Weasel Forges Ahead

[Weaselcracker]

AK I did consider trying to graft a couple plants this way- because in the one screwed up graft I did (the first one) - the plants sort of did that- just glommed together in one spot, because they were close to each other and felt like doing it.
It goes against the idea of 'stem tissues lining up', but I have a feeling that as long as the barrier of the outer stem was removed (by slicing or scraping as described) the plants would find a way to make things happen and line those tissues up themselves.
I meant it try this tonight, but I found out that I can't find any plants that are right for doing this right now. They're mostly too small or there are other concerns. I'll try it when I get a chance.
I haven't seen trees grow together much. At least here they don't but it's windy here a lot- so they'd be moving all the time which makes it tricky They do make an effort, and get very close, but the trunks will be separate and don't share the same bark.

I did see it once- commented on it in my first journal. Where a tree split and then grew back together seamlessly further up- creating an eye-loop in the trunk.

Grizz I've been wondering if the grafted plant strains are starting to take on a more uniform look. It's very hard to tell the three strains apart now and I know it wasn't in the beginning. But - disclaimer- 'maybe I was stoned'. I'll know more for sure when it flowers.


Peyote Purple (aka Bubba Kush) starting to change colour a bit now (wtf -really?) 6 weeks flowering. Seems like it should be further along but whatever...

 

[Skybound]

WC - can you splice part of a male plant onto a female or vice-a-versa for seed production, or would the seeds be less stable than traditional fem stocks? Aside from the art of it, I'm having a hard time understanding why growers graft?

 

[Gree N]

I've witnessed Mother Nature perform a grafting procedure first hand. Well not sure if it was technically grafting? But the tree ended up having two root systems and one canopy which quickly outgrew all its competitors within a year.
There was a small tree about 2-3 metres and another right next to it within a metre roughly 6-7 metres. It was at a big resort I used to work at and these tree's were in the designated smoking area which I would frequent all the time.
We had a big storm and when I was in the smoking area the day after I could see that the bigger tree was hit with lightning and had a split at a 15 degree angle too the centre of the tree about 2-3 metres up the trunk and the smaller tree that was growing within a metre of it had found itself wedged into the split.
I admired how nature worked this marvel together. Within 2-3 months the split healed over and the smaller tree was connected to it. It took about 6 months and the smaller tree shed all its leaves and branches and was just a trunk connected to the larger trunk.
After about a year later the trunk from the smaller tree was almost as fat as the the trunk it was connected too, the trunk from the smaller tree started growing like a banana shape so it's trunk was vertically along side the original tree. (Let me stop here and draw a crappy picture because this is impossible to explain .)
6 months

12 months

Would love sneaking a pipe in and having a chuff when no one was around and admiring natures Handywork on my breaks.
They were both small gum tree's.

Sorry for the long winded story haha but I have always loved Mother Nature and enjoy going on bush walks and just looking at monster 50-500+ year old tree's.

 

[Weaselcracker]

Thanks for the cool story and drawing Gree!

Geez, if you guys keep asking me questions about grafting and sending me off to google like this, eventually I will know something about it.

I went into the grafting thing almost completely blind. I read a comment from Cannafan on someone's thread, where she pasted in something she found about a hypothetical way of grafting two living stems together like this. I googled it but couldn't find anything. I found some talk of the traditional grafting methods - which involve completely cutting the scion free- like a clone cutting, then splicing it into the rootstock. It seems to need daily nurturing and a humidity dome, which sounded impossible for my situation. So I just tried the easier looking method.

Anyway- I've googled grafting since. But not very much. So my answer is still a little vague, Skybound.

In my case I'm mainly doing it for fun and interest- though actual usefulness may come into it, I am thinking.

One idea for cannabis grafting that I read, and seemed a little far fetched at the time, is to have a multi strain mother, and/or multi strain plants in flower- to bring down the plant count. But now that I see how easy it is to do this- there's really no reason why it can't be totally practical. Combine that with the air-layering cloning method we were talking about- and you can have a large number of strains growing, and clones rooting, with only one plant in the room. I know can be done quite easily and isn't farfetched at all- though I haven't done the air-layering part yet. A person could even have a viable clone business and still have very small plant numbers.

Anyway- courtesy of google, I found out that grafting is extremely common in many crops. It's standard procedure in a lot of horticulture. Almost all citrus crops are grafted, as well as many, if not most, tree fruit crops in general. Also roses.
Apparently most trees do not clone reliably the way some herbaceous plants do. The layering method ( enhancing the conditions around a stem so that they will grow roots out of this spot, then cutting it free) is still a better option than cloning for these trees. But grafting is apparently the best method.
The standard practice is to graft a desirable variety (scion) on to what is basically the stump of another desirable (rootstock) strain. The rootstock is chosen for certain attributes. These attributes are incorporated in the scion after that. For example- some varieties are highly resistant to certain diseases, and these are used as rootstock while the scions are chosen for their fruiting qualities. The result will have the desirable qualities of both.
If grafted on to a dwarf rootstock- the tree will grow as a dwarf. This is common practice to make smaller trees which are easy to pick.
Also- grafted plants have some sort of extra vigor and better/faster growth. Also (I think) a scion grafted on to a mature rootstock will fruit at a much younger age than it would if it grew from seed.

