New growth clawing

[Emilya Green]

Oh yeah! That is a lot of improvement, and quickly. Don't give in yet. You got to be cruel to be kind sometimes. It will be obvious when she needs water again. With most of her leaves reaching upwards toward the light, you will notice the very bottom leaves start to lower again. If you have a sensitive nose, you will notice that she puts out a perfume when she gets to this point. You have about 12 hours of water left when you notice these indicators, but don't give in just yet. Make her work for it. Every hour you do this, up until the point when the water pressure breaks and the wilt travels up to mid level, she will be growing new root mass. She is a survivor... take advantage of that.

 

[Mifit1984]

Oh yeah! That is a lot of improvement, and quickly. Don't give in yet. You got to be cruel to be kind sometimes. It will be obvious when she needs water again. With most of her leaves reaching upwards toward the light, you will notice the very bottom leaves start to lower again. If you have a sensitive nose, you will notice that she puts out a perfume when she gets to this point. You have about 12 hours of water left when you notice these indicators, but don't give in just yet. Make her work for it. Every hour you do this, up until the point when the water pressure breaks and the wilt travels up to mid level, she will be growing new root mass. She is a survivor... take advantage of that.

Excellent, will do! I'll keep this thread updated on her progress. I really appreciate you and everyone else that took the time to guide me on this. This thread will for sure help a ton of other people that come across it!

 

[SmokingWings]

I don't know why you think that going through a wet-dry cycle destroys roots in flower. Many areas experience drought at the back end of the growing season and the soil outside dries out completely. This does not seem to harm our plant or kill its roots.

First, I did not say that a wet-dry cycle destroys roots in flower. A controlled wet-dry cycle has its purposes and benefits in developing a healthy root system and I have not said different. I did say that a grower has to watch out for how dry they allow the soil and therefore the plant to get. There is also a limit to how many times it can be done, when the plant is in flower before problems start and cannot be fixed. Going to far with either water or lack of water is something that has be watched out for. We are seeing one example of too much water over a period of time at the start of this thread. We see examples of the other extreme when the soil gets dry either too often or for too long of a time in other threads on this message board. Proper watering before, during, or after either extreme is an acquired science and art.

Letting the soil dry out once or twice and then resuming a watering schedule as you have done is not a problem. The problem is the growers who are going through an extreme cycle every couple of weeks over a 10 to 12 week flowering cycle. This will lead to a weaker plant with a weaker root system and lower yield, in both quantity and quality, at harvest time. Or, in extremes, a dead plant.

As for the plants that go through a drought near the end of the growing season outdoors they are in a different soil environment. Their root systems can expand out and into several cubic yards (27 cubic feet per cubic yard) and have much more soil to absorb water from. Even if the drought does not kill these plants any extended drought will eventually have an impact on the harvest, no matter if it is cannabis or corn, tomatoes and peppers. The vast majority of the plants that we are growing indoors have root systems growing in a cubic foot of soil and as that soil gets dry the roots can quickly absorb just about every little bit of water available. Just to keep in mind how extreme the situation can get we have to remember that a 3 gallon pot of soil --if it is actually a 3 gallon volume-- is .4 cubic feet. That is less than a half of a cubic foot. There is a big difference in volume of soil that the plant has available to get water from. The outdoor plant might be able to go 2 weeks without adequate rain and still recover with little or minor damage. But, a plant in 3 gallons of soil might only have 2 to 4 hours after drought conditions start before permanent damage starts.

It is recognized that the plant's growth above ground has a direct correlation to the root system growth and the opposite as in the root system has an impact on above ground growth. Research has shown that once the plant enters its flowering stage, pretty much in two weeks after the change to a 12/12 hour light schedule, that the majority of above growth stops as the plants system switches over to developing flowers. The root system slows down and pretty much stops growing new roots and "root hairs" to replace any that are damaged by over-watering (killed by root rot) or by lack of water (drying out beyond its ability to re-hydrate and survive).

The info below backs this up. And it backs up my experiences from growing cannabis clones and allowing them to dry out 3 or 4 times during flowering. Growing plants is a hobby and because I was, and still am, growing plants from cuttings it is not a problem for me if they suffer damage or die as the result. It is a deliberate experience to see what happens and how to recover. I have found that allowing a flowering clone plant in 1.5 gallons of soil to dry out and wilt for two days before resuming water is not a problem. It is a minor problem if I do it 3 times over a 5 to 6 week period. But when I do this drying test a 4th time I have found that there is no opportunity to do it a 5th time.

