEDs of any color. So with LED we can dial in exactly the spectrum we want. That's pretty darn cool imho.

Things will only get better from here as we learn exactly what spectrum will give the biggest quality and yield. In all fairness I will disclose I got the perfect sun free to test, but know also I am buying another to complete the grow and kick out the 600w sodium. I also paid for my Eshines. 320 bucks shipped each for 265watt draw lights. 3bucks per 2 watts is not bad at all. Compare that to CMH plus bulb replacements over 5 years! Sure a regular HPS is also cheaper but not in the long run. And not when you add in the cost every month to cool it compared to LED.
When we do yield calculations it should add in the wattage used to cool the grow. Right now I am using a 6000btu aircon to cool 1580 watts of LED and 600 watts sodium during the hottest summer in years. I did have some top fans burn when an exhaust duct got unfastened (using metal clamps now). Under the sodium only. The plants one foot away under the Perfect sun were unfazed.

 

[Mpfstc]

I switched to LED's a few months ago and I don't plan on going back. My leaf temperatures are the same as room temperatures. Plants can touch the lights without burning. I'm still trying to perfect it. My soil doesn't dry out as fast so I was watering/feeding less. I had to up the PPM's on my solution to compensate for less feedings. I also bought a pair of LED grow light glasses to correct the color that I see plants at in my grow room.

 

[TorturedSoul]

Come on over to any of my grows.

Nice looking plants.

I am also finding that a good light mover can really help with coverage.

Wouldn't that also apply to other types of lighting which tend to produce an area of high intensity illumination directly under the light? I am thinking of, for example, 600- and 1,000-watt HPS lights which, regardless of the reflector used, send a great deal of light straight down. <SCRATCHES HEAD> In fact, I was thinking that, when I saw the thread by a sponsor about an LED panel and something like "...beat a 1,000-watt HPS," and read that the sponsor stated a linear light-mover was more or less necessary in order to use that product to successfully beat the HPS... that I posted asking if it would beat the 1kW HPS when it was also set up on a light mover - and that I never got an answer to my question. But in all honesty, I may be misremembering and actually have forgotten to ask the question, lol. We be burnt .

I have been pheno hunting this year so I get varied yields but I am approximately 40w/sq foot and my average per plant has been quite good in my opinion

What is your average per square foot? And, if you are not placing all the plants in the grow room at the same time and harvesting them at the same time (which I assume you are not, since you are growing multiple strains), can you calculate or give an estimation that takes that into account? (IOW... Some plants might receive more light if/when their neighbors are removed and replaced with smaller / less developed ones, which makes a strict "grams per square foot" calculation problematic if this is not taken into account; so does the fact that some plants will end up being in the room longer than others.)

particularly because I pick phenos based on quality.

Understood. I realize that the truly spectacular strains/phenotypes (read: sativas ) are not grown for their yield amounts (/flowering times/ease of cultivation/etc.), lol.

They are expensive but pay for themselves in the end because if you buy bulbs at the right intervals for an HID, they can end up just as expensive in the long run.

I am not sure that I can credit that logic - at this point in time. There is too much development occurring. If someone buys an HID setup - particularly true with C&C ballasts, but to an extent with electronic ones as well - then bulb replacements are pretty much their only expenses in that regard... Because the HID setup that they purchased a decade ago is most likely comparable with one that they might purchase today. With LED, OTOH, many growers that purchased LED panels ten years ago (and who are still growing under LED) have probably replaced those panels that they originally purchased. I expect that to be true to a large extent for the foreseeable future. The LED panel that I currently have in my possession is much advanced compared to the early examples that hit the market (it's got COBs, man, COBs ). It was created in 2015 - just last year. But even that one has been replaced by a newer, more powerful version - that went from ~350 watts to ~450 and uses a newer generation of COBs. And there is at least one newer generation of COBs from the manufacturer of those things (and I think a newer generation than that). The "I'll have less expenses than the HID user because my LED panel will last 50,000 hours" only holds water if a significant majority of LED users will still be using those same panels 50,000 "light-hours" (not to be confused with the astronomical measurement, lol) in the future. I think there will come a time when advances in LED (grow light) technology slows enough that the argument will be valid. (I know, many current-era LED products can produce fine harvests - but there's a lot higher likelihood of upgrading if one uses LEDs.)

