Building A Better Soil: Demonstrations & Discussions Of Organic Soil Recipes

[GodOfPot]

Hey all....I'm trying to find a list/link or some information on breakdown times for different amendments, not sure if such a compilation exists or not, hopefully someone could point me in the right direction
Trying to understand how long it takes for say crushed oyster shells to break down vs powder, trying to find a list or something that would have information like this compiled on all different amendments.

Also, posted this in a members thread a couple weeks ago, something I came across while searching for those who may be interested, figure this is a good place to share it

This is taken from another site;
N-P-K of organic amendments.

Alfalfa Hay: 2.45/05/2.1
Apple Fruit: 0.05/0.02/0.1
Apple Leaves: 1.0/0.15/0.4
Apple Pomace: 0.2/0.02/0.15
Apple skins(ash) : 0/3.0/11/74
Banana Residues (ash): 1.75/0.75/0.5
Barley (grain): 0/0/0.5
Barley (straw): 0/0/1.0
Basalt Rock: 0/0/1.5
Bat Guano: 5.0-8.0/4.0-5.0/1.0
Beans, garden(seed and hull): 0.25/0.08/03
Beet Wastes: 0.4/0.4/0.7-4.1
Blood meal: 15.0/0/0
Bone Black: 1.5/0/0
Bonemeal (raw): 3.3-4.1/21.0/0.2
Bonemeal (steamed): 1.6-2.5/21.0/0.2
Brewery Wastes (wet): 1.0/0.5/0.05
Buckwheat straw: 0/0/2.0
Cantaloupe Rinds (ash): 0/9.77/12.0
Castor pomace: 4.0-6.6/1.0-2.0/1.0-2.0
Cattail reeds and water lily stems: 2.0/0.8/3.4
Cattail Seed: 0.98/0.25/0.1
Cattle Manure (fresh): 0.29/0.25/0.1
Cherry Leaves: 0.6/0/0.7
Chicken Manure (fresh): 1.6/1.0-1.5/0.6-1.0
Clover: 2/0/0/0 (also contains calcium)
Cocoa Shell Dust: 1.0/1.5/1.7
cocoa hulls: 3-1-3.2 (not to mention lots of humic acids and trace elements)
Coffee Grounds: 2.0/0.36/0.67
Corn (grain): 1.65/0.65/0.4
Corn (green forage): 0.4/0.13/0.33
Corn cobs: 0/0/2.0
Corn Silage: 0.42/0/0
Cornstalks: 0.75/0/0.8
Cottonseed hulls (ash): 0/8.7/23.9
Cottonseed Meal: 7.0/2.0-3.0/1.8
Cotton Wastes (factory): 1.32/0.45/0.36
Cowpea Hay: 3.0/0/2.3
Cowpeas (green forage): 0.45/0.12/0.45
Cowpeas (seed): 3.1/1.0/1.2
Crabgrass (green): 0.66/0.19/0.71
Crabs (dried, ground): 10.0/0/0 (I personally just crush the shells with my foot)
Crabs (fresh): 5.0/3.6/0.2
Cucumber Skins (ash): 0/11.28/27.2 ( WOW!!!! Who knew???)
Dried Blood: 10.0-14.0/1.0-5.0/0
Duck Manure (fresh): 1.12/1.44/0.6
Eggs: 2.25/0.4/0.15
Eggshells: 1.19/0.38/0.14
Feathers: 15.3/0/0
Felt Wastes: 14.0/0/1.0
Field Beans (seed): 4.0/1.2/1.3
Feild Beans (shells): 1.7/0.3/1.3
Fish (dried, ground): 8.0/7.0/0
Fish Scraps (fresh): 6.5/3.75/0
Gluten Meal: 6.4/0/0
Granite Dust: 0/0/3.0-5.5
Grapefruit Skins (ash): 0/3.6/30.6 (And people throw these things away? Wow!)
Grape Leaves: 0.45/0.1/0.4
Grape Pomace: 1.0/0.07/0.3
Grass (imature): 1.0/0/1.2
Greensand: 0/1.5/7.0
Hair: 14/0/0/0
Hoof and Horn Meal: 12.5/2.0/0
Horse Manure (fresh): 0.44/0.35/0.3
Incinerator Ash: 0.24/5.15/2.33
Insect Frass (Raw): 2-2-2
Jellyfish (dried): 4.6/0/0
Kentucky Bluegrass (green): 0.66/0.19/0.71
Kentucky Bluegrass (hay): 1.2/0.4/2.0
Leather Dust: 11.0/0/0
Lemon Culls: 0.15/0.06/0.26
Lemon Skins (ash): 06.33/1.0
Lobster Refuse: 4.5/3.5/0
Milk: 0.5/0.3/0.18
Millet Hay: 1.2/0/3.2
Molasses Residue (From alcohol manufacture): 0.7/0/5.32
Molasses Waste (From Sugar refining): 0/0/3.0-4.0
Mud (fresh water): 1.37/0.26/0.22
