Octopus' Garden

[Ennui]

Hey guys, name's Nate. I'm about midway through my first grow. I've got a 2x2x4 with a 600W LED and a 4x4x7 with 1200W and 600W LEDs. I'm growing in soil. The plants look like they'll enter puberty any day now. I'm a knucklehead and have nothing to judge by except what I see and read but things seem to be going better than good so far. (Knocks on skull) I got rambunctious with the nutes at first, which affected the Amnesia Haze. The tips of a few leaves started to brown and I knew it wasn't the light as it's further away than recommended. I flushed the plant with about 3 gallons of correct Ph water and she recovered within a day. I flattened a clone into the dirt when a thermometer dropped from the top of the tent. I grabbed a leaf... pulled and the plant was an accordion. I propped it up with a wire, didn't tape it or anything and it's growing faster than it's mom. I had a timer issue where it would turn on/off at every time but what it was set for. It was digital so other than smacking it on the side of the desk, there's not much to be done. I have another the exact same and it's ticking away. I replaced the digital with an analog and once I had the correct tabs battened down, I superglued them in place. Other than those minor things...

I planted July 18th, I figure a week for germination even though they all sprouted the next day, 3 weeks as a seedling and the rest veg. The flags where the buds form are getting more developed and I can see small growths starting with a magnifying glass. Again, no clue, but everything seems to be saying I'm close to flipping them. I don't see any gentleman salad appearing so I've got females as advertised.

When I was in planning, I read of horror stories with first grows. I planted 3 seeds when one would have more than sufficed to cover attrition but I can't kill these things. Every clone has survived, so far. These things are getting to be like Tribbles, they're coming out of the wood work. I'm running out of room. I feel like the family the drunk stork delivered the giants' baby to.

So, I mainlined the GSC, manifolded the Royal Purple Kush and trained and pruned the Amnesia Haze like an X-mas tree. Calamity Jane is being trained in a star manifold manner, only option after the maiming. I've got plans for the other clones, I have singles, but I have twins and quadruplets to experiment on too. I have a control and a subject.

I'll throw up some pics, if anyone notices I'm doing something stupid don't be afraid to chime in. Like I said, I'm still a knucklehead when it comes to this and I'd appreciate any lessons offered.

 

[cannaruss]

I'm pulling up a seat. So far things look great

 

[Ennui]

I'm pulling up a seat. So far things look great

Thanks, good to hear.

 

[Ennui]

Let me recap my journey thus far.

I'm not a dum-dum by any means, but when it came to this I was pretty naïve. Plan A was to Veg in the living room and flower in a 2x2x4 tent. I bought the tent and first 600W LED, some nutes, pots and soil. I got a small fan and a combo meter and other do-dads. To be fair, I was pretty busy at the time. An aunt had a stroke and burned the house down when she knocked over a bulb. She didn't get burned, but the stroke didn't do her any favors, she's still in a facility. Long story short, my knucklehead cousin waited until the last minute to do something about the house so the time when her savings ran out and Medicaid took all her assets was close at hand. In effort to save money, he hired two guys in their 70's to tear down the old and build the new and promised he'd help with all the heavy lifting. Long story short, it's Nate to the rescue complete with an MRI report the size of a small dog, not to mention a recent skull fracture that was still fresh. The three of us tore down the old by hand and framed the new in 2 months.

Anyways, during this time the seeds arrived and I germinated them and it wasn't until then my common sense kicked in and I realized what a silly rabbit I was. For one, I live in a northern latitude and was more than halfway through any growing season so vegging in the parlor was out of the question. It was the first 'how stupid was I?' moment, but it made me re-think Plan A. Plan B was to rinse and repeat Plan A, but I'm glad I didn't leap before I looked, it gave time for the plants to get a little bigger and me to realize I was going to need a bigger boat. Out with Plan B, the Spruce Goose had a longer time of flight, on to Plan C. That was to up the tent size to 4x4x7 and copy/paste the rest of Plan A. I went with another 600W LED, also. I get it all set up and things are rolling when I notice that the 600W LEDs at the same height from canopy behaved differently in the two tents. I realized the reflection factor was influenced by proximity of the Mylar. I had read that the range PAR could be increased was up to 25%, now I knew what the 'up to' meant. On to Plan D, adding the 1200W LED to the 4x4.

