Need some advice on organic soil

[Output]

I'm getting ready to do my first grow ever, and decided to use organic soil.

Of course, I love the idea of organic. But the real reason I'm doing it is because where I live, I cannot get nutrients here is a. And the weight of them is prohibitively expensive.

So I need to put together an organic soil that will work well for me.

Here's the basic soil recipe I want to follow:

Here is the gist of what it calls for.

8 large bags of a high-quality organic potting soil with coco fiber and mycorrhizae (i.e., your base soil)
25 to 50 lbs of organic worm castings
5 lbs steamed bone meal
5 lbs Bloom bat guano
5 lbs blood meal
3 lbs rock phosphate
¾ cup Epson salts
½ cup sweet lime (dolomite)
½ cup azomite (trace elements)
2 tbsp powdered humic acid

----------------------------------------
I can easily get the worm castings, and I can bring in the rock phosphate, sweet lime, azomite and humic acid if I can't find them here.

My question is regarding bone meal, bat guano and blood meal.

I could easily get blood and bones from the butcher shop. Unfortunately, they will not be dry.

Can I just grind the bones up and put them in the soil?

And can I just put the fresh blood in the soil? I could let it all sit outside in the sun for a few days to a few weeks or however long I need first.

And same question with that guano. I may actually be able to find fresh bat guano here. Could I just get some and put it in the soil?

Thanks for your help.

 

[David Bowman]

I would dry the blood and bones before adding them to you soil mixture, otherwise all sorts of unwanted organisms are likely to invade your mix and cause problems further down the road. I'm not sure of the concentration differences betwee liquid versus dried bat guano. I think the reason behind adding dried components to the above soil mix is to maintain a stable mix with a known water content so that the nutrients do not leach out prior to use.

 

[Output]

That makes sense. Now let me see if I can figure out how to make that happen.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Rock phosphate is an alternative to bone meal both contain P - phosphorus... so ya wanna choose what one you want use !

Home made bone meal is often done with chicken bones being less hard than other types of bones... a slow bake in the oven can be used to soften em up for grinding, but on a mass scale steaming is used on other animal bones !

You can do research via the internet on home made bone meal & you will find a number of results

Blood will need to be dryed & normally considored a fast release nutrient of N-nitrogen i'm sure info is available on that also !



As for bat manure or any other manure it is best used well rotted, as when it is fresh may contain pathogens & through the act of decomposing the pathogens are destroyed by the heat generated by the process !


If mixing ya own blend of organic compost it is best to leave to sit for 4 to 6 weeks so that any beneficial microorganism may begin to start work with ingredients used

Oh ye check PH value of home made mix also, ya want it between PH 6 & 7

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Manures are also a good option as many have a low NPK value & often support trace micro nutrients... such as farmyard, horse, chicken etc

Sea weed is another good option if near the coast with low NPK & many trace value micro nutrients also...

Plenty of info on the internet about these

 

[Output]

Manures are also a good option as many have a low NPK value & often support trace micro nutrients... such as farmyard, horse, chicken etc

Sea weed is another good option if near the coast with low NPK & many trace value micro nutrients also...

Plenty of info on the internet about these

Excellent ideas. I assume, they need to be dried is that right?

I think doing this organically won't be so hard as I had initially thought.

Thank you. By the way, I really like your signature, Fuzzy Duck. And we elect our politicians to completely obliterate truth.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Excellent ideas. I assume, they need to be dried is that right?

I think doing this organically won't be so hard as I had initially thought.

Thank you. By the way, I really like your signature, Fuzzy Duck. And we elect our politicians to completely obliterate truth.

Manures need to be well rotted... looking at 6 months to a year !


Sea weed breaks down pretty quickly & can be dug into soil or mixed... the salt content can be easy flushed with a good wash prior to use.

 

[Output]

FuzzyDuck and Coloradohigh - thank you so much for your comments and advice.