Mud (harbour): 0.99/0.77/0.05
Mud (salt): 0.4.0/0
Mussels: 1.0/0.12/0.13
Nutshells: 2.5/0/0
Oak Leaves: 0.8/0.35/0.2
Oats (grain): 2.0/0.8/0.6
Oats (green fodder): 0.49/0/0
Oat straw: 0/0/1.5
Olive Pomace: 1.15/0.78/1.3
Orange Culls: 0.2/0.13/0.21
Orange Skins: 0/3.0/27.0 (Right up there with Grapefruit. Note: both can attract fruit flies so, bury them in the compost)
Oyster Shells: 0.36/0/0
Peach Leaves: 0.9/0.15/0.6
Pea forage: 1.5-2.5/0/1.4
Peanuts (seed/kernals): 3.6/0.7/0.45
Peanut Shells: 3.6/0.15/0.5 (I grind them up in the food processor first)
Pea Pods (ash): 0/3.0/9.0 (I cut them up with a pair of scissors while shelling them)
Pea (vines): 0.25/0/0.7
Pear Leaves: 0.7/0/0.4
Pigeon manure (fresh): 4.19/2.24/1.0
Pigweed (rough): 0.6/0.1/0
Pine Needles: 0.5/0.12/0.03
Potato Skins (ash): 0/5.18/27.5
Potaote Tubers: 0.35/0.15/2.5
Potatoe Vines (dried): 0.6/0.16/1.6
Prune Refuse: 0.18/0.07/0.31
Pumpkins (fresh): 0.16/0.07/0.26
Rabbitbrush (ash): 0/0/13.04
Rabbit Manure: 2.4/1.4/0.6
Ragweed: 0.76/0.26/0
Rapeseed meal: 0/1.0=2.0/1.0=3.0
Raspberry leaves: 1.45/0/0.6
Red clover hay: 2.1/0.6/2.1
Redrop Hay: 1.2/0.35/1.0
Rock and Mussel Deposits From Ocean: 0.22/0.09/1.78
Roses (flowers): 0.3/0.1/0.4
Rye Straw: 0/0/1.0
Salt March Hay: 1.1/0.25/0.75
Sardine Scrap: 8.0/7.1/0
Seaweed (dried): 1.1-1.5/0.75/4.9 (Seaweed is loaded with micronutrients including: Boron, Iodine, Magnesium and so on.)
Seaweed (fresh): 0.2-0.4/0/0
Sheep and Goat Manure (fresh): 0.55/0.6/0.3
Shoddy and Felt: 8.0/0/0
Shrimp Heads (dried): 7.8/4.2/0
Shrimp Wastes: 2.9/10.0/0
Siftings From Oyster Shell Mounds: 0.36/10.38/0.09
Silk Mill Wastes: 8.0/1.14/1.0
Silkworm Cocoons:10.0/1.82/1.08
Sludge: 2.0/1.9/0.3
Sludge (activated): 5.0/2.5-4.0/0.6
Smokehouse/Firepit Ash:0/0/4.96 (I put the ashes from my smoker in the pile)
Sorghum Straw:0/0/1.0
Soybean Hay: 1.5-3.0/0/1.2-2.3
Starfish: 1.8/0.2/0.25 (I'm not saying: "Go out and decimate starfish populations at our local beaches" but, the odd starfish would be okay. Incidentally, the edndoskeletons of starfish are made of Calcium Carbonate which, is slow to break down.)
String Beans (strings and stems, ash): 0/4.99/18.0 (Why we throw this stuff away? I have no idea. Look at all that potash!)
Sugar Wastes (raw): 2.0/8.0/0
Sweet Potatoes: 0.25/0.1/0.5
Swine Manure (fresh): 0.6/0.45/0.5
Tanbark Ash: 0/0.34/3.8
Tanbark Ash (spent): 0/1.75/2.0
Tankage: 3.0-11.0/2.0-5.0/0
Tea Grounds: 4.15/0.62/0.4
Timothy Hay: 1.2/0.55/1.4
Tobacco Leaves: 4.0/0.5/6.0
Tobacco Stems: 2.5-3.7/0.6-0.9/4.5-7.0
Tomatoe Fruit: 0.2/0.07/0.35 (A note on tomatoe fruit: These should be hot composted. I just let any rotted or insect eaten tomatoes compost in the soil beneath the plants and have "freebees" come back each consecutive year. Hot composting will kill the seeds.)
Tomatoe Leaves: 0.35/0.1/0.4
Tomatoe Stalks: 0.35/0.1/0.5
Tung Oil Pumace: 6.1/0/0
Vetch Hay: 2.8/0/2.3
Waste Silt: 9.5/0/0
Wheat Bran: 2.4/2.9/1.6
Wheat (grain): 2.0/0.85/0.5
Wheat Straw: 0.5/0.15/0.8
White Clover (Green): 0.5/0.2/0.3
Winter Rye Hay: 0/0/1.0
Wood Ash: 0/1.0-2.0/6.0-10.0 (A note on Wood ash: Wood Ash can contain chemicals that could harm plants and also carcinogens so, they should be composted in moderation)
Wool Wastes: 3.5-6.0/2.0-4.0/1.0-3.5