Perfect Sun 1000, a 520 watt light I have on a light mover over 4 X 5'.

Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of (my comment about the "...beat a 1kW HPS" thread, above). I wonder how a 1,000-watt HPS would do in comparison to that product if it were on a light rail, too? Either in a comparable space or one that was shaped somewhat differently but of about the same area. 1,000-watt HPS setups are reasonably inexpensive. With both using a light mover, that expense would be moot. Yes, the HID grower would have to figure in bulb replacements. But PlantMax (certainly not the best in the industry, lol - but many are happy with them) 1kW bulbs can be had for $20-$30, and even Hortilux can be found for around $60 shipped if one shops around. DE setups are a little more expensive, but not terribly so - and provide greater performance. I wonder how they would do in a "head-to-head," if both the HPS and the LED setup were tuned to the max for the specific lighting technology? I really have no idea which would be the clear winner or even if there would be one. I wonder how much that Perfect Sun 1000 costs, retail? IDK, because he decided to call his website "growpotcheaply," which gives my paranoia enough of a security worry - but then when I try to access the website, I find that he is trying to run so many ^*&#ing scripts on my computer that, even after I approve a couple that appear to be fairly harmless... I still cannot view the page correctly. IDK, maybe the guy doesn't really want to sell product or something :rolleyes3 ...

And, yes, at ~540 watts, that Perfect Sun would be cheaper to run. IDK by how much; it would vary according to the user's cost per kWh. In flower, the HPS user would be using, what... 5.52 additional kWh per day? In a 30-day month, that'd be 165.6 more kWh. At 12¢ per kWh that'd amount to... an additional $19.87 per 30-day month for the HPS user. Don't get me wrong - that expense IS worth noting. However... If the average cost for a bag of top-shelf cannabis (and who grows sh!tty cannabis, lol?) is, say, $400... Just how significant is an extra $19.87 per month over the course of an eight- to twelve-week flowering period? It would all depend on the difference in yield between the two setups.

If you want to see a great LED monoculture grow look up Ottowagreen's threads. He has been pulling 2+lbs off of 3 Eshines (265 real draw watts each) in a cabinet with a light mover.

Hmm... Two pounds equals 896 grams. Grown under 795 watts, that works out to 1.13 grams/watt. I have managed around that in the past, but that was when I had money to build the grow I wanted, a good environment (temperature and humidity control), et cetera. There is NO way that I'll get anywhere near that with my "Po' Boy Redneck Grow" which will also be my "Use an LED Panel to Grow Cannabis for the FIRST Time Ever" grow, lol. I suppose I'll be satisfied to achieve .6 g/w - and I would be turning (figurative, lol) cartwheels if I managed .75 g/w. So... Yeah, 1.13 g/w is real nice, and something to be proud of.

So if its yield that concerns you he should dispel that worry. If it's trichs, look at my first pic. Check out arteekay's grows. All LED and he started this year. He pulls great yields. Check out LEDRF's grows. Check out icemud and light addict's journals.

All great growers, and they undoubtedly consistently nail great harvest numbers. Speaking of checking out people's grows... Have you ever heard of Heath Robinson, lol? IIRC, what he is most famous for (in certain circles)... is for consistently pulling in 2+ g/w harvests - with HPS, lol. I think his best run was something like 2.4 grams per watt (in a stadium or some other kind of vertical-bulb-orientation setup - something that I guess isn't possible with LED?). That's enough to give a guy... grow envy . You got the name/handle of any LED growers who have managed that? As mentioned, I am an LED virgin and can use all the examples of greatness that I can get.

So with LED we can dial in exactly the spectrum we want.

I think that is the real benefit of LED grow lights. HID bulb manufacturers can only play with phosphor/etc. content to change the color temperature. (And, in a very few cases, add a supplemental "element.") Whereas, with LED panels... I can think of two or three manufacturers/sellers right now that I could contact, give them the exact wavelengths (and ratios of same), and they would happily produce a bespoke panel for me. It'd cost me, though. Still, you just can't get that with HPS/MH/etc.