(Note The plants take in water through the "root hairs" which are microscopic and not directly through that mass of thin roots that we see when we dump a plant out of its pot after harvesting. Those roots are often a couple of times thicker than a human hair. The root hairs themselves are rarely thick enough to be seen without a microscope and are measured in "uM" or microns. One micron is equivalent to one one-thousandth of a millimetre [1 micron (1µ) = 1/1000 mm]. These "root hairs" are not very long at all and it is because of the sheer volume of them on those thin roots that allows a plant to absorb the water and nutrients it needs. Eventually as those long thin roots grow a bit thicker they stop growing the "root hairs" from their surface and are there to be used for the storage and transportation of water and nutrients but not absorption.

Roots in plants | CANNA Gardening USA
Discusses the growing of roots and root hairs, the search for moisture, and that dry conditions will kill off existing root hairs, that it can take up to 3 days for enough new root hairs to grow so that the plant will absorb water.

Cannabis roots: A complete guide
Discusses cannabis root growth, root growth during flowering, and especially the results and damage done to roots by periods or drought or an extended drought period. Includes that there is a direct correlation between root growth and the growth above ground.

Without much rain, roots dive deep to find water
General information on the structure of a root system using trees, etc. This can be used to help understand the root structure on cannabis plants.

Root Hair in Plants: Function & Overview | What is Root Hair? - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com
Just a video which will last long enough to show the basics on root systems before it asks the viewer to register as a teacher or student.

Physical effects of soil drying on roots and crop growth
Getting more technical on the function and growth of the parts of the root system including what happens if the system is stressed.

There were other links I read through but did not keep if they went into other aspects of plant growing that was not related to roots.

This list is some of the search questions I asked or used yesterday morning instead of taking care of my weekend chores....

* how fast do hair roots on plants grow
* will drying out kill hair roots on plants
* transport of water in plants
* how thick is a hair root on a plant
* if a plant gets dry does it kill the hair roots
* do plants stop growing new roots during a drought
* do plant root hair die in dry conditions
* um measurement

(Note One of the above links shown earlier does mention auto-flower plants and why a period of water stress, either too much or too little, has a direct effect on the growth of those types of plants and why they can remain small all the way into and through flower.

 

[Emilya Green]

First, I did not say that a wet-dry cycle destroys roots in flower. A controlled wet-dry cycle has its purposes and benefits in developing a healthy root system and I have not said different. I did say that a grower has to watch out for how dry they allow the soil and therefore the plant to get. There is also a limit to how many times it can be done, when the plant is in flower before problems start and cannot be fixed. Going to far with either water or lack of water is something that has be watched out for. We are seeing one example of too much water over a period of time at the start of this thread. We see examples of the other extreme when the soil gets dry either too often or for too long of a time in other threads on this message board. Proper watering before, during, or after either extreme is an acquired science and art.

Letting the soil dry out once or twice and then resuming a watering schedule as you have done is not a problem. The problem is the growers who are going through an extreme cycle every couple of weeks over a 10 to 12 week flowering cycle. This will lead to a weaker plant with a weaker root system and lower yield, in both quantity and quality, at harvest time. Or, in extremes, a dead plant.

As for the plants that go through a drought near the end of the growing season outdoors they are in a different soil environment. Their root systems can expand out and into several cubic yards (27 cubic feet per cubic yard) and have much more soil to absorb water from. Even if the drought does not kill these plants any extended drought will eventually have an impact on the harvest, no matter if it is cannabis or corn, tomatoes and peppers. The vast majority of the plants that we are growing indoors have root systems growing in a cubic foot of soil and as that soil gets dry the roots can quickly absorb just about every little bit of water available. Just to keep in mind how extreme the situation can get we have to remember that a 3 gallon pot of soil --if it is actually a 3 gallon volume-- is .4 cubic feet. That is less than a half of a cubic foot. There is a big difference in volume of soil that the plant has available to get water from. The outdoor plant might be able to go 2 weeks without adequate rain and still recover with little or minor damage. But, a plant in 3 gallons of soil might only have 2 to 4 hours after drought conditions start before permanent damage starts.

It is recognized that the plant's growth above ground has a direct correlation to the root system growth and the opposite as in the root system has an impact on above ground growth. Research has shown that once the plant enters its flowering stage, pretty much in two weeks after the change to a 12/12 hour light schedule, that the majority of above growth stops as the plants system switches over to developing flowers. The root system slows down and pretty much stops growing new roots and "root hairs" to replace any that are damaged by over-watering (killed by root rot) or by lack of water (drying out beyond its ability to re-hydrate and survive).

