Watts per square foot?

[ZARBU]

My t-5 lights are 22073 lux at the canopy...I'll have to play with this tool.

I know lux isn't PAR, but I'm a numbers guy, numbers give me wood....okay maybe I'm just high and need to go to bed.

lower those t5 lights till they reach 58000 lux at plant top, if they cant a cheap 600 watt metal halide or hps will veg better.

LUX doesn't work as well for LED, LUX is visible light to the human eye. , but still gives a good indication from my experience, my Led light at 58000 lux still cant out yield my HPS at 58000 lux. but its only a blue/ red/ orange, far red, i think they called them tri bands? not sure

for me ill stick to simple hps and Phillips bulbs for both veg and flower.

My experience to date tells me hps are the best for big yeild and CMH, CFD , plasma and LEDs potency boosters so use them in combination with HPS.

Kiwiiwik

 

[DRM Ranch]

lower those t5 lights till they reach 58000 lux at plant top, if they cant a cheap 600 watt metal halide or hps will veg better.

LUX doesn't work as well for LED, LUX is visible light to the human eye. , but still gives a good indication from my experience, my Led light at 58000 lux still cant out yield my HPS at 58000 lux. but its only a blue/ red/ orange, far red, i think they called them tri bands? not sure

for me I'll stick to simple hps and Phillips bulbs for both veg and flower.

My experience to date tells me hps are the best for big yeild and CMH, CFD , plasma and LEDs potency boosters so use them in combination with HPS.

Kiwiiwik

Ultimately it boils down to $ per square foot saved/earned minus $ per square foot spent divided by time. The lower the end figure the more efficient the system is as a whole.

Within the scope of my situation, priority goes to local laws, quality of the meds, then return on investment.

My local laws limit quite a lot, so gaining efficiency here is prevented for the most part. Simply put zero veg SOG with plant number limitations will never out perform SCROG plants.

I reside in an environment where the patient base seeks out exceptional quality. The pool of grower's here deliver exactly that for the most part. So getting up to speed on quality is a huge priority to me. Still, running with the pack never got anyone ahead.

Return on investment is important, I'm not setting pricing, I'm working within an existing price environment looking for system that will be sustainable for me and valuable to my patients. I want everyone to feel they are getting more for their hard earned money that they expected.

To do all this I need to remain lawful and cognisant of my responsibility to conserve and use resources in a logical manner.

If a particular light serves two functions (improves quality, improves output) at a similar cost as another light, I will decide on the light that is better regardless of cost.

 

[Graytail]

FWIW, a lot of growers I respect are turning to the new DEs.

They're efficient and basic, and that usually tips the balance. You can get decent reliable LED panels now for under a buck/watt, too, but a lot of grows are already set up for HID - everyone has experience with HID.

The new 315 watt CMH/CDM are interesting, too ... nice spectrum. I've been considering running a 315W vertical CMH in the middle of my 4x4, with four 185 watt LEDs in the corners.

 

[Papageno]

600 is all you need...I like My 1000 as I can adjust it with my ballast to do 650, 750, 1000, 1150. The higher watts are great for light penetration. So you can get to those popcorn buds. But you only need a 600 in most micro gardens. 1000 is for full standing plants in a real pro grow. I just like it and I don't care about money. I have a real job and make enough money. I just want to get all the light into them as I can.

But regardless DE is much brighter and cheaper in the long run. A bit more up front but the bulbs last way longer and degrade much slower. there are a few reasons for it and you can go look into that yourself. But the most obvious one is that since it is mounted on both sides it doesn't rattle as much. They do not HUM like an SE. So they are not damaging themselves as much. the vibration breaks down the lamp and holding it on both ends firmly reduces that tremendously. There is more to it as well. But the real point is even after they have lasted twice as long they are still degrading much slower.

And since you get more light you get better plants which help to offset the up front cost. It all pays for itself in one grow. If you have a decent one you can use your old ballast on the new lamp and only upgrade half the set up now and upgrade the rest later and then you have a backup.

 

[DRM Ranch]

I have no dedicated flower lights at all at the moment, the t-5 lamps are it.

I'm a buy it once kind of guy, I'm not interested in spending my money looking for the right equipment.

LOL on the real pro comment, tall plants are not my idea of what defines a professional grow. No offense to those who grow in such a manner intended of course.

 

[Papageno]

All I am saying is like a 20 plant grow in a large room...something like this needs a few 1000W...

 

[AKgramma]

LOL! I feel so inadequate! you all are talking way above my pay grade!

I am now running approx 100Watts/sf with CFLs, mixed soft white and Daylight, Mostly soft white in the flower closet and mostly Daylight in the veg. Each pair of bulbs is on a utility clippie with socket doublers, so I can move them around according to plant growth and after I adjust the LST tie-downs.

This is more light than I used for my previous harvests, so maybe I'll get better buds.

 

[ZARBU]

LOL! I feel so inadequate! you all are talking way above my pay grade!

