I don't know the answer to a question that I have about decarbing vs. vaporizing. For instance, CBDA has a boiling point of 120C while CBD has a boiling point of 180C. If fresh bud with CBDA is heated to 120C, does the CBDA vaporize? It should. But that is the temperature at which it is typically decarboxylated and this process is normally done for 60-90min so it is not instant. The boiling point of CBD is 180C; in a vaporizer set to 120C, does the CBDA vaporize quickly with only a small bit decarbing?? In a vaporizer set to 200C, does the CBDA vaporize as the bud warms to 120C? How much CBDA do you get. How much CBD?
Vaporizing vs Decarbing
- Thread starter WillCall
- Start date
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Hi WillCall,
I vape my homegrown THC, CBD, and CBG buds.
My PAX Mini operates in the range 380°F - 420°F, i.e. much higher than decarb temps.
The decarb temps I have in my memory bank are: THC 220° F, CBD 230°-245° F.
There is definitely decarb going on, on the fly. THCA is getting converted to THC, because I'm definitely experiencing THC effects. CBDA is getting converted to CBD, because I can definitely notice the CBD effects.
It all makes sense; however, a full decarb probably delivers more THC and CBD.
I think it's also true that if one smokes instead of vapes, there would be more decarb happening on the fly, but I don't have any data on that. Evidence for this is, to get equivalent effects to smoking, you need to take more vape hits.
Another factor is terpenes. If you were to decarb the buds first, and then vape them, terpenes are getting lost in the decarb process. Terpenes are highly volatile. The starting temperature for evaporation, for the monoterpenes, is usually described as 68° F. The temperature range for vaping, for the most common terpenes, is 311° F to 424° F, with beta-caryophyllene being the outlier at 493° F. The first hits on the vape are heavy on the terps.
I personally think that vaping is the way to go – it's much healthier.
I vape my homegrown THC, CBD, and CBG buds.
My PAX Mini operates in the range 380°F - 420°F, i.e. much higher than decarb temps.
The decarb temps I have in my memory bank are: THC 220° F, CBD 230°-245° F.
There is definitely decarb going on, on the fly. THCA is getting converted to THC, because I'm definitely experiencing THC effects. CBDA is getting converted to CBD, because I can definitely notice the CBD effects.
It all makes sense; however, a full decarb probably delivers more THC and CBD.
I think it's also true that if one smokes instead of vapes, there would be more decarb happening on the fly, but I don't have any data on that. Evidence for this is, to get equivalent effects to smoking, you need to take more vape hits.
Another factor is terpenes. If you were to decarb the buds first, and then vape them, terpenes are getting lost in the decarb process. Terpenes are highly volatile. The starting temperature for evaporation, for the monoterpenes, is usually described as 68° F. The temperature range for vaping, for the most common terpenes, is 311° F to 424° F, with beta-caryophyllene being the outlier at 493° F. The first hits on the vape are heavy on the terps.
I personally think that vaping is the way to go – it's much healthier.
- Thread starter
- #3
Thanks. Yeah, I am a vapor guy myself, grow Dinamed, Dinamed-Plus, Critical Mass CBD, SharkShockCBD (and some high THC types) in my garden each summer. I have an Arizer V-Tower and wish I wasn't too cheap to try the AirMax 2 for portability. I know you are right. It is just that the boiling points and decarb times suggest that a lot of the "-A" stuff should vaporize; I just don't know the kinetics. And no harm in that. I am a totally big fan of my CBDA raw unheated grain alcohol tinctures.
As for portable vaping, I just posted on my heat transfer vaping method. It was one of those "send that one in" moments. I hope I didn't offend everyone by following my instincts. I really haven't run into the method before. Maybe you might be interested.
As for portable vaping, I just posted on my heat transfer vaping method. It was one of those "send that one in" moments. I hope I didn't offend everyone by following my instincts. I really haven't run into the method before. Maybe you might be interested.
And yet another way to toke
I have looked around quite a bit and hope this doesn't duplicate some common knowledge method of toking. I'll just paste in something I wrote up and hope it is useful to someone. The picture is of a alcohol burner heating the small version of the copper tube heat transfer device. It heated 3 min...
www.420magazine.com
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
I did a lot more research last night on terpene evaporation and boiling points... HERE.
Fenderbender
Well-Known Member
Interesting!
I have a Pax 3 I use with a bong and a Dynavap and I must say the first drag on the Dynavap is hitting me harder than any joint, like you really need to close your eyes and enjoy the rush and ride for a minute and those first hits are mostly flavour.. so terpenes have a very important role and are pretty powerful.. vaping thyme also gives me a serious buzz.
I have a Pax 3 I use with a bong and a Dynavap and I must say the first drag on the Dynavap is hitting me harder than any joint, like you really need to close your eyes and enjoy the rush and ride for a minute and those first hits are mostly flavour.. so terpenes have a very important role and are pretty powerful.. vaping thyme also gives me a serious buzz.
