Quick flush?

Decided to add a bit juice back in the water tank and not to flush. Trics are not at amber stage yet, still half milky, half clear

IMG_20211129_171403.jpg


IMG_20211129_171351.jpg
 
bobrown14 said:
Here's how it works and its not temporary waiting for water or we would never have any cations/nutrients in soil because rain water (no charge) would wash them all away. We know that doesn't happen and here's why:



"The clay mineral and organic matter components of soil have negatively charged sites on their surfaces which adsorb and hold positively charged ions (cations) by electrostatic force."

How does that electrostatic force get removed?? This is the question in hand.

Here is the answer with a picture so that everyone understands:

"in the Cation Exchange process the plant’s roots absorb many of the nutrients essential for growth. The process works through the secretion of exudates by the root hairs which contain positively charged hydrogen ions. The hydrogen ions are effectively “traded” (DIFFUSION) by the plant for the positively charged cations of calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium and trace elements. The plant absorbs 70% of the cations it needs through the cation exchange process..."

I don't make this stuff up I just read the science and make suggestions based on the science. Flushing is BS. aka Bro Science.

pic.jpg


Scientific articles for anyone that cares to read and understand:

Cations and Cation Exchange Capacity | Fact Sheets | soilquality.org.au

Plant Feeding By Cation Exchange

More in depth "sciency" version:

AY-238

And some more do you want some more cause there's a LOT more on it:

Soil Management



We should have a discussion on how the mechanism of Diffusion works in relation to root exudate.

Then we will realize how detrimental adding WAY too much water to to the soil solution in the Rhizosphere and the damage done to micro-organisms that are helping with the Diffusion process.
Click to expand...
you have all sorts of studies and charts having to do with soil quality in a field, but NONE of what you present here has anything at all to do with feeding in a closed container. Soil in a field does not work the same way as a closed container and even if your typical farmer was stupid enough to use chelated nutes, the salt would not build up... as you said, it would be washed away in the rain. The exchange process in our grow rooms acts as you described, but with additional salt buildup added to your equation which gets trapped in the closed container, which your SCIENCE fails to even take into account because this does not happen to farmers out in the field. Apples and Oranges Bo... sorry. None of the articles you have given disprove what I have said above. Salt buildup is a big big deal and growing in a closed container is totally different than growing in a field where none of your "sciency" discussions have anything to do with what we are talking about here. Find a discussion on indoor closed container growing that backs you up, and you will have me shut down cold and I will have to admit that you are right. Barring that, the opposite sure appears to be true.
 
Its the same thing... soil is soil in a container or in a field.

You say you're an organic grower yet you stick to words like SALTS etc and talk about them like your adding them to a cup of water and and they bind with h2o and you pour them away. Yeah that works in a cup of water, it does not work in soil. You aren't reading the science I've offered to you.

Even if you add those salts to water then water into the soil those salts get adsorbed by soil particles by chemistry and electrostatic force. Water can not break those chemical bonds and you're doing irreversible harm to your micro-organisms in the root zone AND changing the pH of the soil solution in the root zone. This is bad practice. Give it up and take a leap of faith and you will be ok.

I'll post the diagram again and if you look at the diagram your so called "salts" are right there in diagram stuck to soil particles until the root exudate and microbes release the chemical bond. That release mechanism is called DIFFUSION - look it up.

Here's the diagram again and please note at the top of the soil there's a little circle with your Na+ (salts) attached/bonded chemically to colloids which are part of your soil. It is what it is - you can talk something else but it wont change the facts.

Here take a look please: Na+ VVVVVV

pic-jpg.2450062

Na+ = Sodium and its a cation with 1 positive charge, its attached to soil particles. You can pour it in with your water and it will bond with the soil particles until it gets diffused by root exudate and/or microbes. This is just how it works. Overwatering doesn't make things better for a plant it makes them worse by creating an anerobic soil solution that kills off microbes and fungi and drowns the fine root hairs that are the key to plant/soil health.

Ive shown you the science, explained the science, gave you many scientific studies, I've even shown you diagrams of how this works over the years you've been promoting this. That and I'm in no-till containers in organic soil same soil for YEARS. I've never flushed.

