SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[Tead]

This is an excellent way to get cannabinoids into the system. It's a meal at the same time

And now you're trying to get me fat and stoned....
Oh no... I see a certain wickedness in play here!

 

[SweetSue]

And now you're trying to get me fat and stoned....
Oh no... I see a certain wickedness in play here!

There's nothing fattening about this smoothie Tead. Lol! It's essentially what I'd eat for a lunch, a small amount of cottage cheese, a container of yogurt, a swallow of mango juice and a couple strawberries, with the added bliss of psychoactive cannabinoids. I admit, the fruit cocktail is a bit overkill for the carbs, but the pear juice they pack it in is a necessary part of the flavor and viscosity. No sugar added, no trash food components. Everything's healthy and nutritious.

But yes, my intent was to get you stoned, and yes, I'll own up to the wicked edge.

 

[Tead]

You may have lost me at "No sugar added"...
At this exact moment, a 5lb bag of Gummy Bears are keeping a 4lb jar of Jelly Bellies company directly beside me... I apparently have a Costco problem. And to be completely honest, I have a equally large bag of M&M's in the fridge.

I do love mixing various fruit you might not put together tho. Try the lime/watermelon combo some day.

 

[Tead]

.... and you did notice how I turned your study hall into a discussion about food. It's a gift.

 

[SweetSue]

.... and you did notice how I turned your study hall into a discussion about food. It's a gift.

Yes, I did notice that gift on display here. The watermelon/lime combo sounds enticing. Now I'll have to try.

 

[PsyCro]

So where does this leave us? Other than confused? Apparently the studies that would settle this question once and for all haven't been done yet. So I ask you, given that the research field has left this question unanswered, if you had cancer and you knew someone who successfully used suppositories to eliminate cancer from his body, what would you choose as your protocol? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't feel comfortable turning my back on that success. Until we have the types of research that's desperately needed funded, we're still guessing as we go, aren't we?

Sue, I hope you don't mind if I edit your post to get to your final thoughts from what you've discovered so far. Unfortunately it gets more complicated than the scenario you describe, because there are multiple reports of people effectively treating aggressive cancers with various dosing methods and amounts. Just on this forum we know of one member who treated an aggressive prostate cancer by tacking alone, and we also have Cajun who treated colon cancer with liver and lung mets with suppositories. And if that isn't enough, I just attended the Patients Out of Time annual conference on cannabis therapeutics where a case study was presented about a 45 year old woman with stage IV breast cancer who was treated to remission with a daily dose of 150mg THC and 75mg CBD administered sublingually. So now the choice is much more difficult because a number of dosing methods have been shown to be effective in a clinical treatment environment. And this it the best information we have right now, given the lack of true clinical trials involving the treatment of cancer with cannabis.

Additionally, at the cannabis conference, the Aunt Zelda's physician treating the breast cancer patient was asked about the use of suppositories. His response was that suppositories delivered less cannabinoids than when delivered sublingually, and was an inferior dosing method requiring much higher doses to achieve the same therapeutic effect. This sentiment was supported by Manuel Guzman, one of the top cannabis researchers in the world. Guzman agreed with the Physician, stating that lipids were not absorbed very well by the colon, and that blood tests done on patients after rectal dosing confirmed a very low level of THC absorption. I did talk directly to Guzman after the presentation to confirm I heard this all correctly, and he confirmed my understanding of his comments. I wish I had asked for more information about these studies he referred to, but at the time I mainly wanted to confirm that I had heard correctly. Given Guzman's reputation in the cannabis research world it didn't seem necessary.

So getting back to your original question. What I think I'll be doing is adding Aunt Zelda's to my treatment team, to advise me on the use of cannabis as a supplemental treatment to the treatments my oncologist prescribes for me. I'll start with lower amounts of THC/CBD administered sublingually, with monthly blood work feedback ordered by my oncologist. And after a couple of months if this doesn't show a marked improvement, I'll go with a different dosing method and/or increased amount of medication. That seems like the most prudent approach to me until more research is available to better inform cancer treatment protocols.

Some more interesting info here...

RECTAL ABSORPTION OF CANNABIS - REVISITED - Greenbridge Medical Services

I have written several blogs on Rectal Administration of Cannabis. Since the writing of that blog, there are several issues that have come to light.

1. I think many know that when THC is administered via the rectal route, it does not cause any psychoactivity or stoniness. Why?
We will discuss. If we are talking about treating cancer, it becomes critical to know if the lack of psychoactivity is due to some unknown cause or just because it is not being absorbed. There is venous drainage from the rectum.

However, that does not necessarily mean that it is being absorbed into the blood. After studying the venous drainage of the rectum, it SEEMED that cannabinoids should/would go through both portal or liver circulation as well as systemic venous circulation. Well, read on….this may not be happening?