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that! I just did a quick check and found that thyme contains many of the same terpenes found in cannabis, and here's a very cool chart showing that thyme plants increase production of terpenes when subject to drought! @Azimuth
Variation in Terpene Profiles of Thymus vulgaris in Water Deficit Stress Response
Thyme (Thymus spp.) volatiles predominantly consisting of monoterpenes and sesquiterpenes, serve as antimicrobial, antiseptic and antioxidant in phytomedicine. They also play a key role in plants as secondary metabolites via their potential role against ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Fenderbender
Well-Known Member
Yeah herbs are pretty powerful, like I just bought some tea concoction for respiratory ways includes thyme and sage and bunch of other stuff I don't know off the bat the English translation for.
But I'm noticing a clear effect after a couple days of usage at the quality of mucus, clearing out airways is definitely more active.. and it's not like I'm experiencing a cold right now, it's just cold winter, the clouds are basically on the ground as it's just equal gray everywhere and the air is thick so I thought I'll use some of that and I can clearly tell it's influencing something.
But I'm noticing a clear effect after a couple days of usage at the quality of mucus, clearing out airways is definitely more active.. and it's not like I'm experiencing a cold right now, it's just cold winter, the clouds are basically on the ground as it's just equal gray everywhere and the air is thick so I thought I'll use some of that and I can clearly tell it's influencing something.
CBDa is said to be much better absorbed by the body than CBD, something like 10x better or more so there are definitely health benefits to a not fully decarbed product anyway. I have read that CBDa also very readily converts over so it's tough for scientists to study the acidic version of that cannabinoid.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Heck, I've got Rosemary, Thyme, and Sage in my garage tent right now. 
Herbs brought inside at the start of freezing temps. to try and save them for next year. We use a lot of Rosemary and Thyme in our food.
Not much Sage use, but the wife likes it for more holistic things.
Herbs brought inside at the start of freezing temps. to try and save them for next year. We use a lot of Rosemary and Thyme in our food. Not much Sage use, but the wife likes it for more holistic things.- Thread starter
- #11
I have had my bud tested by a lab 9 mo after storage at cool room temperature and it is still almost entirely CBDA. I think I know the work you are talking about - some lab/producer wants you to believe that you need their modified version. Why does my stored bud not convert? I think they just want to to believe that. I store my bud very dry. That "62% humidity" stuff is about cigar humidors and slow burning. Dry bud keeps just fine and it vaporizes better without having to boil off a lot of moisture.
This article covers the "CBDA instability" thing. This is a commercial scare tactic to make people think that only their methyl-ester stabilized derivative is any good. Just ain't so....
CBDA Vs CBD: What Are the Differences?
It's the precursor of CBD, but does CBDA have the same properties and promise as its more famous cannabis creation?
www.analyticalcannabis.com
And while we are talking CBDA, here is a paper I ran across that makes a big pitch for full-spectrum CBD overcoming the Bell curve of dose/response for effectiveness, compared to purified CBD.
-----------------
Pharmacology & Pharmacy, 2015, 6, 75‐85
Published Online February 2015 in SciRes. Pharmacology & Pharmacy - SCIRP
----------------------------
Problem is that they never heated their extract! Carefully read their methods (section 2.1). Tell me if you see where they heated it. They concentrate on a Rotary Vacuum device and don't specify the temperature, but ordinarily the temperature is very mild and the vacuum does the evaporation. They are very careful with temperature in other respects. They use a Look at Fig 1 a, the Thin Layer Chromatogram on the left of Fig 1. The large red blob for CBDA... much more than CBD. They are pitching the idea that their extract which includes terps is more effective than purified CBD but, in fact, they are also using a prep with high CBDA! Perfect evidence for CBDA!!!!! The researchers were unaware of what they did. I tried to contact the authors, and the journal, and <<crickets>>; that would imply bad science and bad reviewing.
I only use my CBDA tincture, never reach for the Ibuprophen. CBDA is like Celebrex, supresses COX2 (pain) without messing with COX1 (gut problems).
Cheers!
Thank you for that. Good info.
I've taken to using most of my harvest as Dust. I make up a blend of 40% each CBD and CBDa, and 5% each CBG, CBGa, THC, and THCa. Then I sprinkle that on food, mix it in with smoothies, yogurt, on cereal in the morning, pretty much anything.
I used to soak the dried, chopped bud in olive oil but that's a much more limited delivery vehicle. Not gonna put that on my morning cereal, that's for sure!
I've taken to using most of my harvest as Dust. I make up a blend of 40% each CBD and CBDa, and 5% each CBG, CBGa, THC, and THCa. Then I sprinkle that on food, mix it in with smoothies, yogurt, on cereal in the morning, pretty much anything.
I used to soak the dried, chopped bud in olive oil but that's a much more limited delivery vehicle. Not gonna put that on my morning cereal, that's for sure!
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Interesting article. Here's a post I made recently about the degradation of THCA into Δ9-THC – could be some parallels...