Things will only get better from here as we learn exactly what spectrum will give the biggest quality and yield.

True, that.

when you add in the cost every month to cool it compared to LED.

I wonder how significant that is to the average grower, one who grows year-round? It took me a long time to get it through my head that the optimum temperature range for cannabis was a little higher than I had previously believed and that, if given enough light, a canopy temperature of 86°F is far from a handicap. I'm dealing with a space that, when it is 91°F outside and sunny all day, it might end up being 108°F (or worse... <SIGH>) at the end of the (daylight portion of the) day, anyway, so in my case ANY added heat is significant. But if the ambient temperature in the grow room with no lights being run is, IDK, 72°F on "an average day," and there is adequate ventilation... And the HPS is inside an air-cooled reflector that has a separate ducting/fan setup (so that the major portion of the grow room's heat need not be treated for odor, so the portion of the grow room air that is being treated for smell need not be so large (or the carbon filter of such a high capacity), and so that the carbon filter will last longer)... And the plants are given enough light-energy so that they actually grow/flower better at 86°F than 72°F... What, then, is the additional cost in terms of heat? Figured as a monthly average over the course of an entire year (during which, in some months, any "extra" heat would actually be beneficial - either to the grow room, itself, or when moved to the living spaces. That's a benefit of HID over LED - air-cooled HID reflectors are common as sand on the beach, lol, but I have only seen one or two examples of that kind of LED panel. And that (for all the other LED panels) means that the hot air produced by the LED panel must be dealt with together with the rest of the grow room air. I'm hoping to see many more LED panels that have 6" or 8" duct connectors (instead of those little fans that just move air from the grow room through the panel and back out into the grow room) in the future. I'm also hoping to see... Why in the <BLEEP> don't any LED manufacturers offer an option to have the power supplies separate? Maybe the power supply(/supplies) of an LED panel produce less heat than an HID ballast does when each product consumes the same amount of wattage. I really have no idea. But those power supplies must be producing some heat. I have never seen a 100% efficient electrical device of any kind (or a room-temperature superconductor for that matter, doggone it!). And every desktop computer that I have owned since, IDK, 1981 ended up helping to heat the room that it was in in the Winter and to add to my misery in the Summer. Give me remote power supplies, lol. Are they the same thing as the ones in desktop computers? The connector on the cords (both of them - this one has a separate power cord for the UVB bulb so that it can be controlled by its own timer) seem to be similar to the one that connected my desktop to the electric outlet before someone talked me into "loaning" it to them and then moved away.

When we do yield calculations it should add in the wattage used to cool the grow. Right now I am using a 6000btu aircon to cool 1580 watts of LED and 600 watts sodium during the hottest summer in years.

Wow, where do you live? Are your neighbors... penguins, lol? I used to use an 8,000 BTU a/c in my bedroom (and I don't live on the equator). I later rigged up a duct to direct a portion of that to a small (400-watt) grow area, and it managed to keep both me and the plants alive during an average Summer (no days above 100°F, and only a dozen or two close to it). That meant that the bedroom was no longer where I liked it (65°F max) but I was able to lay in bed without slowly creating a puddle of sweat (at least when... alone ), so the portion of air-conditioned air that dealt with the bedroom was enough to keep it around 70°F or thereabouts. And, like I stated, I was only running 400 watts of lighting, so I kept it cooler in there than 86°F... Probably around 81°F-82°F. And that space was being vented directly into the bedroom (no stink filter). Reflector wasn't air-cooled, though, so that would have made a huge difference. I wouldn't have given two shiny sh!ts if some other part of the house was receiving that portion of the heat-load, but had to "eat light" to afford a $29 el-cheapo open reflector as it was. I'm impressed. 6,000 BTU, huh? Gee, I wish my shack was insulated. I wish there were big shade trees all around it. I wish there wasn't a staggeringly huge structure built into the south(!) side of my house soaking up the Summer heat all day long and heating the house all night so that I could at least start each hateful sunny day somewhere near the outdoor temperature at dawn instead of well above it. I wish... I wish I didn't tend to ramble so, lol.