That's where I stand today. In the 2x2, I have the light right at the top of the tent, no pulley hanger. I made two brackets from a coat hanger that allow just enough space for circulation and the top of the light is the coolest part of the tent to the touch. I adjust distance by raising/lowering the plant. In the 4x4, I have both LEDs above the plants, but the heights are different so each individual PAR level for each light is the same at the canopy and overlap 100%. The 1200W is about 40" above the canopy and the 600W about 30". When I flower, I'm thinking of using the 600W on one side and rotating the plants daily to give a little extra to the lower regions. I'm not certain yet.

Other than that, I've just made sure PAR was as close to or a little over 800 at the canopy and that I water with the correct Ph, between 6 and 6.5. At the beginning, I added nutes at a 1/8th strength of the seedling dose (this was after seedling, so about a month in) and the Amnesia Haze protested- too much N. I flushed her with 3 gallons of water and stopped all nutes completely until the last watering where I added the 0-.7-.6 in a 1/4 dose and they've been thriving.

I'm using filtered tap water that hits me at between 8 and 8.7 out of the spigot. I use apple cider vinegar to lower it to the desired range. One quarter teaspoon per gallon of water will lower the Ph 1 point and it's been rock solid consistent. I individually test each gallon before, during and after to make sure I get the same result across the board.

I've been training the plants pretty aggressively, I seemed to have jumped right into the deep end. Talk about Bare Naked Ladies. My philosophy is I want to keep giving small wounds over the entire life instead of one or two big ones right before I flower. If THC is a defense mechanism, I'd rather have a well trained, fit army that one that's taken a sucking chest wound right before battle. I mean you don't throw a house dog out in the cold, it hasn't had time to become acclimatized and grow an under coat. Every time I have them out I'm lopping a thing or three off. And two days later you can't even tell. Also, it seems it's slowed growth so the nodes are nice and close together. That's a good thing from what I've read, right? I thought the mainline was going to take quite some time to be ready, but it's just about ready and it's still immature. One question I do have is how many nodes should I let grow up once I stop going sideways with the mainline? I guess I could go as many as I want, but what would be a good starting point?

So, I'm kind of in a holding pattern until I flower. Everything's trained, I just need to add some supports as required when the time comes. I have no issues with vermin or deficiencies, almost seems too smooth a sailing to be honest, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop at any moment. Common sense says it's a weed that would grow in the crack of a sidewalk, but we're not in that crack, we're in a life support chamber indoors so I'm taking nothing for granted.

BTW, what's with the Jumping Bean cursor that inserts letters all over the place without rhyme or reason? I know I have a pretty good head injury, but I don't think I'm that delirious. Or is someone pulling my wye fronts?

 

[Ennui]

Few questions, if no one minds. I'll number them so if someone wants to answer just one it'll be easier.

1. As asked above, how many nodes do I want to allow to grow vertically before I swap it to flower? I'd like to stay as compact as possible, I have 3 plants to flower and can only have 10oz at any one time. I can make oil with some so I have an out if I get more.

2. As a follow up to Q1, how much can I expect to reap given the above pics? What's best case scenario? More input needed?

3. Will a bud site develop under every flag, even those not at a node? I see the flags all over the place, in between the nodes as well as at them. Like I said, they're just starting to mature so I'm not seeing it for myself yet. If so, I've got a lot of bud nipping to do pretty soon.

4. What humidity should I strive for through flower? Is it a lesser issue early, growing greater as the buds thicken and provide the environment for stuff to breed? I live near the ocean, so circulating room air isn't always an option, it can increase the humidity actually. Any recommends for the 4x4 as to a de-humidifier if it's required?

Newb questions, I know. But the dumbest question is the one that goes un-asked, in my book.

 

[Ennui]

Here's a few more pics of the setup.

This is the 4x4 with the two LEDs. The 1200 is in the back and higher. I have two wires that keep them in the same orientation. I have to cross-link them instead of the parallel deal here. Been meaning to do it for a few days, but the tent hasn't been empty. No way I'm playing with those without a clear drop zone.

Here's the 4" filter setup. I have it filtering both tents, the filter's on the exhaust. Air's drawn from this tent via two 6" lines, one of which is sleeved around the 4" return to the fan. Yes, I'm aware the sleeve cuts the flow of the 2nd 6".

This is one of the 6" ducts.