I read your arguments on this and they just don't stand up to the science and real world plant life.

There are 2 paths to soil/plant health.

Mineralization of soil
or
Humus+ tilth = living soil

Mineralization is what "traditional" farmers do when they spread minerals (fertilizers) on the soil in hopes of getting better yields. It's not sustainable its not good for anything but your wallet... and certainly not good for the microbes that help feed the plants.
 
Frazer said:
Decided to add a bit juice back in the water tank and not to flush. Trics are not at amber stage yet, still half milky, half clear

IMG_20211129_171403.jpg


IMG_20211129_171351.jpg
Click to expand...
Your plant is in Senescence which is perfectly normal. Those colors are a sign your plant is healthy and thriving in a living soil. The green is from photosynthesis and the plant is using up that stored energy to grow flowers.

Let then fall of naturally and enjoy a bountiful harvest.

Some folks think their plants should stay green all the way to harvest.... thats a genetic trait and doesn't indicate any deficiencies.


"Senescence is a developmental process which in annual crop plants overlaps with the reproductive phase."

The key take away here is "the productive phase" and why we are here. We are here for the flowers and they are what the productive phase is all about.
 
bobrown14 said:
Your plant is in Senescence which is perfectly normal. Those colors are a sign your plant is healthy and thriving in a living soil. The green is from photosynthesis and the plant is using up that stored energy to grow flowers.

Let then fall of naturally and enjoy a bountiful harvest.

Some folks think their plants should stay green all the way to harvest.... thats a genetic trait and doesn't indicate any deficiencies.


"Senescence is a developmental process which in annual crop plants overlaps with the reproductive phase."

The key take away here is "the productive phase" and why we are here. We are here for the flowers and they are what the productive phase is all about.
Click to expand...
Cheers man, all info welcome ✌️
 
Phytoplankton said:
It all depends on when the pistils turn brown and you start seeing some amber trichromes. The plant will speak to you.
Click to expand...
Yes, it will!!! And right now she is saying

:morenutes::morenutes::morenutes:
 
bobrown14 said:
Its the same thing... soil is soil in a container or in a field.

You say you're an organic grower yet you stick to words like SALTS etc and talk about them like your adding them to a cup of water and and they bind with h2o and you pour them away. Yeah that works in a cup of water, it does not work in soil. You aren't reading the science I've offered to you.

Even if you add those salts to water then water into the soil those salts get adsorbed by soil particles by chemistry and electrostatic force. Water can not break those chemical bonds and you're doing irreversible harm to your micro-organisms in the root zone AND changing the pH of the soil solution in the root zone. This is bad practice. Give it up and take a leap of faith and you will be ok.

I'll post the diagram again and if you look at the diagram your so called "salts" are right there in diagram stuck to soil particles until the root exudate and microbes release the chemical bond. That release mechanism is called DIFFUSION - look it up.

Here's the diagram again and please note at the top of the soil t
bobrown14 said:
That release mechanism is called DIFFUSION
Click to expand...

here's a little circle with your Na+ (salts) attached/bonded chemically to colloids which are part of your soil. It is what it is - you can talk something else but it wont change the facts.

Here take a look please: Na+ VVVVVV

pic-jpg.2450062

Na+ = Sodium and its a cation with 1 positive charge, its attached to soil particles. You can pour it in with your water and it will bond with the soil particles until it gets diffused by root exudate and/or microbes. This is just how it works. Overwatering doesn't make things better for a plant it makes them worse by creating an anerobic soil solution that kills off microbes and fungi and drowns the fine root hairs that are the key to plant/soil health.

Ive shown you the science, explained the science, gave you many scientific studies, I've even shown you diagrams of how this works over the years you've been promoting this. That and I'm in no-till containers in organic soil same soil for YEARS. I've never flushed.

I read your arguments on this and they just don't stand up to the science and real world plant life.

There are 2 paths to soil/plant health.