 

[ilikemsticky]

theres a lot of info there o pot thanks for that!

 

[bobrown14]

G-o-P -

We I can tell you this, and I'm not sure if its helpful for what you are looking for or not but I'm going to thro it out there:

ANY amendment added to your compost/worm bin will be ready after the season is done. For me that's 1 year. You can add every amendment on your list, add them into your compost bin and guaranteed its going to be plant ready for plant uptake as soon as you dig it out and screen it.

So you have that... which actually is the best way to break down amendments - let the worms do the heavy lifting.

If you really wanna know say how long it takes to break down amendments as you add them into your soil mix, well that depends.

Basically when we talk about "cooking" the soil for a few weeks after we mix it up. What we are really talking about is composting. The difference is we are not adding in more ingredients as we go like we do with a compost bin/pile. What we are doing is adding some meals to an already developed micro-herd via the humus portion of your soil mix. That will have a lot of micro-organisms in there already working on breaking down the soil further. We mix in some amendments and they start breaking down right a way.

The soil will warm up some, that's where the term "cooking" came from, we don't want to add new tender roots when the micro-herd are on a feeding frenzy. The feeding frenzy tends to warm things up enough to hurt tender young plant roots. An established plant will do fine in a new mix while everything is composting but not seedlings/new cuts or young plants (under a month).

You'd be surprised how quick material gets broken down by worms and bacteria. I've completely filled my 170 gal compost bin with Comfrey leaves and in a week it's all gone.... by gone I mean completely broken down into castings. Comfrey is a green manure so the compost heats up for sure, probably to like 150F for a short time then everything is broken down. Bacteria heat things up, the worms move to the margins and they eat it all up and multiply like no tomorrow.

So most meals I would say 2 weeks.

Calcium products like Oyster Shell come in coarse fine and flour... we like to use a mix of all 3. The flour will be pretty much ready as is..
Powders or fines are medium to slow release - the coarser grains take longer say 1-2 growing seasons (in containers).