This is the 4" return that's sleeved in the 2x2. The other 600W LED is at the top of the tent. Circ fan also.

This is the 6" inlet in the 2x2.

This is the 4x4, that's about average temp and humidity. Circ fan in the corner, the clones are bottom right.

This is a better shot of the Amnesia Haze from above.

This is the 2x2.

This is Calamity Jane this AM. It's like the thermometer messed with her pituitary gland and the growth has shifted to warp.

I've got to prune the manifold again. That thing's off the hook as well. I grab some shots of the before and after.

 

[Ennui]

Went through some early pics to show the earlier stages.

First are the 4 seeds I planted of which one was a dud. A good thing, in hindsight.

The survivors.

At 4 weeks and 2 days. The germination order was RPK, AmHz and GSC. Growth rate, fastest to slowest is GSC, RPK and then AmHz. It's been consistent right through.

This is right after the 2nd clipping of the GSC mainline.

The RPK manifold at the same age.

And the AmHz in early training.

 

[Cheesesteak Enthusiast]

Subbing in, growing Amnesia Haze as well for a first grow so I am always interested to monitor someone else's work! I totally feel you on space. I ended up having to grab another tent as space was getting critical. Things are looking good so far! Once I'm off mobile I'll try to answer some questions you've asked the best I can.

 

[Ennui]

Subbing in, growing Amnesia Haze as well for a first grow so I am always interested to monitor someone else's work! I totally feel you on space. I ended up having to grab another tent as space was getting critical. Things are looking good so far! Once I'm off mobile I'll try to answer some questions you've asked the best I can.

Eggshellent! I look forward to your input.

 

[Ennui]

Ahhhhhhhhhh, just had a little medicine for the first time since I got lumped on the head and I'm feeling pretty good. I still can't remember if it happened on Saturday or Sunday (I think it was Sunday) but I finally allowed myself to sleep yesterday and a little today. Having experienced both head injuries and now seeing a marijuana grow first hand, there are a lot of similarities. The one at the forefront ATM is how both the human brain and marijuana plants heal/recover better/faster when it's quiet and the lights are out. Even if you can't sleep, there's less stimulation to cause migraines. When I start thinking nixing the trip to the ER might not have been the best idea is when I start to worry. I mean I fractured my skull in May and while that lawn ornament is still fresh, a 2x12 tries to move in next door and the last place I'm going is to hospital. LOL What doesn't kill you makes you stronger is one of the truest statements uttered from Mans' mouths. My past was good training, my horizons were broadened early on. It takes some, and then some again to even register on the Richter Scale. It can be a bad thing though if it makes you start walking the Earth like you've got a Superman cape. Learned that lesson early, too.

Enough of that nonsense, I want to enjoy this for a while, while I can. I got some Guava D from the dispensary the other day and I have to say it's one of my top 2, so far. I'm going to hunt down some of those eggs. Light Saber is the other, but you can't find seeds anywhere. I've tried it all from super to average and I have to say the THC % has nothing to do with the depth nor type of effect each strain has. I had a Sativa that had me cleaning kitchen cupboards at 2AM and then when I finished I considered chapping up the neighbor's door seeing if they wanted theirs straightened. There have been Indicas where a couple of puffs and next you know you wake up on the rug with Cheetos stuck to your face and carpet lint to your tongue. And THC %'s can be bogus if the loss of mass during de-carboxylation isn't factored in. A sample reported in the 30% range would have to be 1/3rd resin. Although do-able, it'd probably be a bear to consistently repeat. I don't look at anything outside of high teens to low twenties. The Guava D is like 21%, the buds are kind of fluffy, nothing to write home about, but the effect is stronger than 90% of others I've tried. And I'm going by before the latest nonsense when I was still half objective. With this I could be active, play my guitar for hours or just take a nap on the couch. It's got the right combo of body and head going on.

Like now, I can't decide if I want to drag the ladies out and make a vid for here, work on my theme song or go PMCS the insides of my eyelids for pinholes. I do know one thing, I want another toke. Hmmmmm, that was a double-edged sword. Felt good going down and holding, but upon exhale the top of my skull bone felt like it was trying to rip itself from my body. Maybe I should go have some Herman Munster bolts affixed to hold it together until the glue sets a little better.