Mineralization of soil
or
Humus+ tilth = living soil

Mineralization is what "traditional" farmers do when they spread minerals (fertilizers) on the soil in hopes of getting better yields. It's not sustainable its not good for anything but your wallet... and certainly not good for the microbes that help feed the plants.
Click to expand...
fine, believe what you like... I really don't care. But just for fun and for the other folks trying to learn something from this silliness, lets dissect this latest contribution from your keyboard.

First, you talk of diffusion. You make a big deal of that word when it only means to disperse. Salt can be sent elsewhere, dispersed or diffused from the CEC by dissolving it in water. Sorry, but you got to prove a statement that seems to say that the plants use exudates and microbes to move it up into the plant. Plants use sodium? In a field salt either disburses into the surrounding soil, or dissolves with the rain to move away from the roots. In a container, it just sits there, until you dissolve it and move it away with a flush. There is no other mechanism in a closed container to make this salt go away. Again, you talk of happenings in an open field, not in a closed container. You are wrong in your assumption that your science is speaking to us, growing in tents.

You don't even grow with synthetic nutes, so you have no practical experience in how the salt builds up and locks out nutrients. Fox Farms is my go to example. They are a commercial firm with many scientists who developed their system of growing, and they know that they have to flush periodically. If you don't flush in one of their grows, you will grow shitty looking plants. So how come it is so important to them that they have put flushing as mandatory steps in their feeding chart? They must not have talked to you first. lol

Lastly, you wander off into the weeds and start talking about mineralization of the soil and humus and again bring traditional farmers into your rambling. Exactly what point did all this make about flushing?? I think maybe this was you trying to sound important and knowledgeable, but it simply made me shake my head in amazement that you would end your comments on this non point. Hopefully, you are not convincing anyone that you really know what you are talking about. Thank you by the way, I have gotten 3 new followers just since we started this conversation.

Yes your cute diagram shows salt being held by the CEC. You used to argue with me that this didnt even happen, and I can't seem to get it into your head that in a closed container (not out in the field or in an organic garden) the salt will build up and eventually take up all of the slots in the CEC.

So you never flush. Big deal... you grow in Living Soil and never use an EDTA salt chelated nute. You don't have salt building up, yet, you use your grow, and mine incredibly, as an example why one should never flush. This is not even a valid argument, apples and oranges and all that. You are being disingenuous.

Then you take an illegal leap in logic and suddenly call flushing, overwatering, and go into all the woes of overwatering, just to throw more obfuscation into this discussion. Flushing is not overwatering and will not go anaerobic (nice sciency word there :) ) or kill any root hairs or microbes or fungi. Again, not a valid argument or defence for your side of this discussion... not even close.
 
Emilya said:
fine, believe what you like... I really don't care. But just for fun and for the other folks trying to learn something from this silliness, lets dissect this latest contribution from your keyboard.

First, you talk of diffusion. You make a big deal of that word when it only means to disperse. Salt can be sent elsewhere, dispersed or diffused from the CEC by dissolving it in water. Sorry, but you got to prove a statement that seems to say that the plants use exudates and microbes to move it up into the plant. Plants use sodium? In a field salt either disburses into the surrounding soil, or dissolves with the rain to move away from the roots. In a container, it just sits there, until you dissolve it and move it away with a flush. There is no other mechanism in a closed container to make this salt go away. Again, you talk of happenings in an open field, not in a closed container. You are wrong in your assumption that your science is speaking to us, growing in tents.

You don't even grow with synthetic nutes, so you have no practical experience in how the salt builds up and locks out nutrients. Fox Farms is my go to example. The are a commercial firm with many scientists who developed their system of growing, and they know that they have to flush periodically. If you don't flush in one of their grows, you will grow shitty looking plants. So how come it is so important to them that they have put flushing as mandatory steps in their feeding chart? They must not have talked to you first. lol

Lastly, you wander off into the weeds and start talking about mineralization of the soil and humus and again bring traditional farmers into your rambling. Exactly what point did all this make about flushing?? I think maybe this was you trying to sound important and knowledgeable, but it simply made me shake my head in amazement that you would end your comments on this non point. Hopefully, you are not convincing anyone that you really know what you are talking about. Thank you by the way, I have gotten 3 new followers just since we started this conversation.