I did have some top fans burn when an exhaust duct got unfastened (using metal clamps now). Under the sodium only. The plants one foot away under the Perfect sun were unfazed.

Ah, there's no fault (as far as the lights are concerned) when... operator error causes an issue. Been there myself, many times. Seen "a few" colas grow into the HPS "lenses" (glass on air-cooled reflectors) back when I was using 430-watt "added blue element" bulbs and 430-watt C&C ballasts. A couple of times, those air-cooled reflectors... weren't (IDK, stupid I guess), so the glass was hot. I'm sure overall yield suffered (and that the buds were more airy than they should have been) - but the plants lived and were healthy (a bit crunchy in a couple places that must have been touching the hot glass for a day or two, and transpiration rates probably went through the roof although I don't remember one way or the other). Turns out... It's hard to kill a cannabis plant.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

nice looking plants.

thank you ts, that is super appreciated! That at least dispels the previous "great veg lights" someone posted lol.

wouldn't that also apply to other types of lighting which tend to produce an area of high intensity illumination directly under the light? I am thinking of, for example, 600- and 1,000-watt hps lights which, regardless of the reflector used, send a great deal of light straight down. <scratches head> in fact, i was thinking that, when i saw the thread by a sponsor about an led panel and something like "...beat a 1,000-watt hps," and read that the sponsor stated a linear light-mover was more or less necessary in order to use that product to successfully beat the hps... That i posted asking if it would beat the 1kw hps when it was also set up on a light mover - and that i never got an answer to my question. But in all honesty, i may be misremembering and actually have forgotten to ask the question, lol. We be burnt .

for this, i think neil was mentioning that in order to cover the same area a light mover would be needed ( the light itself covers about a 4x2 imo. So in order to keep the intensity and have it cover the space you would use a mover, my expenditure will be compensated by the fact that i plan on moving all my leds to a mover, alternating my blurple eshines with my supplemented white ps1000. I am a firm believer in mixing spectrum as in my garden the best buds on a plant often appear at the junction of two different lights. Additionally blurples have a bad habit of bleaching bud tops. There is just something in the yellow or green spectrum that causes a plant to realize the light is intense and take steps to avoid the bleach. So putting the hps on a mover may be a good thing too. Currently it is believed it can increase yields by 20% or so. For me it means i can have the ps1000 as close as 8 inches above bud tops instead of 2 feet. People with hps can do thi as well but to less of an extent. An hps puts out enough heat that i would think 2 feet away on a ventilated mover would be best. A good example of what would be a great hid on a mover would be is a 315 cmh. Rock that cmh back and forth a foot or so and you would get the benefit of being closer to the tops and also to spread the hot spot. I do think light movers are great for all types of light. They have the added benefit that when the light moves side to side it hits from different angles, hitting the spots on a plant that would be in the shade without a mover.

what is your average per square foot? And, if you are not placing all the plants in the grow room at the same time and harvesting them at the same time (which i assume you are not, since you are growing multiple strains), can you calculate or give an estimation that takes that into account? (iow... Some plants might receive more light if/when their neighbors are removed and replaced with smaller / less developed ones, which makes a strict "grams per square foot" calculation problematic if this is not taken into account; so does the fact that some plants will end up being in the room longer than others.)

i kind of try and do the batch method as much as possible. This means sometimes i have removed the last plant early in order to get the next ones in. It is because i am pheno hunting, rebuilding my strain collection after taking a few years off from growing. So taking into account that info i have been doing well. Two grows ago was from just the eshines and two 600w hps. It was my second grow after a break and i used no ac. I pulled .61g/w for 60 days, which can be adjusted to 0.634g/watt when accounting for just 11.5 hours of light/day instead of 12.

The lst grow i had bigger plants like the pineapple fields. I added in the new perfect sun and removed a 600w hps. But it was halfway through flower so i dont think anything useful could be gained tryig to figure out gpw per 60days. But i will say that if you look at the hits the brix plants vs the next journal my plants look much bigger.