Here's a question, can someone please explain to me why I see videos of people heating glass bowls to 700-800 degrees, putting extracts, etc. in, breathing in the incinerated compounds and then immediately exhaling? I'm fully open to it being something I'm completely missing, but it's opposite to my method where I try to keep combustion as 'cool' as possible so as to coax and not flash the compounds out and hold the hit in until my eyeballs are passing my eyelashes. Is there a principle behind it, or is it a Fonzie thing? Again, ready to be clued in. I mean I put cold water and ice cubes in my bong before a session. Should I be drinking warm beer instead of frosty cold? Again, the Brits do it so... .

Wow, proofreading, maybe I'm not as healed as I feel. Either that or suppressing the nonsense the past few days has allowed it to build to bursting pressure and spew forth with great abandon. Now I feel like I should make the video as return for enduring this chapter.

 

[SamSmith]

Everything looks good. As far as nodes, bud sites and plant size that is personal preference. Keep in mind though when you flip them to 12/12 they are going to stretch. The strains you have growing shouldn't go nuts but they can double in height over several weeks. My last grow the train wreck and cheese stretched about 3x in size while the GSC doubled.

Nutrients are always labled way too strong. Almost all the coco growers at least never exceed 1/2 strength. Indica's and hybrids can tolerate higher levels than sativa's as you are seeing.

Coincidence that we both have concussions. My accident was over a month ago and I still get daily headaches. Good luck with yours.

 

[SamSmith]

If you want a good example of plant training and solid growing check out ase's technique and results here

Ase's grow

 

[Ennui]

Everything looks good. As far as nodes, bud sites and plant size that is personal preference. Keep in mind though when you flip them to 12/12 they are going to stretch. The strains you have growing shouldn't go nuts but they can double in height over several weeks. My last grow the train wreck and cheese stretched about 3x in size while the GSC doubled.

Nutrients are always labled way too strong. Almost all the coco growers at least never exceed 1/2 strength. Indica's and hybrids can tolerate higher levels than sativa's as you are seeing.

Coincidence that we both have concussions. My accident was over a month ago and I still get daily headaches. Good luck with yours.

Thanks for that informative post, ticks all the boxes you'd like to see in a response. Good to hear that double is what I should see, fits plans to a tee.

Yeah, I'm in soil which already has 1-2 months supply of nutes mixed in. I'll never add nutes sooner than a month after the last transplant, given my experience so far. I might consider a slow drip at the center for a few ticks once in a while, as that would be the most depleted. Just enough to soak to the depth of the last pot and not run through.

Yeah, I've got one on top of another right now re; head injuries. I've got to stop talking about it, makes me sound like a baby even though incredulity and amazement that I'm still among the self-mobilating section of the population are the driving factors in bringing it up. Headache intervals are timed by the millisecond here.

Again, thanks for the input and break a leg with the grow.

 

[Mars Hydro]

Looks good so far!

 

[Cheesesteak Enthusiast]

Also, nice amps!

 

[Ennui]

Just wanted to clarify that I mention 600W and 1200W LEDs, but I know that's just what the marketing departments spin the specs to be and it's what it draws that is what's real.

 

[Ennui]

Ok, I found a good picture that lit my bulb as to FIMing. I see the light! Oh wait, those are just stars still circling my wagon train. In that vid, those are just women salad. What FIMing means is to stop the top two nodes when the internodal space is at its least, getting the four, by trying to guess where they are and taking a WAG at it with a sharp instrument of your choosing. Blunt ones seem to suffice, too. Basically, you still have two dominant colas with two sub-dominant colas that are a little higher up the trough than they would be otherwise, right?

I've got the understanding now, and the questions to go with it. Why would you guess? Why wouldn't you use a magnifying glass, if needed, to open things up a little and do a surgical strike? Is it crucial to leave a little foliage (baby fan leaves at this point) on each node? If so, is it a temporary measure to protect the growth sites or...? It's been a good day, I've picked up a lot that will help going forward from the forum, even if something just made me think.

BTW, what's with the wandering cursor? I just chased it around this post 12 times trying to put a t on the last 'the'. I had t's all over the place, don't know if I got them all and I tire of looking. Can I disable that special feature somewhere around here? I won't be needing that in future.

So here's the pic I found. It came up in Images when I Googled but didn't lead to a site so I can't give due credit to the originator. This has me thinking, I'm glad I have a few hours until the lights come on or every girl would be in line for a salon treatment right now. If I get surgical, I'm thinking I could FIM the mainline. :evilgenius: Where's Igor???