Yes your cute diagram shows salt being held by the CEC. You used to argue with me that this didnt even happen, and I can't seem to get it into your head that in a closed container (not out in the field or in an organic garden) the salt will build up and eventually take up all of the slots in the CEC.

So you never flush. Big deal... you grow in Living Soil and never use an EDTA salt chelated nute. You don't have salt building up, yet, you use your grow, and mine incredibly, as an example why one should never flush. This is not even a valid argument, apples and oranges and all that. You are being disingenuous.

Then you take an illegal leap in logic and suddenly call flushing, overwatering, and go into all the woes of overwatering, just to throw more obfuscation into this discussion. Flushing is not overwatering and will not go anaerobic (nice sciency word there :) ) or kill any root hairs or microbes or fungi. Again, not a valid argument or defence for your side of this discussion... not even close.
Click to expand...
How does one know if salts are building up? I have reused soil over and over and over yet I don't see a difference from one grow to the next unless I run new genetics....even when using Fox Farms for nutrients. I no longer use the brand as I grow in soil, coco, hydro and find it's easier on me to use 1 brand for all 3 mediums. I know I could use Fox Farm for hydroponic grows but I personally don't like how it turns my root zones a dyed brown color. If you are watering correctly with run off, is a flush even actually needed since you hypothetically are flushing it little by little with each watering?
 
DiamondLevelGrower said:
How does one know if salts are building up? I have reused soil over and over and over yet I don't see a difference from one grow to the next unless I run new genetics....even when using Fox Farms for nutrients. I no longer use the brand as I grow in soil, coco, hydro and find it's easier on me to use 1 brand for all 3 mediums. I know I could use Fox Farm for hydroponic grows but I personally don't like how it turns my root zones a dyed brown color. If you are watering correctly with run off, is a flush even actually needed since you hypothetically are flushing it little by little with each watering?
Click to expand...
If you are using synthetic nutes, salts are building up. When you start seeing deficiencies that you can't explain, salt lockout should always be the first suspicion in these sorts of grows. Let's say that you are running to 20% runoff, and almost no one does that unless they are actually trying to do a mini flush each time they water. It will take 5 waterings to get to 100% of the container size, or 1/3 of a regular actually trying to do it right, flush. This means that with each watering you are doing 1/15th of an actual full flush, not 20%. No, it is hardly enough to do the job, not to mention that at each watering you are adding more nutes which will cause more salts.
 
You can often actually see the salt build up on a fabric pot. It looks like white frost on the outside of the pot. It happens in any potted plant,. In one of my lives I was the head gardener at a college. After a while even clay pots will have a salt buildup on them. Growing in pots is much different that growing in outdoor soils.
 
Emilya said:
fine, believe what you like... I really don't care. But just for fun and for the other folks trying to learn something from this silliness, lets dissect this latest contribution from your keyboard.

First, you talk of diffusion. You make a big deal of that word when it only means to disperse. Salt can be sent elsewhere, dispersed or diffused from the CEC by dissolving it in water. Sorry, but you got to prove a statement that seems to say that the plants use exudates and microbes to move it up into the plant. Plants use sodium? In a field salt either disburses into the surrounding soil, or dissolves with the rain to move away from the roots. In a container, it just sits there, until you dissolve it and move it away with a flush. There is no other mechanism in a closed container to make this salt go away. Again, you talk of happenings in an open field, not in a closed container. You are wrong in your assumption that your science is speaking to us, growing in tents.

You don't even grow with synthetic nutes, so you have no practical experience in how the salt builds up and locks out nutrients. Fox Farms is my go to example. They are a commercial firm with many scientists who developed their system of growing, and they know that they have to flush periodically. If you don't flush in one of their grows, you will grow shitty looking plants. So how come it is so important to them that they have put flushing as mandatory steps in their feeding chart? They must not have talked to you first. lol

Lastly, you wander off into the weeds and start talking about mineralization of the soil and humus and again bring traditional farmers into your rambling. Exactly what point did all this make about flushing?? I think maybe this was you trying to sound important and knowledgeable, but it simply made me shake my head in amazement that you would end your comments on this non point. Hopefully, you are not convincing anyone that you really know what you are talking about. Thank you by the way, I have gotten 3 new followers just since we started this conversation.