For now, I will be buying these ingredients dried instead of trying to make them on my own. In time, I will learn and get a good compost pile going and be able to do more myself.

 

[Icemud]

I found this a while back on the Colorado State U growing information and found it to be pretty useful when knowing about each of the key soil components. The mix you posted above seems pretty good. I use similar ingredients and recently just picked up a few new additives to compare the results.

I typically use either pro mix hp, happy frog or ocean forest for base soil, sometimes a mixture
always use worm castings
was using perlite but switched to volcanic pumice because perlite has virtually 0 CEC where pumice sits around 70-100 CEC.
alaskan forest humice
Soft rock phosphate
gypsum
calcium carbonate
azamite
have been using a high P guano, but this next grow I am switching to a fish bone meal instead.
lavasand
greensand

each grow I have tried a few other ingredients but so far above is the staple of my base soil with additives. Each of my journals I put the ratios and amounts.

I also would suggest looking into DocBud's High Brix soil additves. There are many respected growers using his process and showcasing some amazing results...

anyhow..


this is what I wanted to share...from the Colorado State master growers website.

Plant by-products

Alfalfa meal or pellets
Alfalfa meal or pellets are often used as animal feed. Primarily they are used to
increase organic matter in the soil but do offer nutrients and a high availability of
trace minerals. They contain trianconatol, a natural fatty-acid growth stimulant.
Alfalfa meal or pellets
Typical NPK analysis 2-1-2
Release time 1-4 months
Pros Available at feed stores
Cons May contain seeds
Application Till in 2-5 pounds per 100 square feet
234-3


Corn gluten meal
Corn gluten meal materials have a high percentage of nitrogen. It carries a
warning to allow 1 to 4 months of decomposition in the soil prior to seeding.
Allelopathic properties will inhibit the germination of seeds. However, there is no
danger to established or transplanted plants. This product is also marketed as a
pre-emergent weed control for annual grasses in bluegrass lawns.
Corn gluten meal
Typical NPK analysis 9-0-0
Release time 1-4 months
Pros Very high nitrogen
Cons Germination inhibitor, some are GMOs
Application Till in 20-40 pounds per 1000 square feet


Cottonseed meal
Cottonseed meal is a rich source of nitrogen. Buyers should be aware that many
pesticides are applied to cotton crops and residues tend to remain in the seeds.
Pesticide-free cottonseed meal is available.
Cottonseed meal
Typical NPK analysis 6-0.4-1.5
Release time 1-4 months
Pros High nitrogen
Cons Pesticide residues, most are GMOs
Application Till in 10 pounds per 100 square feet



Soybean Meal
Used primarily as an animal feed product. Available bagged at many feed stores.
Soybean meal
Typical NPK analysis 7-2-1
Release time 1-4 months
Pros High nitrogen, available at feed stores
Cons Almost half of the conventionally grown soy is
GMO
Application 8 pounds per 100 square




Animal by-products


Bat guano – high N
Bat guano (feces) harvested from caves is powdered. It can be applied directly to
the soil or made into a tea and applied as a foliar spray or injected into an irrigation
system.
234-4
Bat guano – high N
Typical NPK analysis 10-3-1
Release time 4+ months
Pros Stimulates soil microbes
Cons Cost
Application Till in 5 pounds per 100 square feet or as a tea at
3 teaspoons per gallon of water



Bat guano – high P
See the description above. Difference is that it is processed for high phosphorus
content.
Bat guano – high P
Typical NPK analysis 3-10-1
Release time 4+ months
Pros Stimulates soil microbes
Cons Cost
Application Till in 5 pounds per 100 square feet or as tea at 3
teaspoons per gallon of water



Blood meal
Blood meal, made from dried slaughterhouse waste, is one of the highest nonsynthetic
sources of nitrogen. If over-applied it can burn plants with excessive
ammonia.
Blood meal
Typical NPK analysis 12-0-0
Release time 1–4 months
Pros Available at feed stores
Cons Can burn. Expensive at garden centers
Application Till in 5–10 pounds per 100 square feet