So basically it's used as a type of cloning method to create (as usual) large scale monoculture type orchards. The scions are cuttings of a chosen special variety chosen for fruit production qualities. The rootstocks are another variety chosen for hardiness, size, disease resistance, etc.

Grafting is a good way to get the best advantages of two varieties, in one plant.
The one thing I don't fully understand is -why grafting is a better route to take than breeding. Why can't two varieties be bred together to incorporate the best of the two varieties? Well- chances are that it just takes way too long and isn't as reliable as it could be - as any breeder could probably attest.

At this point I haven't really delved into most of the practical reasons for grafting. I'm just curious to see if it makes a beautiful and interesting looking plant in flower. And I can think of some really interesting creative weirdness that a person could do with it.

Check out this guy's work. More Crooked Forests: Axel Erlandson, the Tree Tinkerer from the 1920s, and His Surviving Work - Core77 Very interesting.


And this- explains better than I did. Fruit tree propagation - Wikipedia

 

[Skybound]

Grafting is a good way to get the best advantages of two varieties, in one plant.
The one thing I don't fully understand is -why grafting is a better route to take than breeding. Why can't two varieties be bred together to incorporate the best of the two varieties? Well- chances are that it just takes way too long and isn't as reliable as it could be - as any breeder could probably attest.

Ok, that makes much more sense now. In breeding, it would take a long time to pheno hunt for parents that show ideal characteristics, and then I believe, it's still somewhat hit or miss if the seeds produced will each perform to the breeder's preferences. And even if that is a 'yes' most of the time, there's always that chance that you get the odd ball pheno. I can see now grafting would circumvent most, if not all of that. Thanks for the quick lesson man!

 

[AKgramma]

Good find, WC!

Unless one has grown shrubs and trees, esp for crops, but started out with flowers and weed, they won't be familiar with grafting. As you have shared, it is a widely-used method for woody plants, to get the crop one wants (usually highly selected and delicate) but with the sturdy rootstock of a more hardy variety.

Granny Smith apples, for example, can't be grown out with large apples using the seeds. It requires grafting cuttings onto the proper rootstock.

 

[bobsacamano]

DUDE.

seriously.

 

[bobsacamano]

Grizz I've been wondering if the grafted plant strains are starting to take on a more uniform look. It's very hard to tell the three strains apart now and I know it wasn't in the beginning. But - disclaimer- 'maybe I was stoned'. I'll know more for sure when it flowers.

 

[GrizzWald]

Reading that, the rootstock has major influence on what's grafted to it.. wonder if same for cannabis. An out of control nevhaz onto a hardy bubba kush rootstock might control stretch? As long as doesn't turn flowers into a cross..

 

[Gree N]

Reading that, the rootstock has major influence on what's grafted to it.. wonder if same for cannabis. An out of control nevhaz onto a hardy bubba kush rootstock might control stretch? As long as doesn't turn flowers into a cross..

Wow I really love that theory, Only one way to find out. Let's try it!

 

[Tead]

Oh good Lord all this grafting banter just seems like work to a lazy gardener.... tho I'm diggin the dual root system thoughts.
Perhaps some day I'll hear the calling... but today, Tead just wants to make bigger plants.

 

[SweetSue]

Yeah I heard of air layering once, even saw a picture of it, but can't really find where. Basically the score off the skin to get to the xylem, like some people recommend to do to a cut before putting it in whatever rooting media that's going to be used. However, like you're saying they do it to a branch that's alive and attached to that plant, and then they tape a tea-bag around it, pack potting soil in the teabag around the stem, and then seal the bag off. Once they see roots popping out of the bag they know they can snip it and plant it.

I think it might also help appease plant count laws if you have your clones on one single plant.

I'd like to try some of this grafting and maybe some air-layering some day, but for now I'm just trying to keep myself supplied some medicine. The colloidal silver is about the most advance stuff I've done yet.

Graytail once directed me to a thread that had successful air-layering. I'll ask him for that reference again. It was a Black Domina, but I can't remember the member that grew her.

 

[Gauge Steel]

sweet discussion,
I can really see the value of grafting especially in a MJ "mother plant" I could keep her in veg indef and take clones whenever i wanted that strain.
Why Grafting over Breeding? My opinion is the life cycle of a fruit tree is way too long to establish a stable marketable fruit by the standard germinated seed technique. Having to wait till each parent and then offspring to mature to fruit to see results and gather seed is just way too long. Of course this breeding does happen however grafting allows all the good stuff mentioned by you all, with results usually seen in a season or two. MJ on the other hand can be bred at a much faster rate.