The info below backs this up. And it backs up my experiences from growing cannabis clones and allowing them to dry out 3 or 4 times during flowering. Growing plants is a hobby and because I was, and still am, growing plants from cuttings it is not a problem for me if they suffer damage or die as the result. It is a deliberate experience to see what happens and how to recover. I have found that allowing a flowering clone plant in 1.5 gallons of soil to dry out and wilt for two days before resuming water is not a problem. It is a minor problem if I do it 3 times over a 5 to 6 week period. But when I do this drying test a 4th time I have found that there is no opportunity to do it a 5th time.

(Note The plants take in water through the "root hairs" which are microscopic and not directly through that mass of thin roots that we see when we dump a plant out of its pot after harvesting. Those roots are often a couple of times thicker than a human hair. The root hairs themselves are rarely thick enough to be seen without a microscope and are measured in "uM" or microns. One micron is equivalent to one one-thousandth of a millimetre [1 micron (1µ) = 1/1000 mm]. These "root hairs" are not very long at all and it is because of the sheer volume of them on those thin roots that allows a plant to absorb the water and nutrients it needs. Eventually as those long thin roots grow a bit thicker they stop growing the "root hairs" from their surface and are there to be used for the storage and transportation of water and nutrients but not absorption.

Roots in plants | CANNA Gardening USA
Discusses the growing of roots and root hairs, the search for moisture, and that dry conditions will kill off existing root hairs, that it can take up to 3 days for enough new root hairs to grow so that the plant will absorb water.

Cannabis roots: A complete guide
Discusses cannabis root growth, root growth during flowering, and especially the results and damage done to roots by periods or drought or an extended drought period. Includes that there is a direct correlation between root growth and the growth above ground.

Without much rain, roots dive deep to find water
General information on the structure of a root system using trees, etc. This can be used to help understand the root structure on cannabis plants.

Root Hair in Plants: Function & Overview | What is Root Hair? - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com
Just a video which will last long enough to show the basics on root systems before it asks the viewer to register as a teacher or student.

Physical effects of soil drying on roots and crop growth
Getting more technical on the function and growth of the parts of the root system including what happens if the system is stressed.

There were other links I read through but did not keep if they went into other aspects of plant growing that was not related to roots.

This list is some of the search questions I asked or used yesterday morning instead of taking care of my weekend chores....

* how fast do hair roots on plants grow
* will drying out kill hair roots on plants
* transport of water in plants
* how thick is a hair root on a plant
* if a plant gets dry does it kill the hair roots
* do plants stop growing new roots during a drought
* do plant root hair die in dry conditions
* um measurement

(Note One of the above links shown earlier does mention auto-flower plants and why a period of water stress, either too much or too little, has a direct effect on the growth of those types of plants and why they can remain small all the way into and through flower.

Thank you for all that research and for putting all aside to get it done! You are a true cannabis warrior!

In general you're correct in all that you said but every rule has an exception. In this thread we're dealing with a problem case where the plant has been treated wrongly and we are now recovering from extended over-watering. That takes some special technique. You are right though, and for all the reasons that you listed, I am not a proponent of the droughting method at the end of or in bloom.

I am also speaking here about a cycle, not an extended drought, not an extended dry out of the soil, but a natural cycle that in my Bloom rooms with strong roots, I get an almost complete dry out of my soil in two or three days because the roots are pulling water that quickly out of the soil. While it won't kill the plants to let them go another day or two and really dry out the soil, I agree with you that this will kill some of the finer hairs and reduce the efficiency of the roots, and if it's done at the wrong time in the grow, the damage that it causes can become non-recoverable. This is another reason why I don't use the droughting method to end my grows.

So again, thank you for the warnings, but I'm not proposing that extended dry outs should be happening during bloom, but I strongly disagree that following a 2 to 3 Day wet/dry watering cycle harms the plants in any way. Some people push water during bloom and I think they result in having larger plants versus someone who is letting the plants go through a full wet dry cycle. It's all about how much water can be converted into plant mass.

In this case we are trying to get the plant to recover from some atrophied roots, and I have seen this drying out method work time after time to recover from over watering. Your warnings will apply later, but for now this plant is in ICU, and it requires a little extra care.