Bone meal
A well-known source of phosphorus, bone meal is steam processed and widely
available at feed stores and in garden centers. If purchased at feed stores, P is
expressed on the label as elemental phosphorus and is 2.3 times higher than
numbers shown on garden center labels for phosphate (i.e. – 12% phosphate is the
same as 27% phosphorus). However, recent CSU research has shown that P
from bone meal is only available to plants in soils that have a pH below 7.0.


Bone meal
Typical NPK analysis 3-15-0
Release time 1–4 months
Pros Highly plant available form of phosphorus
Cons Cost
Application Till in 10 pounds per 100 square feet
234-5


Feather meal
Sourced from poultry slaughter, feather meal has fairly high nitrogen levels but is
slow to release the N.
Feather meal
Typical NPK analysis N varies 7 – 12% on process
Release time 4+ months
Pros Long term fertilizer
Cons Cost versus speed of N release
Application Till in 2.5-5 pounds per 100 square feet



Fish emulsion
Infamous for its foul smell, emulsions are soluble, liquid fertilizers that have been
heat and acid processed from fish waste.
Fish emulsion
Typical NPK analysis 5-2-2
Release time 1 – 4 months
Pros Adds needed micronutrients
Cons Some have foul smell
Application Mix 6 tablespoons per gallon of water


Enzymatically digested hydrolyzed liquid fish
Enzymatically digested hydrolyzed liquid fish may be using enzymes to digest the
nutrients from fish wastes instead of using heat and acids. This retains more of the
proteins, enzymes, vitamins and micronutrients than emulsions.
Enzymatically digested hydrolyzed liquid fish
Typical NPK analysis 4-2-2
Release time 1 – 4 months
Pros More nutrients than emulsions
Cons More expensive than emulsions
Application Mix 5 tablespoons per gallon of water



Fish meal
Fish meal is ground and heat dried fish waste.
Fish meal
Typical NPK analysis 10-6-2
Release time 1 – 4 months
Pros N and P source
Cons Heat processed
Application Till in 5-10 pounds per 100 square feet
234-6



Fish powder
Fish power is dried with heat and turned into water-soluble powder. It is a high
source of nitrogen. Many can be mixed into solution and injected into an irrigation
system.
Fish powder
Typical NPK analysis 12-0.25-1
Release time Immediate to 1 month
Pros Adds micro-nutrients
Cons Heat processed
Application Till in 1-2 oz. Per 100 square feet OR Mix at 1
tablespoon per gallon of water




Compost, manure, and biosolid based products


For information on biosolids, worm casting, manure, and compost, refer to the
following CMG GardenNotes:
#241, Soil Amendments
#242, Using Manure in the Home Garden
#243, Using Compost in the Home Garden



Rock powders


Rock powders relevant for use in Colorado soils are those that supply phosphorus.
Those that serve as a potassium source (greensand, feldspar, potassium sulfate,
biotite, etc.) are not necessary as Colorado soils are naturally high in potassium.
Similarly, it is not necessary to add calcium (gypsum, lime, etc.) due to naturally
high calcium levels in Colorado soils and arid conditions.

If you are making annual applications of manure and/or compost to your garden to
add nitrogen, you should have sufficient levels of phosphorus in your soil. If you
are applying manure or compost to your garden based on P needs, you might have
an excess N supply. Excess N can lead to poor flower/fruit development and
increases water pollution potential from N leaching from the soil.
Generally, plant or animal sources are the best value for phosphorus in the home
garden. Recent CSU research results concluded that no rock P (regardless of
mesh size) is available for plant use unless the soil pH is below 7.0.
Colloidal phosphate – a.k.a. soft rock phosphate

This product is made by surrounding clay particles with natural phosphate. Total
phosphate is about 20% while available phosphate is about 2-3%. This is why you
can apply large amounts of colloidal phosphate, as it will release slowly over the
years (usually more available the second year than the first). For home gardeners
the cost/return is adequate to apply colloidal phosphate at rates to supply
phosphorus for this season’s crops. This product also adds micronutrients to soil.
234-7



Micronized (passing through 1000 mesh screen [1000 wires per square inch])
sources may be more available than regular soft rock grinds in soils with a pH
below 7.0.