This grow i think yields will be significantly better. But some of this is due to having those monster sativas in there. I am also getting more familiar with the leds. Certainly there is a growing curve present with leds. I need to spread my 4 eshines further apart. Currently i am getting bleaching in that area of the garden (another reason to put all my leds on one mover. I have them covering to small an area at about 4' x 5' i need to spread them apart and turn them sideways. That will give me 6x5' and i think that will be about what they should cover correctly. Someimes its hard for an old grower to learn new tricks. But this is an added benefit of led. For leds i think many smaller is better than one big. Well for any light really. 5 400w hps in an x would outerform 1 1000w hps in the center. Just by remoing the central hotspot and getting even light to the edges.

So ideally...i would think a big yielder like pineapple fields in a monogrow and all the leds on the same mover i will surely hit well over 1gpw. But as i said it is not a concern. I grow for pleasure most of all so i will keep some of the lanky small bud strains like agent orange. (two were in the grow i calculated. They had similar dry weight as the others but really take up 3'x3' as opposed to the 2'x2' i normally try to keep. In a commercial high yield set up those would have to go. This next grow i have some cookies strains and gg#4 hybrids so i expect i will miss the yield numbers again. But as i said before, those getting high yields are often running hydro (did that, not enthisiastic to return to that.) and also running high ac expenditure. I really think we should include fan wattage, ac wattage, and circulation pumps, aerators, etc to the gpw calculations. Excluding them is kind of ridiculous when you think about it.

So once i am done with pheno hunting i will run a monoculture for 3/4 of the grow and use the last 25% for ndividual favorite plants. The monoculture will switch from batch to batch to keep things interesting but having all of the same type of plant is a super booster to yield (even canopy of proven strains)

tl;dr i believ leds can yield up with the hids i just need a bit more experience and a monoculture of a selected pheno to do a benchmark grow.



understood. I realize that the truly spectacular strains/phenotypes (read: Sativas ) are not grown for their yield amounts (/flowering times/ease of cultivation/etc.), lol.



I am not sure that i can credit that logic - at this point in time. There is too much development occurring. If someone buys an hid setup - particularly true with c&c ballasts, but to an extent with electronic ones as well - then bulb replacements are pretty much their only expenses in that regard... Because the hid setup that they purchased a decade ago is most likely comparable with one that they might purchase today. With led, otoh, many growers that purchased led panels ten years ago (and who are still growing under led) have probably replaced those panels that they originally purchased. I expect that to be true to a large extent for the foreseeable future. The led panel that i currently have in my possession is much advanced compared to the early examples that hit the market (it's got cobs, man, cobs ). It was created in 2015 - just last year. But even that one has been replaced by a newer, more powerful version - that went from ~350 watts to ~450 and uses a newer generation of cobs. And there is at least one newer generation of cobs from the manufacturer of those things (and i think a newer generation than that). The "i'll have less expenses than the hid user because my led panel will last 50,000 hours" only holds water if a significant majority of led users will still be using those same panels 50,000 "light-hours" (not to be confused with the astronomical measurement, lol) in the future. I think there will come a time when advances in led (grow light) technology slows enough that the argument will be valid. (i know, many current-era led products can produce fine harvests - but there's a lot higher likelihood of upgrading if one uses leds.)

in this case we have to assume the grower does not replace the lights with something better. We also assume the hid guy is doing the same thing. A guy running 600w sodiums could upgrade to cmh which are almost expensive as led, certainly so after bulb replacements.
But really if someone is upgrading an led, it doesnt mean the original isnt working well, they will only upgrade if they feel the new generation will bring better quality and yield. So that is an individual choice that will ay for itself after one or two grows. They could keep the led and still use it. I would say that led users are those that like to get new things. Hps is more old schoolright now, the two personality types are different (in general). An led upgrader could also shift the old lights to another room or sell them off. Really the old leds will still be fiunctioning well so i think it isnt a valid point that they cost more because someone "wants" to upgrade. A frugal grower could happily keep going with the same light. A car doesnt cost more because someone chooses to get the next model. Someone is keeping that same car till it dies.