I am now running approx 100Watts/sf with CFLs, mixed soft white and Daylight, Mostly soft white in the flower closet and mostly Daylight in the veg. Each pair of bulbs is on a utility clippie with socket doublers, so I can move them around according to plant growth and after I adjust the LST tie-downs.

This is more light than I used for my previous harvests, so maybe I'll get better buds.

I posted this to another thread, it may be of interest here?

If you have a Samsung Galaxy smart phone or similar phone with light sensors go to the google play store and down load a free lux light meter app to test light levels.

One called LUX meter, is one and Light Meter is another.


Lower your hps lights and your fluros\ until you get 58000 LUX at the top leaves of your plant, this is the perfect height to hang your lights for best yield in budding and growth in veg, if you cant hit 58,000 with the fluro tubes bring the lights as close to the leaves as possible without touching, check heat between light and leaf.

Check for heat with your hand with the hps, warm is ok but if heat too hot raise it a little, and check LUX reading again.. fluro tubes can come within a inch of the plant.

Test Lux on both lights and let me know your light level to canopy.

What Wattage are your HPS bulbs?


Once you have a LUX light meter you will see for your self how quickly light levels drop with distance from the bulb.
this is why experienced growers try to veg small compact bushy plants with very close nodes, so they don't become too tall when they stretch when the hours are cut to 12 /12. tall veg plants mean the bottom canopy wont receive the needed light intensity after the stretch that occurs in the 3 weeks after the flip to 12/12. .

Any plant buds receiving less than 20,000 lux will be light fluffy and of poor quality and weight.

aim to have your plants receive at least 25,000 lux at the growing media level after the 12/12 stretch . With lower wattage lights less than 1000 watts this means growing short plants in veg. Plants grow short in veg with 58,000 LUX because they have no reason to stretch for the light.

A plant should be measured in number of leaf nodes not height, smaller the inter node length the better the grow and higher the yield will be because you have better light penetration and intensity to the bottom.

Light intensity is everything, light is plant food. more it has, faster it will grow and higher it will yield.

once you use your light meter you will understand light drops off fast with every cm.

distance from light and light intensity will make or break you as a grower.

I never run my grows below 58,000 LUX to the top of the plant and always above 25,000 lux at the growing media level

(LUX Meter not as suitable for Led lights, try use PAR meters)

 

[Papageno]

And that is why I use a 1000W. It aids in deeper penetration. That's also why Pros (like above ...I don't consider growing in a tent a real pro setup) don't waste time with MH lights. Stretch is preferred for large grows. It gets the pesky lower branches up closer to the lights. In fact most knowledgeable growers use stretch to their advantage and don't waste money on a MH. And many people using MH use them wrong and switch them out right at the time during the only 2 weeks of the grow where it helps to have a MH.


If you are SCROGing or doing some other very horizontal grow where you don't need penetration AND you are not growing over a large area you definitely don't NEED a 1000.

I prefer a 1000 as I have many more options. I still can run mine at 650 if I want. I still use my 400 in early veg some times. But with a 1000 I can grow a taller bush if I want too.

 

[ZARBU]

And that is why I use a 1000W. It aids in deeper penetration. That's also why Pros (like above ...I don't consider growing in a tent a real pro setup) don't waste time with MH lights. Stretch is preferred for large grows. It gets the pesky lower branches up closer to the lights. In fact most knowledgeable growers use stretch to their advantage and don't waste money on a MH. And many people using MH use them wrong and switch them out right at the time during the only 2 weeks of the grow where it helps to have a MH.


If you are SCROGing or doing some other very horizontal grow where you don't need penetration AND you are not growing over a large area you definitely don't NEED a 1000.

I prefer a 1000 as I have many more options. I still can run mine at 650 if I want. I still use my 400 in early veg some times. But with a 1000 I can grow a taller bush if I want too.

village I agree with some of what you say, not all of it.

Plants are stretching because they sense a over all light reduction on the flip.


we don't want plants to stretch to the light we want to move the light to them instead until the point where we cant due to heat limitations.

unfortunately we have to reduce the light hours to get the plants to flower, this is a cut to over all carbohydrates from 24 to 12 hours and not ideal for yield.

stretch is never good or helpful but its something we must do. stretch is the plant saying my carbohydrates have been cut and i want what i had before.

more light less stretch, the plant will always adapt to receive as much light as it can, our job is to make that easier so it can conserve energy.

Growers don't use stretch to their advantage but the plant does.

stretch is not preferred for large grows its simply a side effect of not being able to provide what the plant needs.

Often commercial growers can not do what private growers can do due to cost restraints and economics.

your example photo is of a grower not being able to provide the best lighting for his plants due to cost.

even 1000 watt bulbs have poor light penetration

look and the photo and the drop off in light as it moves towards the ground.

Thats far from ideal, hes trying to cover area at the expense of light intensity.

Kiwiiwik

 

[Papageno]

LOL

I know why they stretch. Many people like stretch. I am saying it is a very false statement to say we don't want plants to stretch. Stretch is useful by those in the know.

Not arguing here just pointing out facts.

