Stunted growth - a repeating problem I can not solve

[Emilya Green]

I'm already on that path. The issue with runoff I have is that I cant drain it. I was planning to put pot elevators but now I think I should just change the aluminum saucers with plastic and skip the elevators. If I am to wait for the pot to dry well, next watering will drain though the cracks and if I have elevators, water will sit in the saucer. I prefer to have runoff in the saucer that can be absorbed back into the pot. I cant afford to empty the saucers due to the number of plants and physical access I have. I appreciate that you confirm Emily's point, and yes, I will be watering more and less often from now on.

I'm definitely willing to make an experiment with SIPs, it looks like a smart solution. Would be great if you share more information on how you manage watering with them in the different stages.

I am starting some brand new seedlings, directly into 7 gallon cloth containers in a 17 gallon SIP setup. The SIP is keeping the soil moist and was pre-moistened before transplanting the new seedlings into the pot. I doubt that I will ever have to water again in this setup, not till the plants are at least a couple of weeks into their growth. Follow along at: CoffeeShopSeeds Sponsored Grow: Emmie’s Huge 1 Month Interval Constant Harvest
Where I have landed you in the thread about 10 months in, as I am building these new SIPs for new seedlings.

 

[plan500]

You have not completely grasped what I was trying to tell you. When I mention watering to runoff, I mean that the very first drip that you see come out of the bottom, you STOP. There is absolutely no need to produce a large amount of runoff, and what you do produce should be able to evaporate before the next day.

I don't care how much you water with to get to that point, it should all be able to stay in the medium... so runoff should not be an issue for you. And yes, a 5 gallon container should be able to take about a gallon of water before that happens, and this amount will change as the roots get stronger.

And yes, the first time you do this, it might very well take a week or longer for the plant to use all that water, especially with the condition your roots appear to be in. Why would this cause other problems? Please don't think that the plants can't go a week or 10 days without your intervention... they certainly can. You say this has been going on for a while now, and you can see that it happens to every plant in your garden. That points to something basic that you are doing wrong, and I am 99% sure that your over and under watering is the entire problem.

Thanks for the clarification. I will be more confident in watering more and waiting more. I was confused that those dry/wet cycles should be relatively short and was considering 4-5 days wait a potential overwatering. Now I have changed my perception completely. Thank you!

 

[CaptainLucky]

You have made a very good observation. Indeed the pot in the pictures has been just watered with 0.5L prior to taking the picture and it appears that only the top 1/3 is actually moist. I've been too scared to overwater and try and water every 48h precisely and eventually have underwatered.

I do remind myself of the weight feel of dry and soaked pot. But now that I am about to change my watering method completely, it would be much easier to tell them apart. Thank you for your input, I never though that I would actually have people get into my specific situation and be so relevant.

Thanks!

Some people use bathroom scales. CL

 

[Azimuth]

I'm definitely willing to make an experiment with SIPs, it looks like a smart solution. Would be great if you share more information on how you manage watering with them in the different stages.

Happy to answer any questions, but much of the back and forth on design and usage have been in @Buds Buddy 's SIPity Do Da thread. There are several of us growing with them and we each describe various aspects in our own threads as well. Emilya has given you one of her threads above.

Watering can be as simple of filling the reservoir daily from about two weeks in thru to harvest. And, there is an overflow hole so you literally can't overfill it. Not much to it, actually. And watering takes seconds. However long it takes to pour the water into the fill tube.

 

[JoetheChro]

Your veg plants look pretty healthy, but your flowering plants look like they have run out of gas. Your roots don't look like they are suffering from root rot although what you describe are classic symptoms of overwatering.

I'm not familiar with your nutes, but I assume you are feeding according to the manufacturer's instructions?


This is a classic overwatering symptom, though clawing and dark green leaves can also be too much nitrogen.


Watering should be done when the pot feels unusually, and surprisingly light, not on a schedule.


No. Technically, you can't overwater a plant. We call it that but what is really going on is a lack of oxygen to the roots. In veg in a traditional pot, you should thoroughly water the pot to saturation and then let it dry out before watering again.


Your roots are not as thick as one would expect to see on those size plants. I would suggest either learning to water correctly with a wet/dry cycle, or skip that learning curve altogether and join a few of us that have switched over to SIPs (sub irrigated planters). They eliminate the watering issue altogether by providing a reservoir below the plant, but also provide constant air to the roots eliminating what we call overwatering but is really a lack of O2.

Another alternative is to use @Bill284 's method of adding perlite layers to your standard mix to help with drainage.

It’s becoming a recurring theme this week Azi as soon as I see the pics I thought overwatering. Same as mine last Friday

10 years ago was all about nute burn. 10 years before that light burn.

I reckon it’s always been over watering

 

[Azimuth]

It’s becoming a recurring theme this week Azi as soon as I see the pics I thought overwatering. Same as mine last Friday

10 years ago was all about nute burn. 10 years before that light burn.