yeah, that's the one i was thinking of (my comment about the "...beat a 1kw hps" thread, above). I wonder how a 1,000-watt hps would do in comparison to that product if it were on a light rail, too? Either in a comparable space or one that was shaped somewhat differently but of about the same area. 1,000-watt hps setups are reasonably inexpensive. With both using a light mover, that expense would be moot. Yes, the hid grower would have to figure in bulb replacements. But plantmax (certainly not the best in the industry, lol - but many are happy with them) 1kw bulbs can be had for $20-$30, and even hortilux can be found for around $60 shipped if one shops around. De setups are a little more expensive, but not terribly so - and provide greater performance. I wonder how they would do in a "head-to-head," if both the hps and the led setup were tuned to the max for the specific lighting technology? I really have no idea which would be the clear winner or even if there would be one. I wonder how much that perfect sun 1000 costs, retail? Idk, because he decided to call his website "growpotcheaply," which gives my paranoia enough of a security worry - but then when i try to access the website, i find that he is trying to run so many ^*&#ing scripts on my computer that, even after i approve a couple that appear to be fairly harmless... I still cannot view the page correctly. Idk, maybe the guy doesn't really want to sell product or something :rolleyes3 ...

And, yes, at ~540 watts, that perfect sun would be cheaper to run. Idk by how much; it would vary according to the user's cost per kwh. In flower, the hps user would be using, what... 5.52 additional kwh per day? In a 30-day month, that'd be 165.6 more kwh. At 12¢ per kwh that'd amount to... An additional $19.87 per 30-day month for the hps user. Don't get me wrong - that expense is worth noting. However... If the average cost for a bag of top-shelf cannabis (and who grows sh!tty cannabis, lol?) is, say, $400... Just how significant is an extra $19.87 per month over the course of an eight- to twelve-week flowering period? It would all depend on the difference in yield between the two setups.

20 bucks/ month is 240 per year! For someone maximizing their commercial potential that could be quite a difference over a whole grow, especially if they are trying to maintain a low bill for detection sake.

hmm... Two pounds equals 896 grams. Grown under 795 watts, that works out to 1.13 grams/watt. I have managed around that in the past, but that was when i had money to build the grow i wanted, a good environment (temperature and humidity control), et cetera. There is no way that i'll get anywhere near that with my "po' boy redneck grow" which will also be my "use an led panel to grow cannabis for the first time ever" grow, lol. I suppose i'll be satisfied to achieve .6 g/w - and i would be turning (figurative, lol) cartwheels if i managed .75 g/w. So... Yeah, 1.13 g/w is real nice, and something to be proud of.



All great growers, and they undoubtedly consistently nail great harvest numbers. Speaking of checking out people's grows... Have you ever heard of heath robinson, lol? Iirc, what he is most famous for (in certain circles)... Is for consistently pulling in 2+ g/w harvests - with hps, lol. I think his best run was something like 2.4 grams per watt (in a stadium or some other kind of vertical-bulb-orientation setup - something that i guess isn't possible with led?). That's enough to give a guy... Grow envy . You got the name/handle of any led growers who have managed that? As mentioned, i am an led virgin and can use all the examples of greatness that i can get.

what strain is that guy growin? It's still impressive but i bet it is a super high yielding strain and also a monoculture grow. Still impressive though yeah! For those that wanted to do that with led i think it is definitely possible. To accomplish it i would:
1. Low plants with even tops
2. Dwc
3. Multiple lower watt (@200) leds instead of singular big ones.
4. A strain that is meant for sog or scrog and super yields
5. Monoculture.


In general i have seen better quality plants in my own garden when under the led. Equal yields to the hps but better trichome coverage and better terpenes.



i think that is the real benefit of led grow lights. Hid bulb manufacturers can only play with phosphor/etc. Content to change the color temperature. (and, in a very few cases, add a supplemental "element.") whereas, with led panels... I can think of two or three manufacturers/sellers right now that i could contact, give them the exact wavelengths (and ratios of same), and they would happily produce a bespoke panel for me. It'd cost me, though. Still, you just can't get that with hps/mh/etc.

yes i agree. I saw a monstergardens video where they explained a lot of established hps grows were checkerboarding their old hps with leds, leading to signature terpene profiles. For most people that is what i would reccomend, get an led and place it between your existing hid lights. Then replace the hid over time. Its a generalization but leds run somewhere in the realm of 30% efficiency more than hid. That means the hid is losing all of that as heat. So again we have to add the cooling cost to the hid grams/ watt.

true, that.