 

[ZARBU]

LOL

I know why they stretch. Many people like stretch. I am saying it is a very false statement to say we don't want plants to stretch. Stretch is useful by those in the know.

Not arguing here just pointing out facts.

The only reason why stretch might be beneficial is air flow, to stop buds from going moldy.

stretch just means less light penetration, less light intensity and less yield because the bulbs further away, side or angle lighting may be a different story and stretch may help a little.

there is always a degree of stretch under 12/12,(i.e enough) I think minimizing it is beneficial.

Kiwiiwik

 

[DRM Ranch]

LOL! I feel so inadequate! you all are talking way above my pay grade!

I am now running approx 100Watts/sf with CFLs, mixed soft white and Daylight, Mostly soft white in the flower closet and mostly Daylight in the veg. Each pair of bulbs is on a utility clippie with socket doublers, so I can move them around according to plant growth and after I adjust the LST tie-downs.

This is more light than I used for my previous harvests, so maybe I'll get better buds.

I'm running 54W/sq.ft. at the moment, I'm certainly going to moving on to better lighting for my next flowering.

In veg however I do believe my plants will remain under the t-5 lighting at least for the majority of the time as I am very happy with the results over the time I plan to keep them in the vegetative state.

 

[AKgramma]

For people at MY level of income, adding T5's amounts to a major upgrade, esp if one purchases ballasts and bulbs with higher output.

In the 70's most people in our circle of friends grew a few pot plants under shop lights. We just watered them, and cut off what we wanted to smoke at the time. No curing, just oven dried. It was so simple once upon a time!

 

[DRM Ranch]

As a small business owner with no employees my income isn't exactly swollen beyond living sale to sale.

I believe very strongly in being efficient, frugal, and honest. My ability to put this grow together is based on the above, not on an excess of money laying around.

Granted I do have the ability to pick up patients which can offset my costs to produce great meds, and that is among the motivators to get very good equipment. Still, I don't see a point in doing things in a manner that is below what I can possibly muster.

 

[AKgramma]

As a small business owner with no employees my income isn't exactly swollen beyond living sale to sale.

I believe very strongly in being efficient, frugal, and honest. My ability to put this grow together is based on the above, not on an excess of money laying around.

Granted I do have the ability to pick up patients which can offset my costs to produce great meds, and that is among the motivators to get very good equipment. Still, I don't see a point in doing things in a manner that is below what I can possibly muster.

I meant no criticism. All Apologies.

 

[DRM Ranch]

I meant no criticism. All Apologies.

No need to apologize, I just wanted to clarify the situation. I may not always be able to buy what I want at a moments notice but I will not buy something I don't want just to fill a gap.

I will complete my current grow with my t-5s with the understanding that it is a learning experience, and hope that I can scrape enough together for better lighting.

We all do the best we can with what we have.

 

[dilloncalifornia]

600w per 4 sq ft? Good god man. I don't think your taking into account things like overlap of the light foot pattern, and height of the garden. Looking at paper can be deceiving, nothing like real world experience. You would have to use gallons of calmag to protect your lady's from that. I said 2 400s because of startup cost, heat, LIGHT OVERLAP/added efficiency from the 2nd light point in a 2x4 tent, and a host of other variables. 2 600s Is solely based on a chart correct?

Exactly, I don’t know what and how these people are growing but I do 18-22 watts/sqft with double ended hps and hit 2.5 lbs/per light consistently on large scale (110 lights)

 

[dilloncalifornia]

In veg I'm working with 54w/sq.ft. 432w over a 4x2 SCROG.

In the future I'm considering a 600w HID over the same area, 75w/sq.ft.

I'm wanting the best return on my electric investment, so my question becomes at what point is there an obvious point of diminishing returns based mainly on the watts per square foot metric with HID lights.

A related question would be what/where might be a good place to research multiple fixtures performance in terms of PAR maps. I've found a few, and will keep looking.

Thanks in advance.

From my experience I harvest 2.5 lbs per 16 sqft with 18-25 watts/sqft of double ended hps lights on a semi-large scale (110 lights). It sounds crazy but it’s true. My plants are usually 35-45 inches tall when finished and roughly 2-3 feet from light bulb. No cal mag, no fancy nutes, just micro and bloom. Dense, purple, good dank bud. I usually run the 1000w lights on 600-825w.

Oh ya, and no ac systems or co2

 

[Bill284]

From my experience I harvest 2.5 lbs per 16 sqft with 18-25 watts/sqft of double ended hps lights on a semi-large scale (110 lights). It sounds crazy but it’s true. My plants are usually 35-45 inches tall when finished and roughly 2-3 feet from light bulb. No cal mag, no fancy nutes, just micro and bloom. Dense, purple, good dank bud. I usually run the 1000w lights on 600-825w.

Oh ya, and no ac systems or co2

Beautiful garden my friend @dilloncalifornia.
Welcome to 420magazine.
Great stats too, wow.
Why don't you drop a post in the introduction thread and meet everyone, so we can all say hi.
Here is a link.
BTW that's an old post 2016, top left corner, that member has been gone since 2018 and won't reply.

Stay safe
Bill

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