Post-Harvest Trichomes and Light
We hear the admonition all the time about drying and curing your bud out of the light but I'm wondering if there is any real science to this. Or, more specifically, does the intensity of the light matter? I get that strong sunlight or even grow lights could negatively impact trichomes as I...
www.420magazine.com
We know also that THC degrades into CBN over time. But what does CBD degrade to? It turns out, also CBN, but some surprises as well. Here's a 2023 article that talks about that...
The Degradation Pathways of Cannabinoids and How to Manage Them – Part 1
In the first of two articles, scientists from Broughton, a regulatory consultancy currently focused on EU and UK cannabis regulation, discuss the susceptibility of cannabinoids to degrade and summarize the main degradation pathways of THC and CBD.
www.analyticalcannabis.com
I also store my buds very dry, as in crispy... much better in the grinder. I use several small moisture packets in a quart jar, to finish out the drying. I've found that it's the amount of resin in them that correlates to lots of vapor. Last night I vaped some of my recent Humboldt Dream and was pleasantly surprised at how much vapor was generated. (PAX mini)
Good eye there!
What CBD strain is that from? It's about what I get with my legacy phenos. I got 15% from Sweet Critical last summer.I only use my CBDA tincture, never reach for the Ibuprophen. CBDA is like Celebrex, supresses COX2 (pain) without messing with COX1 (gut problems).
Cheers!
I have yet to start making tinctures, but fully intend to.
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
I can see the boxed organic granola on the shelf now! Fruity Moon Dust!
Yeah man... cannabinoids are like vitamins!
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Chinese herbs? Is ma huang in there? Ephedra... very effective ancient Chinese herb. Of course it was banned by the FDA in 2004, but apparently one can still buy seeds legally in the U.S.
That's the first time I've read that CBD degrades to THC.
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Me too...That's the first time I've read that CBD degrades to THC.
A 2020 NIH article states:
Fenderbender
Well-Known Member
Nope it's some French stuff.. Thymus Vulgaris, Malva Sylvestris, Sambucus Nigra, Salvia Officinalis (which is my preferred one, screw that Divinorum ripping my soul out of my body like that only to find myself at an airport in the 80's? and then spend 5 minutes trying to figure out what the heck you're seeing to finally figure it out after a lot of effort and well it's just the room you are in)
Glycyrrhiza Glabra which is Licorice like the sweet wood and Primula Veris which is Primrose I think.
FDA didn't they raid places for raw milk? and oh that proposition 65 from Cali, that's printed on stuff on this side of the ocean as well these days.. my studio monitors are cancer causing according to it.. ah the terpene mycrene as well, probably the others too.
As for the vape how long are the things that are vaporised effective? and well convection vapes as then you kinda extract on the draw so you inhale all the compounds that get vaped.. with conductive vapes I can see compounds escaping into the air but also depending on the design as well the things that get volatile before you reach the temperature are in the vape and you get them with the first drag no?
- Thread starter
- #19
That is Dinafem Dinamed, the original. I bought 3 seeds, this is seed #1 (others in reserve). I also have a Dinamed Plus plant that was given by a friend that I keep also; surprisingly, had only about the same CBD - could be the season or my choice of harvest date, or just seed to seed variability of pheno. But the Dinamed Plus is crazy with terps - 2.4% and high in a couple of unusual ones - Camphene and Guaiol along with the usual Myrcene and Pinenes. Again, this is 5mo post harvest with negligible CBDA spontaneous decarboxylation, just stored in a Homer pail in a cool cellar. We need to be careful accepting any pronouncements about doom and gloom for out garden harvest when it comes from anyone with a commercial interest in selling you an alternative.
cbdhemp808
Well-Known Member
Very interesting terps there... looking at the percents. This is the first time I've seen camphene up that high, .57%, and guaiol as well, .36%. You've got total pinene of .60%. Meanwhile, caryophyllene and limonene are on the low side. But myrcene is up there as well. Very interesting. I would guess that this pheno is quite leaf mold resistant. Possibly also bud rot resistant. (Keeping in mind that another pheno of Dinamed Plus may have a completely different terp profile.)
Thanks for this, because it's the first time I have realized that both camphene and guaiol can be considered "pine terpenes" – they are both found in pine trees and/or other conifers. So you've got in this case a pine/non-pine ratio of 1.53%/0.77%. Yet terpinolene is not dominant, as is typical for a lot of pine-terp dominant phenos, and there's no terpinene or terpineol. (I have been correlating terpinolene dominance with bud rot resistance.) This is an eye opener for me, for my research in this area.
It looks like camphene being this high is very rare. Out of 169 strains in Kannapedia, 124 contain some measurable camphene. Of those, only 16 have camphene above 0.02%, and the highest is Shark Shock at 0.027%. Lo and behold, Shark Shock is high in CBD at 9%, but also contains THC 7.6%. (Shark Shock is a chemotype II, while your Dinamed Plus is chemotype III). I'll make a guess now that camphene being above, say 0.05%, may only occur in chemotype III plants – high CBD and THC < 1%.
(I may add some more to this post, but I'll leave it there for now.)