2. We have performed some very initial plasma THC and CBD levels following rectal administration of cannabis oil in cocoa butter. The levels were extremely low; barely detectable. This needs to be repeated on many patients, but it does not sound crazy to have very low plasma levels correlating with no psychoactivity. So, nothing is felt by the patient and early studies show low plasma levels
following rectal administration. What could explain this?

3. Perhaps the answer is the following. Searches looking for fat or oil absorption from the rectum** show around 3%, at the most, of any oil is rectally absorbed. As Cannabis is nearly entirely fat or oil based – AND oil is very poorly absorbed rectally, perhaps whole plant cannabis oils are in fact poorly absorbed rectally?

4. There is an often quoted article using molecular THC in hemi-succinate. The reference is below. We can’t use this article’s conclusions for any oil based cannabis product and this is the only type of cannabis products we work with as we don’t work with molecular cannabinoids. Whole plant cannabis extractions are a thick oil and just may not be absorbed because of the oil.

The lack of psychoactivity does not make sense, early blood level testing shows minimal absorption and we know that fats/oils are not absorbed rectally. In addition, there is no data in the literature showing that oils are well absorbed rectally. Attempts to feed patients rectally failed. Clearly more plasma studies are indicated.

In spite of some of the medical findings above, I do have several patients with positive results from using rectal administration of cannabis, so further research will certainly be beneficial.

 

[Canna Montana]

CCO Smoothie (half dose version)

1/8 cup of bio bomb cottage cheese mix
1 container Lemon Meringue Pie Greek yogurt
1 snack-sized container of fruit cocktail
Some chopped up frozen strawberries
1/4 cup or so mango juice (enough to get it to drinking consistency)

Zap it with blender (the immersion blender rocks!!!) and drink.

This is an excellent way to get cannabinoids into the system. It's a meal at the same time.

Add a protein like peanut butter, and it is a meal. Or, a piece of canna buttered toast with peanut butter. That makes your meal a whole protein, peanut butter paired with a dairy.

 

[Tead]

So.... rectal absorbtion....
Oh no... I'll WAY not be attending THAT lecture in the study hall!
Just sayin.


To be a bit more honest, while it's totally not my cup 'o tea, I am happy that folks are discussing that subject and many others. Free exchange of ideas really is the magic around here. I mean, where else can you actually have an intelligent discussion about a subject like rectal absorption? Crazy... but way awesome.

 

[panacea]

I think the "Suethie" will be a great and necessary addition to the Cajun protocol. Sweetum's.

 

[SweetSue]

Add a protein like peanut butter, and it is a meal. Or, a piece of canna buttered toast with peanut butter. That makes your meal a whole protein, peanut butter paired with a dairy.

Some more interesting info here...

RECTAL ABSORPTION OF CANNABIS - REVISITED - Greenbridge Medical Services

I have written several blogs on Rectal Administration of Cannabis. Since the writing of that blog, there are several issues that have come to light.

1. I think many know that when THC is administered via the rectal route, it does not cause any psychoactivity or stoniness. Why?
We will discuss. If we are talking about treating cancer, it becomes critical to know if the lack of psychoactivity is due to some unknown cause or just because it is not being absorbed. There is venous drainage from the rectum.

However, that does not necessarily mean that it is being absorbed into the blood. After studying the venous drainage of the rectum, it SEEMED that cannabinoids should/would go through both portal or liver circulation as well as systemic venous circulation. Well, read on....this may not be happening?

2. We have performed some very initial plasma THC and CBD levels following rectal administration of cannabis oil in cocoa butter. The levels were extremely low; barely detectable. This needs to be repeated on many patients, but it does not sound crazy to have very low plasma levels correlating with no psychoactivity. So, nothing is felt by the patient and early studies show low plasma levels
following rectal administration. What could explain this?

3. Perhaps the answer is the following. Searches looking for fat or oil absorption from the rectum** show around 3%, at the most, of any oil is rectally absorbed. As Cannabis is nearly entirely fat or oil based — AND oil is very poorly absorbed rectally, perhaps whole plant cannabis oils are in fact poorly absorbed rectally?

4. There is an often quoted article using molecular THC in hemi-succinate. The reference is below. We can't use this article's conclusions for any oil based cannabis product and this is the only type of cannabis products we work with as we don't work with molecular cannabinoids. Whole plant cannabis extractions are a thick oil and just may not be absorbed because of the oil.

The lack of psychoactivity does not make sense, early blood level testing shows minimal absorption and we know that fats/oils are not absorbed rectally. In addition, there is no data in the literature showing that oils are well absorbed rectally. Attempts to feed patients rectally failed. Clearly more plasma studies are indicated.