I wonder how significant that is to the average grower, one who grows year-round? It took me a long time to get it through my head that the optimum temperature range for cannabis was a little higher than i had previously believed and that, if given enough light, a canopy temperature of 86°f is far from a handicap. I'm dealing with a space that, when it is 91°f outside and sunny all day, it might end up being 108°f (or worse... <sigh>) at the end of the (daylight portion of the) day, anyway, so in my case any added heat is significant. But if the ambient temperature in the grow room with no lights being run is, idk, 72°f on "an average day," and there is adequate ventilation... And the hps is inside an air-cooled reflector that has a separate ducting/fan setup (so that the major portion of the grow room's heat need not be treated for odor, so the portion of the grow room air that is being treated for smell need not be so large (or the carbon filter of such a high capacity), and so that the carbon filter will last longer)... And the plants are given enough light-energy so that they actually grow/flower better at 86°f than 72°f... What, then, is the additional cost in terms of heat? Figured as a monthly average over the course of an entire year (during which, in some months, any "extra" heat would actually be beneficial - either to the grow room, itself, or when moved to the living spaces. That's a benefit of hid over led - air-cooled hid reflectors are common as sand on the beach, lol, but i have only seen one or two examples of that kind of led panel. And that (for all the other led panels) means that the hot air produced by the led panel must be dealt with together with the rest of the grow room air. I'm hoping to see many more led panels that have 6" or 8" duct connectors (instead of those little fans that just move air from the grow room through the panel and back out into the grow room) in the future. I'm also hoping to see... Why in the <bleep> don't any led manufacturers offer an option to have the power supplies separate? maybe the power supply(/supplies) of an led panel produce less heat than an hid ballast does when each product consumes the same amount of wattage. I really have no idea. But those power supplies must be producing some heat. I have never seen a 100% efficient electrical device of any kind (or a room-temperature superconductor for that matter, doggone it!). And every desktop computer that i have owned since, idk, 1981 ended up helping to heat the room that it was in in the winter and to add to my misery in the summer. Give me remote power supplies, lol. Are they the same thing as the ones in desktop computers? The connector on the cords (both of them - this one has a separate power cord for the uvb bulb so that it can be controlled by its own timer) seem to be similar to the one that connected my desktop to the electric outlet before someone talked me into "loaning" it to them and then moved away.

yes the leds drivers produce less heat than ballasts. A lot of the higher efficiency of light generation in led means cooler output. Still i was thinking of getting some diy cobs from timber and placing them in a piece of polycarbonate in my old hps ventilated hoods. The air would flow across the aluminum heat sinks and keep the room even cooler but the leds themselves would still be outside the polycarbonate.. (right now i am at a nice 84f in flower with the 6000btu ac.) i do agree the hid heat can be beneficial in the winter. I plan to spread out the plants and will bring in my 600w sodiums to the grow when it gets colder. Why pay for heat when i can add light instead? I live in the se so winters are fairly mild and summers warm but not unbearable. The past few weeks have had some 90f+ temps.

wow, where do you live? Are your neighbors... Penguins, lol? I used to use an 8,000 btu a/c in my bedroom (and i don't live on the equator). I later rigged up a duct to direct a portion of that to a small (400-watt) grow area, and it managed to keep both me and the plants alive during an average summer (no days above 100°f, and only a dozen or two close to it). That meant that the bedroom was no longer where i liked it (65°f max) but i was able to lay in bed without slowly creating a puddle of sweat (at least when... Alone ), so the portion of air-conditioned air that dealt with the bedroom was enough to keep it around 70°f or thereabouts. And, like i stated, i was only running 400 watts of lighting, so i kept it cooler in there than 86°f... Probably around 81°f-82°f. And that space was being vented directly into the bedroom (no stink filter). Reflector wasn't air-cooled, though, so that would have made a huge difference. I wouldn't have given two shiny sh!ts if some other part of the house was receiving that portion of the heat-load, but had to "eat light" to afford a $29 el-cheapo open reflector as it was. I'm impressed. 6,000 btu, huh? Gee, i wish my shack was insulated. I wish there were big shade trees all around it. I wish there wasn't a staggeringly huge structure built into the south(!) side of my house soaking up the summer heat all day long and heating the house all night so that i could at least start each hateful sunny day somewhere near the outdoor temperature at dawn instead of well above it. I wish... I wish i didn't tend to ramble so, lol.