Seaweed
Kelp is the most common form and is valued not for its macronutrient (N, P, and
K) contributions but for micronutrients, trace minerals, amino acids and vitamins
plus growth hormones that stimulate plant cell division.
Kelp is often mixed with fish products to enhance growth.
Three processes are available: extracts (as kelp meal or powder), cold-processed
(usually liquid) and enzymatically digested (liquid). Ranked in quality of content
and plant availability they are (highest to lowest) 1) enzymatically digested, 2)
cold-processed and 3) extracts.



Kelp meal
Kelp meal, a product of the ocean, is used primarily as a trace mineral source. It is
often combined with fish meal to add N-P-K value.
Kelp meal
Typical NPK analysis negligible
Release time 4+ months
Pros Adds micronutrients
Cons Insignificant NPK value
Application Till in 1 pound per 100 square feet



Kelp powder
Kelp powder is similar to kelp meal but ground fine enough to put into solution
and applied as a foliar spray or injected into an irrigation system.
Kelp powder
Typical NPK analysis 1-0-4
Release time Immediate – 1 month
Pros Adds micronutrients
Cons Insignificant NPK value
Application Mix ¼ to ½ teaspoon/gallon of water



Liquid kelp
Usually cold processed, liquid kelp will have higher levels of growth hormones
than extracts. Some may also be enzymatically digested, making the growth
hormones even more available to the plants.
234-8
Liquid kelp
Typical NPK analysis Negligible
Release time Immediate – 1 month
Pros Adds micronutrients plus helps plant
with stress
Cons Insignificant NPK value
Application Mix 1 – 2 TBS/gal of water for foliar or
Mix at ¼ - 1¼ tsp/gal/100 ft2 and inject
into an irrigation system

 

[Output]

Hey Icemud,

Is gypsum the stuff that's used in construction? Do you just break some of it up in your soil? I realize that sounds like a seriously newb question.

So you don't use bone or blood meal?

Doc Bud talks about something called HIgh Brix amendment - but I can't figure out what that is where I could buy it.

Here's the thing… I don't live in the US. Most of this kind of stuff doesn't exist here. Anything I use has to be brought in and it's horribly expensive to do it. I pay $3+ per pound just in shipping costs.

So I'm trying to figure out the best way I can grow organically (and now High Brix), healthy and tasty.

Things like green sand, don't exist here that I'm aware of. There is volcanic rock – direct from the volcano. Is that usable?

So here's a question for you… If you were in my situation and wanted to grow like I do, what nutrients would you bring in for your first grow? (20 plants approx.)

Kelp Meal
Fish Bone Meal
Calcium Carbonate
rock phosphate
azomite
powdered humic acid

Any of the above not necessary?

What can I do to keep it simple, yet effective and organic?

 

[Conradino23]

Ok, so you can decide either for bat guano, rock phosphate or bone meal, cause you don't need eveyrything, considering that bat guano breaks down quicker in soil. azomite can be added, I've never used it, but many experienced growers stand by it. humic acid can be omitted if you have natural garden compost around - there will be plenty of humic acid inside. calcium carbonate can be thrown away too. fish meal or blood meal do the same thing, but blood meal is more effective, need to be careful with that one though. if you put that together with good soil, kelp meal, wood ash and mycorrhizae, you're gonna have a plenty of nutrients for your plants and most likely you're not gonna see any deficits.