I reckon it’s always been over watering

It's definitely the most common issue facing growers, especially new growers. Ask me how I can recognize the symptoms so quickly.

 

[plan500]

Just wanted to shared the result of following your advices. Only two slow waterings with a liter, 3 days apart and plants started growing and showing great improvement. I knew I was missing somethings basic, but never thought that watering will be the key here. Next, I will slow water till a little runoff and keep that as a standard for more developed plants.

I am sending a few pics from the veg room. Flower room also has improvement, but the damage is done there and I will look forward to the next batch.

I really appreciate everyone's input and want to thank you all for the support. Hope this information helps others too!

PS. I have yet to change my saucers, punch more holes in the pots and add extra perlite to my next batch.

 

[Azimuth]

Wow, those plants look great!

 

[Mountainman80]

Dear fellow growers,

I need your help to figure out a problem with my plants that has been following me for the last 6 grows. I am running a mid-sized operation and It is a repeating problem that I just can’t seem to understand and resolve.

It all goes normal with the seedlings, they are growing well with a light color of the leaves and no visible problems. However, as I approach week 3 of Veg the leaves start to get a darker shade. I have tried to withhold any feeding and wait for them to get lighter but they never do. They never get light but rather darker and when I eventually feed them only the new growth/ top become a bit lighter. I have tried different feeding approaches(more/less) both with the young plants and also later in veg but the result is always the same - dark droopy leaves, clawing and generally a very stunted growth. I have top dressed with worm castings, made teas with just a temporary effect.

Recently I made an observation that the plants don’t develop a very good root system (yes, I could have checked this earlier) . In early veg roots are white, but not that thick or dense. After repot the new roots also appear white. The pictures show the plants in their week 8 of VEG, that is 4 weeks after repotting and the roots don’t seem to be strong or dense. You can also see that the plants are very small for 8 weeks growing.

Later in bloom the roots get brownish and plants start to get yellow with dying leaver starting from week 4 until the end. Plans don’t handle strong light and don’t drink as much. Harvests are poor and generally low quality.

I have posted pictures of a current batch in VEG and in BLOOM. You can see that the roots of both batches are not right. Is this root rot?
I am beginning to think that the problem is not caused by feeding schedule or environment but rather watering and lack of oxygen. I water every other day and generally have a good observation how much they drink every 48h. However, I might have overwatered on repot and didn’t water them for 5-6 days until they got light. Could that single overwatering start a root rot? Also, would you suggest to put pot elevators and additional perlite to the light mix?

Any suggestions and comments with regards to prevention and current actions are welcomed. I really need your help as this has been happening the last one year and I am running out of ideas and resources.


Environment: Sealed room, CO2 enriched (more info in the attached table)
Media: Plagron Lightmix (preloaded with mineral nutrients for 1-2 weeks at most)
Media pH: 5.8-6.4 (measured with a BlueLab multimedia probe.)
Nutes: Plagron Alga Grow/Bloom (100% organic, seaweed based) (find attached a veg feeding schedule)
Pots: ½ gallon (2L) for the first 3-4 weeks then repot into 2.5 gallon (10L)
VEG/BLOOM: 8 weeks veg and 9 weeks bloom
Lights room1: Chinese LED bar lights with Samsung LH281H chips (cold, warm and UV)
Lights room2: Quantum boards (fotops 800) with Samsung LM301B 3500/4000K
Light schedule VEG: 18/6
Water source: ph 7-8, 60 ppm, filtered through a chlorine filter
Seeds: Skunk XL from Royal Queen Seeds.

Gorgeous plants

 

[Jonny5]

I have never grown auto before... But I will tell you that when when growing photos you should never pinch your plants below the 4th node.maybe your problem is shock,, Judging by your pics you have topped your young’uns to early. It is crucial to let the plant develop more foliage to promote a robust root structure , bigger roots-bigger fruits, again I say shock is your problem, and it can last a lifetime.so the next grow you do DO NOT “”pinch/Top/Fem, so early.. develop your roots first, You will see a difference

 

[plan500]

I have never grown auto before... But I will tell you that when when growing photos you should never pinch your plants below the 4th node.maybe your problem is shock,, Judging by your pics you have topped your young’uns to early. It is crucial to let the plant develop more foliage to promote a robust root structure , bigger roots-bigger fruits, again I say shock is your problem, and it can last a lifetime.so the next grow you do DO NOT “”pinch/Top/Fem, so early.. develop your roots first, You will see a difference

Those are not Autoflower seeds.

 

[Jonny5]

All the more likely then that its shock, when topped to early You send a message to the plant that it is under attack ..while the plant was trying to develop a healthy root system ,, You introduced what you think is LST but instead you have actually introduced HST ,, the plant hormone has now shifted from root production to producing new veg, stunting overall plant production,, That is to say that the small root zone it had struggles to promote new growth but is lacking the strength to do so..putting its normal growth days or even weeks behind..They look like recovery has been successful, but it takes time doesn’t it ( stunted growth)

 

[Azimuth]

@Jonny5, I often top at the second node, although that's after the 5th is developing. So I guess you're suggesting it's more about root growth than the node itself.