Ah, there's no fault (as far as the lights are concerned) when... Operator error causes an issue. Been there myself, many times. Seen "a few" colas grow into the hps "lenses" (glass on air-cooled reflectors) back when i was using 430-watt "added blue element" bulbs and 430-watt c&c ballasts. A couple of times, those air-cooled reflectors... Weren't (idk, stupid i guess), so the glass was hot. I'm sure overall yield suffered (and that the buds were more airy than they should have been) - but the plants lived and were healthy (a bit crunchy in a couple places that must have been touching the hot glass for a day or two, and transpiration rates probably went through the roof although i don't remember one way or the other). Turns out... It's hard to kill a cannabis plant.

this is just remarking that the 600w hps 2 feet away burned the plant while right next to it the 520 watt led didnt do anything to colas 8"away in some cases. I appreciate all your comments as they were well thought out. I like the dialog we have going here. Only good things can come of it! I am also not tied to the leds when something better comes along! Whatever i feel is the best for the garden is what will get used!

...

 

[watcher6342]

i just received my VIPARSPECTRA Reflector-Series 300W LED. also my 48x48x78 grow tent. 2 light straps and a humidity checker. next i will try and get the ph meter and filter set up. i think i will go with afghan or white widow for first grow ever.

 

[watcher6342]

i cannot find a thread that shows which accessories i will need for first time or which is most important. if you know of one, please tell me. thanks.

 

[richmac]

Hi lookin good wow. Im a first timer I have 4 PR.450 full spectrum leds. My grow area is 5x5 How many plants can I grow.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

here's a great collection of posts. Read a ton and it will serve you very well. Lots of stuff on room set up.

How to Grow Marijuana - Everything You Need to Know!

 

[heywally]

Newb here, have chosen the 420 forums because it looks like y'all have the most rational people per square foot.

I have done a few small T5 grows a long time ago and some outdoor but have not been "doing" pot for quite a while. Turning the switch back on, mainly for some of the med and health positive effects (or so I tell myself), as I am 64 and have a few health issues. Have new Med certificate in Calif., which I may still need if Sessions eventually sends in his brownshirts and the National Guard for the recreational stuff. I can only guess where his priorities will be but there is something to be said politically for keeping the masses happy and not being too stupid. Maybe someone will keep him reined-in.

Looking to do a grow of a high CDB strain with LED lighting, 1 or 2 plants so I don't need a lot of power, I guess. Really tough to tell what is what LED-wise out there from the reviews (many of which seem obviously bogus or uninformed.) After some research, I think that I will settle for a low-end manufacturer (not sure which one yet) initially, purchased via Amazon Prime for an easy return in the first 30 days, and just consider it a potential throw-away, just to see how a low-end does. Then, as LED's get better and cheaper (and hopefully easier to identify value in) over the next 2 years, I can upgrade to one of those. Will update .....

 

[brjjb]

Dont go off brand or to cheap youll get what you pay for

 

[brjjb]

I went low end and bud size suffered really suffered

 

[Slowpuffer]

You forgot about the truth in advertising !! If we were told the truth, we can and would buy quality. And you say you're not in business of growing pot, well , quit advertising in our market place. You know dam well all those lights are not being used for suntanning !! Bullshit, if I buy a light , I expect it to do what you say it can do. What you're saying is leds can't compete, hps ?? leds are great for vegging, and they are finally getting better at the expense of drawing more wattage, but in my opinion still can't produce the produce !! When they do, I'll buy one when the rush is over.