 

[shottafire]

Ok, so you can decide either for bat guano, rock phosphate or bone meal, cause you don't need eveyrything, considering that bat guano breaks down quicker in soil. azomite can be added, I've never used it, but many experienced growers stand by it. humic acid can be omitted if you have natural garden compost around - there will be plenty of humic acid inside. calcium carbonate can be thrown away too. fish meal or blood meal do the same thing, but blood meal is more effective, need to be careful with that one though. if you put that together with good soil, kelp meal, wood ash and mycorrhizae, you're gonna have a plenty of nutrients for your plants and most likely you're not gonna see any deficits.

Throw away calcium carbonate? Im sorry but I am going to keep mine.

 

[Output]

Ok, so you can decide either for bat guano, rock phosphate or bone meal, cause you don't need eveyrything, considering that bat guano breaks down quicker in soil. azomite can be added, I've never used it, but many experienced growers stand by it. humic acid can be omitted if you have natural garden compost around - there will be plenty of humic acid inside. calcium carbonate can be thrown away too. fish meal or blood meal do the same thing, but blood meal is more effective, need to be careful with that one though. if you put that together with good soil, kelp meal, wood ash and mycorrhizae, you're gonna have a plenty of nutrients for your plants and most likely you're not gonna see any deficits.

You mentioned wood ash. Apparently, you can mix urine with wood ash as well. Not sure how I feel about that. LOL

By the way, I can get worm castings too, real easily here. Would they work for garden compost? Or is garden compost, plant matter that has been composted?

 

[Icemud]

Hey Icemud,

Is gypsum the stuff that's used in construction? Do you just break some of it up in your soil? I realize that sounds like a seriously newb question.

So you don't use bone or blood meal?

Doc Bud talks about something called HIgh Brix amendment - but I can't figure out what that is where I could buy it.

Here's the thing... I don't live in the US. Most of this kind of stuff doesn't exist here. Anything I use has to be brought in and it's horribly expensive to do it. I pay $3+ per pound just in shipping costs.

So I'm trying to figure out the best way I can grow organically (and now High Brix), healthy and tasty.

Things like green sand, don't exist here that I'm aware of. There is volcanic rock — direct from the volcano. Is that usable?

So here's a question for you... If you were in my situation and wanted to grow like I do, what nutrients would you bring in for your first grow? (20 plants approx.)

Kelp Meal
Fish Bone Meal
Calcium Carbonate
rock phosphate
azomite
powdered humic acid

Any of the above not necessary?

What can I do to keep it simple, yet effective and organic?

Sorry about the late response. As far as gypsum. Yes it is used in construction, but not what were using with plants. You should be able to find gypsum at any gardening store or on the internet on azon or another source. It comes powderized or granular, I use the granular. The ratio of calcium carbonate, soft rock phosphate, gypsum we have been using successfully is a 6 - 5 - (2-3).

I haven't used bone or blood meal at all in any of my grows, not saying they may not be good. I know plenty of growers probably use them, I just never needed them because of the other additives I have been using. I will be adding alfalfa meal and fish bone meal as well as crab shell meal to my next soil mix...but its will be used in very little amounts. (I just want to see the difference with different calcium sources as well as the crab shell meal for the Chitin which stimulates plant health)

DocBud sells his kit, but it is only for use with ProMix HP. It is designed specificly for use in that soil and not other brands. So for his kit you have to have access to ProMix HP. If you can get it, I would highly suggest his method.

My goal when doing my soil is very high Calcium, very very low Potassium, mid-high Phosphorus, and lots of rocks (rock powders, sands, dusts) because I try to follow the guidlines of high brix growing (plenty of info on 420magazine about the details on this) read DocBud's journals, my 3rd journal, curso's journals, BigIrishDudes journals, and if I am forgetting some, please forgive me


Greensand is not needed, I just use it for the extra micronutrients but azamite will due for that purpose. Lava rock will not really help unless it is pulverized to sand/powder. At this size it is very good in low amounts because it has a high paramagnetic value and high CEC. Volcanic Pumice is great for this because of all the pores that help trap oxygen/water/ions and has a high CEC. I use both lava sand and volcanic pumice, but I take it easy on the lava sand because of the heavy metals in it.