 

[Ennui]

Spent the past few hours cleaning, couldn't sleep. I even steam cleaned the carpet. Anyways, I had a lot of time to think of things I'd left out that were important. Once I started pondering, lighting slapped me in the mug as stupid obvious.

This isn't going into types or brands or opinions, I won't even mention what I use, just how I've used it thus far. As mentioned, I have two 600W and one 1200W blurple LEDs. They have Veg and Bloom switches to separate the spectrums according to what the different growth stages require. When I started, I had a single 600W in the 2x2 and was using just the Veg switch. I used just it for over a month, didn't know any better. I read multiple places how the different sides of the spectrum were used by the plants so it made sense at the time. One day, after I bought the second 600W and the larger tent and set it up the same, I started rethinking the whole thing. I had thought you weren't supposed to turn on the bloom switch until bloom. The dose of dog food started to wear off and I looked further into it. From then on, both switches are on.

Now, there are a lot better out there (I've been drooling over some of the links I've followed in people's sigs.) From spectrum tuning to drivers to heat sinks to efficiency, there's a lot out there that self evident is better than what I've got. Just the efficiency boost would make me upgrade. The main reason I didn't start off with the biggest and best is the same reason I wouldn't go out and spend $10,000 on a Gibson Les Paul for a kid who came home one day and said he wanted to start lessons, but the hidden motivation was the popular girl said she liked guitar players. Instead, you buy a Segova LP copy at a pawn shop and let the kid have at it. If he keeps at it with a crap guitar, it's not a faze, they're serious. Then I would buy the Gibson and recycle the pawn shop special for the next person. If I can grow something decent with these and find I enjoy growing, I'll feel I earned the upgrade. Don't get me wrong, if the kid walks around looking for things to stretch a string across and make some kind of noise he's getting the Gibson right off the bat.

Having said that, I can see the reason for the two switches. I think my early use of just the Veg kept the plants small and the nodes tight. I can see it being used for young seedlings or clones to take it easy on them, or as a method to keep things compact and others, so it doesn't meet the gimmick standard, IMHO. If you think about it, the combo of switches could be used to mimic seasons. Veg is spring, Both are summer and just Bloom is fall. I could be all wet, but it makes sense. The solo Veg could be used to acclimatize plants started under a different light source, also. I might switch to just Bloom the last week or two of flower to see what happens. On second thought, I should stay the current course, it's been too uncontrolled this time to gather data worth anything this go 'round. It'll have to wait for the next.

Best advice I could give at this point is no matter what you have, don't go by Wattage or lumens or anything except PAR. Every commercial LED ad I've seen has a PAR chart that tells you what PAR is at a given distance and the area of coverage. You want to get the largest part of the business end of the plant in the 800 range without anything sticking outside the cone or shower of light. Like sticking your appendages straight out in the shower, they'll never get wet. Again, you have to keep the cone in mind. Another thing is everything closer to the source of light is going to cast a larger shadow further down, just like sticking your head directly under the shower head is going to get it wet but block everything else, same goes here. Even though the plant can physically take a close light source, you may need it further away and stronger to get the required coverage. Reflective material affects PAR levels in direct proportion to the proximity of it. It can increase it up to 25% by my research and I see it. But just because the Mylar's close, the upper growth can be too close and block most of the effect. Wavelengths 'ricochet' off the walls, but there has to be enough room to get the ball rolling. It's a lot like sound waves. You make a noise in a large space and hear echos, the waves are bouncing from one surface to another, but getting weaker at every bounce. Because they can travel a longer distance between bounces they don't die as fast as the same thing in a small area where the waves decay faster due to absorption, etc. The location of the source applies same as your ears in relation to the source of the sound. IOW, the difference between standing in front of a loud speaker or it playing way over your head or off to one side of the space. Ear level will be loud and clear, high up or peripheral will be muddy by the time it gets to your ears and weaker.

What I'm getting at is don't be discouraged if you bought something and find out it isn't the best. You can make due with most things if you use them correctly, all the while saving up for the upgrades for the next grow. If the old isn't going to be used after the upgrade, donate it. I plan to find some local Vets who could use a start for my hand-me-downs when I get to that point.