 

[bluter]

hey guys if you look at the leaves you'll see a reverse cup on a number. that's a classic sativa over water sign. i'm pissed i didn't catch it. we coulda cut straight to it.

i forgot my sativa rules d'oh. the puffy leaf thing is more for indica. with everything being a hybrid now it gets muddy. this one is definitely a sativa leaner though.

edit : it did grow through a tad too much n though. i don't mind that and often will do it near on purpose in veg.

 

[Mifit1984]

hey guys if you look at the leaves you'll see a reverse cup on a number. that's a classic sativa over water sign. i'm pissed i didn't catch it. we coulda cut straight to it.

i forgot my sativa rules d'oh. the puffy leaf thing is more for indica. with everything being a hybrid now it gets muddy. this one is definitely a sativa leaner though.

edit : it did grow through a tad too much n though. i don't mind that and often will do it near on purpose in veg.

In all fairness, most people suggested N toxicity as well. She has pretty dark leaves and was clawing which, from everything I gathered previously, are usually associated with N toxicity.

 

[Emilya Green]

In all fairness, most people suggested N toxicity as well. She has pretty dark leaves and was clawing which, from everything I gathered previously, are usually associated with N toxicity.

But again, you are growing organically in a supersoil. You have not done anything to cause N overload, and this is definitely not N toxicity which is very ugly. You have little bitsy triangle indications at the ends of some of your leaves, which is very common when growing organically. The same signal that the plants send through the roots to the microbes to stop bringing more N is the same signal that causes this leaf tip necrosis. The adage that has resulted in this confusing indicator is, "if you aren't at least burning the tips, you aren't trying hard enough." The darker color is simply showing a well fed plant that has had all the N it can use. Nothing here indicates any sort of nutritional problem.

That leaves watering as the cause of the complaint and the cause of this clawing. We are addressing that and will soon know that this was the correct course. Don't chase ghosts, don't grow by committee and pick one change to go with, don't use a scatter gun approach or you could lose the battle, and you certainly won't have a clue which thing caused the change... so you won't learn anything. Don't go with what most people say... most people are usually wrong. One lone voice out there in the wilderness is usually the one trying to shout the truth. The nature of forums and other public chats, is that that small voice is often overlooked. Trust your gut.... move slowly, and remember that not everyone can be right.

 

[bluter]

But again, you are growing organically in a supersoil. You have not done anything to cause N overload, and this is definitely not N toxicity which is very ugly. You have little bitsy triangle indications at the ends of some of your leaves, which is very common when growing organically. The same signal that the plants send through the roots to the microbes to stop bringing more N is the same signal that causes this leaf tip necrosis. The adage that has resulted in this confusing indicator is, "if you aren't at least burning the tips, you aren't trying hard enough." The darker color is simply showing a well fed plant that has had all the N it can use. Nothing here indicates any sort of nutritional problem.

That leaves watering as the cause of the complaint and the cause of this clawing. We are addressing that and will soon know that this was the correct course. Don't chase ghosts, don't grow by committee and pick one change to go with, don't use a scatter gun approach or you could lose the battle, and you certainly won't have a clue which thing caused the change... so you won't learn anything. Don't go with what most people say... most people are usually wrong. One lone voice out there in the wilderness is usually the one trying to shout the truth. The nature of forums and other public chats, is that that small voice is often overlooked. Trust your gut.... move slowly, and remember that not everyone can be right.

so long as we avoided a flush all works out

 

[Mifit1984]

Ok so the clawing has continued to improve, buds are growing and she looks better all around. But I noticed this one older fan leaf about a third of the way up that looks like its showing signs of some deficiency. I want to say it's calcium judging by the charts @bluter posted, but am unsure. If this does look like calcium, I have a bag of this compost and can either top dress with that or brew some tea. I also have some organic calmag supplements. Although Sohum is supposed to be a water only mix, this girl is covered in flower, so it wouldn't surprise me if it was some nutrient needed for flowering.

 

[Emilya Green]

Looks like magnesium to me which is much more common and can't be added in bulk to a super soil. Be very careful of making assumptions and quickly acting on suggestions from the internet. Calcium deficiencies almost always show in the upper third of the plant.

Give your plant a dose of Cal mag on your next watering.

 

[Emilya Green]

Based on the color and the little triangle stop feeding me indications of the tips of your leaves, I would say that your plants are in great shape! Trust your soil, it is working.

 

[StoneOtter]

Your plant otherwise looks as good as it gets Mifit! Nice color, leaf shine, formation. Sweet!