All those ingredients seem fine for a great starter soil. I would suggest getting the gypsum if possible and use it in the ratio I mentioned above. The gypsum has sulfur which is great for the soil and the plants.


With those ingredients above you wont need any nutrients well into veg, at least a good 3-4 weeks. The best thing to do is let your soil "cook". Mix your ingredients in the soil and let it sit for a few weeks before planting. This will get the microbes started breaking down things and preparing nutrients for your plants. Speaking of microbes, see if you can find a good microbe source like some mychorrize fungi which seems pretty easy to get at any grow store or on the internet. Products like humboldt myco maximum, great white, orca...are good for adding beneficial soil life.

Also look into compost teas. In basic it is a bucket, and airstone and a nylon stocking filled with things like forest humus, guanos, alfalfa meal, soil, and bubbled with a carbo source like molasses for 24 hours... one of the best things to increase plant health, soil health and have happy organic plants. They also love it as a foliar spray..

 

[Output]

I really appreciate your response, Icemud.

 

[donpaul.p]

most garden centers sell bone meal and guano and its pretty cheap, the local £1 store near me sells boxes of each for £1 each, your recipee is along the lines of super soil and means you dont need to feed nutrients for the whole grow, so im sure you can get bonemeal if you shopped around, most garden centers or diy shops with an outdoor section will stock these and the costs are pretty low for this type of product.

i use nutrient from the sponsor dogget simpson, but i use off the shelf cheap compost from most super markets or big shopping stores, it cost me £2 per bag and that fills 2 big pots and my plants can go a long time with no nutrients, this time round the plants in fresh compost did great with no nutrients and went right up till i flipped 12-12, i only added nutrients then as im trying this new product, so off the shelf soil is ok for veg and you can also get some off the shelf nutrients if you start at very low doses but you would need something for veg and flower, you can get organic nutrients its what ive used all the time in the past,

super soil is the way to go and it does work wonders for these plants, makes life a lot easier but the super soil i was reading about needs to brew for a while before it can be used, icemud is spot on with his advice, just thought id add that most regular compost will easily go 2 weeks in a small pot and a further 2 or more after transplanting, mine went 6 to 7 weeks with no nutrients and plants still could of went further but as i flipped 12-12 i needed to change the nutrients in the soil so its more suited to flower stage

 

[Output]

Thanks donpaul.

I'm definitely going with super soil - and have purchased many nutrients to get it started.

When they arrive, I will get it mixed up and then let it sit for 30 days or so. Then we will see what kind of magic can be created.

 

[TG40]

Thanks donpaul.

I'm definitely going with super soil - and have purchased many nutrients to get it started.

When they arrive, I will get it mixed up and then let it sit for 30 days or so. Then we will see what kind of magic can be created.

Super soil is AWSOME, so simple, no ph'n water no mixing nutes. I'm using the exact mix you are, I would sugest following to the T if you can. It sounds like you are doing a HUGE crop. Here's the mix I used which I filled 7- 5 gallon pots with and I still have about 1/3 of a 50 gallon trash can fill.

 

[TG40]

Sorry, I did flip the picture, for some reason my iphone always does this.

 

[thebizz420]

I got a question on organic soil that Maybe you can answer. I'm a first time grower who has read alot about everything pertained to growing. I want to make my first grow a success. I'm considering a organic soil. It's exactly the same ingredients as the post above. My advice tells me that No nutrients will be needed throughout the grow if using this recipe. Is that entirely true. I like the idea of not having to add nuets.I want my plants to have everything they need to be healthy. Any suggestions and advice will be helpful