When is it that you do consider topping an LST, or maybe better asked, at what stage of node or root growth do you consider to be the earliest you'd top?

 

[Jonny5]

I personally wait for six - eight and then depending on how I’m going to train,, cut back to 4-6

 

[plan500]

Things are going amazingly well. Plants got lighter color, started growing and generally look healthy. This is a picture a day after I watered with 1.6L, completely soaking the plant to little runoff. Before I would consider this overwatering but now I realize I've been torturing those plants with by soaking 50% of the soil and get all kinds of issues. I also water in 2-3 stages now, so that the absorption is more balanced.

 

[JoetheChro]

I’ve forgot why this thread is called stunted growth?

Wow. They look amazing P

 

[KJM]

You have not completely grasped what I was trying to tell you. When I mention watering to runoff, I mean that the very first drip that you see come out of the bottom, you STOP. There is absolutely no need to produce a large amount of runoff, and what you do produce should be able to evaporate before the next day.

I don't care how much you water with to get to that point, it should all be able to stay in the medium... so runoff should not be an issue for you. And yes, a 5 gallon container should be able to take about a gallon of water before that happens, and this amount will change as the roots get stronger.

And yes, the first time you do this, it might very well take a week or longer for the plant to use all that water, especially with the condition your roots appear to be in. Why would this cause other problems? Please don't think that the plants can't go a week or 10 days without your intervention... they certainly can. You say this has been going on for a while now, and you can see that it happens to every plant in your garden. That points to something basic that you are doing wrong, and I am 99% sure that your over and under watering is the entire problem.

I would add that if the soil is dry, when you water sometimes the water can just run down between the side of the pot and soil and then run out the bottom. This might give the impression of enough water when the actual middle of the soil is still dry. Try to water at the base of the plant slowly to keep it running to the sides of the pot and down thru the soil rather then down around the outside of the roots. Maybe push a little soil up in a ridge against the side of the pot all around so the water id directed towards the middle.

 

[plan500]

Beginning of week 3 flowering, I couldn't be more satisfied with the overall improvement. I now water 1.7L every 4-5 days in 9 liters medium and they love it all the time. Thanks again to all that helped me figure this out!

 

[Emilya Green]

Can you please provide a picture of the plants after they've gone into bloom and are then burning?

 

[plan500]

It’s a shame but at the end of the day we have to accept the reality, learn and move on. So in my last post I was in the beginning of week 3 flowering and plants looks absolutely stunning and healthy without a single dot on them and that recovery came in just two weeks. So being overconfident that they now can handle more nutes and believing I was in the safe range I actually managed to bring them to almost complete destruction. Pictures I post are from today week 6 of flower.

The first issues showed end of week 3, two plants began to yellow a bit starting from the bottom leaves and generally all plants started looking less happy. Not employing any method of media EC monitoring, I assumed that they might be getting hungry and decided to make another feeding and see if that would stop the yellowing. I guess for me the symptoms of over and under feeding are the same.

From that point on plants stated yellowing progressively by the day and by the time I made a runoff test showing around 1800ppm it seemed too late. I waters once with only water to see if there will be some improvement, but no. I waited until the pots were light (lowered the light a bit from 700 to 600ppfd). Once the pots were light, I flushed them with 8L of water each pot (media is about 8 liters in pots) and at the end recharged with 1.5 liters pouring through the media with about 350ppm food + compost tea.

My logic here was that they still need some food for the next 6-7 day. On other hand 9 liters flush is probably not enough to flush all nutes out, but anyway.

I have attached a detailed schedule of the feedings from the last 3 weeks VEG (when I fixed the watering method and things actually took off) until today flower week 6.

So basically now I hope to just get something out of them and move on. This whole experience has brought me the conclusion that I need to use some media EC monitoring prior to each feeding or else I will be shooting in the dark.

Last couple of days I’ve been reading and experimenting with runoff (pour through) tests and also bought a Bluelab Pulse meter. So far readings of the device are consistent with runoff. Currently the plants appear to have 600-800ppm in the media, today I watered with just some compost tea and enzymes.

I don’t know if plants are locked now and if what I’ve done will get them better or worse but honestly I am more concerned about the upcoming batches as I am in a continues cycle. A nightmare basically

I don’t have a lot of experience with runoff and how much I can trust it. As I was flushing the plants I was taking some mid-readings of the EC of the water and it seems hard to completely flush a pot to 0ppm. As if the media is releasing the nutes slowly and can’t flush them at once. On other hand when doing the runoff test I don’t know what affects the concentration of this runoff and the factors that might get a false reading.

The bottom line is, I am in a mid-sized continuous operation and I am unable to properly feed these plants and have control of the process. So at this point any suggestions in that direction are very welcomed.


P.S ppms in the table include on average 2ml/L Alga Bloom and 0.3ml/l Calmag as well as enzymes.