Yes your cute diagram shows salt being held by the CEC. You used to argue with me that this didnt even happen, and I can't seem to get it into your head that in a closed container (not out in the field or in an organic garden) the salt will build up and eventually take up all of the slots in the CEC.

So you never flush. Big deal... you grow in Living Soil and never use an EDTA salt chelated nute. You don't have salt building up, yet, you use your grow, and mine incredibly, as an example why one should never flush. This is not even a valid argument, apples and oranges and all that. You are being disingenuous.

Then you take an illegal leap in logic and suddenly call flushing, overwatering, and go into all the woes of overwatering, just to throw more obfuscation into this discussion. Flushing is not overwatering and will not go anaerobic (nice sciency word there :) ) or kill any root hairs or microbes or fungi. Again, not a valid argument or defence for your side of this discussion... not even close.
Click to expand...


Soil CEC is the measured ability of soil to hold on to cations via electrostatic force.

Water has no electrostatic force. So it cannot attract cations attached to soil particles (CEC). Only roots via root exudate and microbes can do this.

Here's a diagram that shows this process, notice they are not showing water doing anything. Roots take in water, roots diffuse nutrients via root exudate and microbes and take the nutrients in along with water.

You are right about the amount of salts in the soil has a direct impact on the microbes/fungi/root health.

My advice here is dont add salts. Your salts are your fertilizers and are a band-aid at best to the real issue that is your soil mix. Mix a proper soil amend with soil organic matter you dont need salts (fertilizers).

As soon as you pour your minerals dissolved in water into soil, those nutrients attach themselves to the soil organic mater/clay particles and the chemistry/biology/physics takes over.

I'm not making this stuff up its the science of plants and soil.


Na+ = your salts (fertilizer) - look at the diagram for your Na+ its right there. Its not my diagram:


pic-jpg.2450062



Now what you're really talking about with salts in soil is soil salinity. This comes directly from over-fertilization in almost all cases.

Soil scientists are starting to study how fertilizer interacts with microbes and fungi that we know in turn feed plants and those plants in turn feed animals and people.
Poor soil = poor plant health = poor animal health = poor human health. We have been seeing this process going on. Example in the 50s after we started fertilizing feed stock we had a breakout of mad cow disease. It was huge... and the result of poor nutrition of feed stock. We traded soil organic matter/soil tilth for mineralization (fertilizer).

Its not sustainable nor is it healthy.

Add your fertilizer to your soil, grow plants lacking in nutrition and eat and smoke what you will. We can do much better and we will. All we have to do is look around at people. You can see the state of health walking down the street.

Put down your bags/bottles of fertilizers and pick up a shovel and make some compost or go buy some and add that to your soil instead of salts. That's organic farming and all you and your plants need.

If you really want to understand the science of salts, water and soil, here's a good read.

@Emilya this is some science on watering - highly suggest you read to the end. You will find a few nuggets in there as I did on watering and its affect on microbes/fungi.

Influence of salinity and water content on soil microorganisms

Nugget of truth:

"Water is not only an essential transport medium for substrates, it is also an important participant in hydrolysis processes. Therefore soil water content controls microbial activity and is a major factor that determines the rates of mineralization .

However, excess soil water content results in limited O2 diffusion because O2 diffusion in water is much lower (about 104 times) than in air which will reduce the activity of aerobic microorganisms, but could increase the activities of anaerobes. Lack of water reduces microbial activity and growth, C and N mineralization and shifts microbial community structure."

Flush away.... the microbes and fungi then add in your fertilizer cause your plants health is suffering - its a loose loose situation.
 
bobrown14 said:
its a loose loose situation.
Click to expand...
Whatever you say Bo. I am sure you convinced everyone with that last! Enjoy the accolades, you earned it!
 

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