In spite of some of the medical findings above, I do have several patients with positive results from using rectal administration of cannabis, so further research will certainly be beneficial.

Apparently there's something going on that hasn't been taken into account yet. We have, in our own ranks, at least one such patient. It would be nice to know how many patients he has that use suppositories who have unfavorable results, wouldn't it?

 

[SweetSue]

I think the "Suethie" will be a great and necessary addition to the Cajun protocol. Sweetum's.

It's quickly becoming my favorite breakfast panacea. I started my day with one, a full dose. The approx. 200mg dose sits well with me. I'm operating with more efficiency, cleaning areas I've ignored for months and months, organizing my clothing drawers, beginning the next stage of purging. I'm going to ride this one as far as I can today to determine the best time to take that evening brownie.

Picked up another bottle of Everclear yesterday. Now I have enough on hand for a few small batches. I'm going to focus on small batches until I have it down to something I'm really comfortable with and I'm getting decent yields from.

I also had my anxiety-driven daughter come over last night to try vaping the Med GOM 1.0 instead of taking another God-awful Vallium. Worked like a charm. She had almost instantaneous relief from tension, pain and anxiety and had a sound and restful night's sleep. She was able to wake up with a clear head, something that's not the case with most psyche meds.

She felt so good this morning she came back over and had a couple pulls from the vaporizer to start the day. We'll wait to see how she goes today. This is very good news.

 

[CajunCelt]

That's the issue for me.
I've said before that I'm not married to any method. If new info changes our current knowledge, I'll make the necessary changes too.
But... this question of renal absorption is not new. There are studies that refute the above & there are way too many patients alive directly due to suppositories when all else had no positive results.
I'm not changing my own personal opinion for now.
What's also not being addressed very well is that the purpose of rectal suppositories are systemic absorption. It's mentioned at least.
The lab results, my own included, showing therapeutic levels of cannabinoids in plasma is contrary to this study. Time will tell I guess.
Personally, I'd love to learn to learn that suppositories are not effective.
It wouldn't hurt my feelings to stop advising people how to shove meds up their butt.

 

[SweetSue]

I hear you Cajun.

 

[fookinel]

fookinel, if you mixed the carrier oil and the CCO when the CCO was still fresh and warm, might that fascilitate the dissolving? Since you plan to use this method for the patient's regular dose, it shouldn't be a concern to mix it all up in the beginning.

I write this as someone who has yet to see CCO up close and personal, so I know nothing about the characteristics of the finished oil.

Apologies for not replying earlier, looking after the girls has been a bit of a full time job recently!

I wish I could mix them when the CCO is fresh but unfortunately I get the CCO by post so that's not really an option until the girls are ready (still a long way off for now).

It looks like I'll have to heat it slightly, I'll probably try heating it to 40-50 degC at the most and see how I go. Then I can hopefully write up what I did

 

[fookinel]

OIL!!! Look at how easy that was.

Nice job!

 

[fookinel]

The test results show the percent of decarb, the black highlighted results. That flower was decarbed at 240 F for 1 hour in the oven. You can see that got about 90% of the cbd decarbed.

Is there any information to determine if you can decarb CBDA too long? I've seen the graphs showing that decarbing THCA for too long results in a reduction in THC, however, I've never seen anything regarding CBD...

 

[Neiko]

fookinel, I'm not sure. This all new to me. My latest batch I sent to the lab for testing on Friday. I decarbed at 240 F for 70 minutes. I increased the time by 10 minutes this time to try and get closer to 100% cbd conversion. I will post the results when I get them.

 

[fookinel]

fookinel, I'm not sure. This all new to me. My latest batch I sent to the lab for testing on Friday. I decarbed at 240 F for 70 minutes. I increased the time by 10 minutes this time to try and get closer to 100% cbd conversion. I will post the results when I get them.

That'd be great! It's certainly a good start for those interested in CBD

 

[fookinel]

Some more interesting info here...

PsyCro! How's your pressure cooker batch going?! I was beginning to wonder if it went too well and we wouldn't hear back from you!

 

[SlowToke]

What's also not being addressed very well is that the purpose of rectal suppositories are systemic absorption. It's mentioned at least.
The lab results, my own included, showing therapeutic levels of cannabinoids in plasma is contrary to this study.

Cajun, was this lab work done while you were being treated in Texas? And your oncologist didn't have a problem testing for cannabinoids even though they were illegal to ingest? I've been pondering these issues as I plan the start of my treatment after my harvest in a couple of months, and would love to hear more about you medical support in a state the appears to only allow CBD only cannabis oil. My resident state is totally non-permissive, but I am being treated in the district which has abolished prohibition and has a pretty good medical cannabis program (but only for residents). Pretty murky water, so it would be extremely helpful to hear how you navigated these issues.

Feel free to PM me if you prefer.

Thanks!