Having said all of that, I can justify the premium some of these custom lights assemblers charge for the reasons listed above. I haven't done enough research to decide which way I'll jump, but there are definitely upgrades in my future. Not only do I want Les Pauls, I want qualified luthiers to set them up, not the kid behind the counter of the local Guitar Center. Even though the kid might be half-decent, the luthier is going to get everything perfect, go the extra mile because he has the experience and setup.

Here's something about kits. Even the best require that you assemble them. If you're not honest with yourself as to your skill set you could end up with scrap faster than you can blink. If you make a mistake and ruin a component, it's on your dime. The little extra buying pre-assembled can end up being a savings at the end of the day. It's like buying the parts for a computer and assembling it. That isn't the end, now you have to install everything and if you over clock, try to find the best settings for your use and have no one to turn to for support. If you buy one from a company that specializes in custom systems for that use, it comes all set and ready to go. Everything's tested to be rock solid. If issues arise you have a life line. I can't count the horror stories of system builds on the music forums alone. From gathering mis-matched parts to damage during assembly to not knowing what to do once it's together, I've seen a lot of unhappy campers who wish they were a little more honest with themselves in the planning stage. Again, not saying do it or don't, just giving food for thought.

I'll stop there, I have to go get soil this AM and have a marathon day in the garden planned to finally catch up. I'll film when I prune the manifold later today and maybe some of the other stuff and post it.

 

[SamSmith]

Just wanted to clarify that I mention 600W and 1200W LEDs, but I know that's just what the marketing departments spin the specs to be and it's what it draws that is what's real.

The wattage claims by the cheaper Chinese suppliers is usually a total of what the chips are capable of (which most of the power supplies are set to half or a little better). The actual draw at the wall a few list but a lot don't. Par and and the spread are as you mentioned what tells the story.

I have mulled over the higher end LED stuff but the main unit that I have (Mars Epistar 320) has done me well so far as they have for others. I have also looked at CMH heavily because if anything happens to a light I can go get the components to fix it in minutes from my house and it's way less expensive. A few guys, Haystack in particular, has done quite well with them. I just can't seem to justify an upgrade at this time because I end with way more product than I need now. Spending more on lights than weed I would use in a year is just not in the cards right now.

 

[Ennui]

The wattage claims by the cheaper Chinese suppliers is usually a total of what the chips are capable of (which most of the power supplies are set to half or a little better). The actual draw at the wall a few list but a lot don't. Par and and the spread are as you mentioned what tells the story.

I have mulled over the higher end LED stuff but the main unit that I have (Mars Epistar 320) has done me well so far as they have for others. I have also looked at CMH heavily because if anything happens to a light I can go get the components to fix it in minutes from my house and it's way less expensive. A few guys, Haystack in particular, has done quite well with them. I just can't seem to justify an upgrade at this time because I end with way more product than I need now. Spending more on lights than weed I would use in a year is just not in the cards right now.

Yeah, my 600W advertises 10W chips but it draws like 180?, IIRC. That might even be high. No matter what, due to heat syncs and drivers, I've read they are more like 1 to 1.5 Watts per chip. I mean an incandescent bulb will make a plant do something, not much, but something if it's started from seed that way. It might only have enough energy to stretch a couple of inches towards the light before it flops over, but it will give it the old college try. So I agree with you that used correctly, you can get a decent grow out of today's offerings, but using it correctly seems hard for some to figure. They hear x Watts will cover y area and to get it as close to the plant without physically burning it and away they go. No consideration as to the whys of anything, just what they heard about it as applied to a completely different scenario. I say they, but I count myself among the naively innocent Newbs. I did research and understood the only important number was PAR and that the 600W I bought would cover it. My err was to think the same 600W would work in the 4x4. TBF, I was building a house at the time, but I should have caught it.

Having said that, I do realize the advantages of the higher end equipment and what it brings to the table. The 'commercial' light is engineered to grow a lot of different plants that may not have the specific requirements MJ does. They just jumped on the MJ bandwagon to take advantage of the trend. I mean some may be just that much different that they provide a little more of something good than the next but it still wasn't engineered for this specific crop. There are more reasons, I've listed them earlier.

Plus, my initial purchases won't go to waste if I upgrade, I'll donate them to a local Vet. But I'm happy with what I have and the results I'm getting so far so I could stick with this just as easy.