My 2cents

Gauge

 

[Tead]

sweet discussion,
Why Grafting over Breeding?

'cause Weas likes to play... and we like to watch!

2othercents.

 

[Graytail]

Graytail once directed me to a thread that had successful air-layering. I'll ask him for that reference again. It was a Black Domina, but I can't remember the member that grew her.

The one I remembered was on jon705's thread (a Master grower). There's some good detail, and the entire thread is worth reading for anyone with extra time on his hands. This guy knows what he's doing.

Jon705's Multi Strain HPS LED Hybrid System

Here's the day he started them:

Jon705's Multi Strain HPS LED Hybrid System

 

[TheFertilizer]

Well so when you graft one plant on to the other, doesn't the grafted plant retain its characteristics and the plant it was grafted onto just supply the root system?

So if you grafted Plant A onto Plant B, do you just get what you'd normally get from Plant A, or a mix between Plant A and B, more like a Plant C?

Rumor has it some people around here grafted some cannabis plant onto a hopps plant, but from what I heard it didn't actually effect anything.

 

[SnarlyWeed]

Rumor has it some people around here grafted some cannabis plant onto a hopps plant, but from what I heard it didn't actually effect anything.

Betcha it makes a good beer though! Damn, why did I quit drinkng?

 

[Weaselcracker]

Apparently the two strains involved in a graft do not carry on as usual after being grafted together. There is influence from both the rootstock and scion, but from what I've read and been told, the rootstock kind of calls the shots in many ways. For example the Panama (rootstock) is quite a heavy feeder and needs up to twice the amount of food the Malawi and Mama Thai do. Originally I worried about having issues with that, but so far they're all fine on the same feed level. However, veg is easy and the real proof will be in the blooming as usual.
This influence is not actual genetic mingling, and ends when the two plants are separated. Growing out the seeds of a grafted apple plant will probably get you a quite different apple than the one you got the seed from.

Yes- what Gree said. I'm very keen to try some of this stuff. I tried to reply to Grizz last night to say exactly that, but was so tired and cooked from smoking that high CBD stuff all day, that I just stared at the screen for a while and went to bed instead.

Some really interesting ideas. Maybe my PC could be given a surgical makeover by chopping her off and giving her a new body- maybe she'd start behaving better?

Now that I've gutted my veg room of course I'm missing those dearly departed plants, because I really don't have much here to play Frankenstein with. I do have the GTs and Honduras(es) (Honduri ?). Mostly unsexed still though. Those are quite stretchy plants- maybe I can graft one on to a stockier one like Peyote Purple. I'll just have to wait till some of the veg plants get a bit bigger, before messing around more.

I did chase down that hops/cannabis rabbit hole once- many years ago and long before I tried grafting. Dial-up internet as I recall...
From what I read- it sounds like they were grafted together with limited success, but it wasn't easy and the results weren't anything amazing. Pot and hops are related but maybe not closely enough to make this an easy match.
Another graft possibility, much better documented, is grafting tomato plants on to potato plants. Both from the nightshade family, grafting these two would give you potatoes below ground and tomatoes above on the same plant, though it might not do wonders for the flavour of your tomatoes.
I'm going to go stick a seed potato in the greenhouse right now. (Edit- done)

Thanks everyone for all the input, and Graytail for the link and the visit.

I've been smoking and vaping a lot of the CBD Therapy the last few days. Usually combined with some sativa like Mama Thai or Malawi, but not always. It definitely brings a sense of well being. Sort of a peaceful, sedated, languid sort of high along with it.
I could imagine that this is the sort of feeling a lot of people get normally anyway when smoking indicas. The CBD Therapy for me gives a relaxed glow but doesn't bring with it some of the other problems I get from indica, which keep me from smoking it, like severe paranoia, anxiety, confusion, red eyes.

As for pain- my sense is that yes it helps quite a lot, but it's a hard thing to quantify. I'm almost certain that it does help though- so that's an open door into experimenting with the stuff and trying other methods like RSO or CCO oil or whatever the kids are calling that stuff these days.

Been super busy working on stuff at home. Felt nicely stoned and peaceful but functional all day every day. Also I must say I've been overwhelmingly sleepy by midnight every night- which is weird but probably good. It's cut into my 420 time because that's usually when I'm on here the most.

I'm off to start trimming the hexapus plants- so I'll post about those later.

 

[nivek]

What is a midnight? I think I read about those once but I forget. Maybe when I get younger I will remember.

 

[Weaselcracker]

Normally for me it's around the time that work slows down and I come inside the house and start cleaning up and making breakfast.