The shells and or say Lobster/crab meals have all 3 - flour, fines and coarse so that could take the coarse particles 3-4 cycles in containers. Outdoors it takes maybe 60 days for coarse to break down spread on your property.

In containers indoors the breakdown timing is different than outside. The difference being mother nature is much more efficient at breaking things down. How we get granite dust from granite mountains... wouldn't have good soil without it (silica source among other goodies).. That and trees. Trees are the masters of the soil.

So the granite dusts don't break down per se, they are a place for micro-organisms to live. As as side benefit the granite dust form some cations (and how clay is formed) and also some trace micro-nutrients. Slow release .. Then we could go into the whole types of clay and all the cations that form and how they interact with soil and plants.

People get doctorates on this topic. Rightly so, its how we feed more people with the same amount of land or even less land.

For what we do here, its compost that really makes the difference. We get the compost dialed in ... sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

We can purchase good compost, and WE can make the best compost in the world for cheap right in our back yard. Don't have a back yard, someone does that lives near you and they are making compost... I'll put my last gold dollar on that.

Since making compost is literally free, it's a good resource to share with others. We always have extra.

See a leaf pile that's been around a while in someones yard ... we can clean that up for you!! Leaf mold is one of the best composts there is - goes back to the trees are the masters of soil.

Round and round it goes...a lot longer that we humans have been around, for billions of years longer actually.

 

[GodOfPot]

Thank you Bob, ton of awesome info in there as usual

 

[bobrown14]

Thank you Bob, ton of awesome info in there as usual

thank you for thanking me and my only wish is that more people would ask and wonder about this process.
I absolutely LOVE Composting. It's sooo easy and our plants go wild.

Composting: All it takes commitment and time, same as gardening. Neglecting is actually beneficial!

 

[TheFertilizer]

I got my soil test results back yesterday, it's looking pretty good, but I wish they would have tested the nitrogen level. I'll probably just stick with my main recipe and go lower on the neem seed meal since I have been seeing burnt tips with it.

 

[Guy Cavallero]

I got my soil test results back yesterday, it's looking pretty good, but I wish they would have tested the nitrogen level. I'll probably just stick with my main recipe and go lower on the neem seed meal since I have been seeing burnt tips with it.

I'm building my soil in the New Year, didn't really realize that some of the amendments that I thought had a particular purpose ( ie Neem meal to aid in insect control) might have an adverse effect on PH etc as they decompose etc. Guess the ratios are super important after all. That being said, I'm having a hell of a time locating sources in Canada for green sand. Can I increase my ratio of kelp meal to the mix to aid in potassium levels? My mix is based loosely on CCs mix, with some additions.

 

[GodOfPot]

Hey Guy,

Check out Bustan.ca it's a Canadian retailer in the GTA area if it's close to you....pretty sure they ship anywhere in Canada. They carry Down To Earth Greendsand, $30 for a 6lb bag

 

[Guy Cavallero]

Re: Building a Better Soil - Demonstrations & Discussions of Organic Soil Recipes

Hey Guy,

Check out Bustan.ca it's a Canadian retailer in the GTA area if it's close to you....pretty sure they ship anywhere in Canada. They carry Down To Earth Greendsand, $30 for a 6lb bag

Love the place. Never been in though lol. They always advertise wicked deals.....sounds scary ! I'm dying to go in. Most local hydro shops are completely out and not getting more in. Same with Neem seed meal and bat guano.

Thanks GodofPot!

Hey, whered you get your Romulan?

 

[GodOfPot]

Romulan seeds? I use attitude or choice seed bank out of the U.K., huge selection...
If you mean the buds, I grabbed it from CannaClinic in Parkdale back in the summer .

Not for greensand but check out black swallow soil.com, they located out of brantford and sell their own version of coots, they sell most of the amendments too including neem cake...I've spoken to them a couple times they plan on bringing in karanja cake as well in the new year...they're a great source of meals/flours/rock dusts/EWC/composts

 

[Guy Cavallero]

Romulan seeds? I use attitude or choice seed bank out of the U.K., huge selection...
If you mean the buds, I grabbed it from CannaClinic in Parkdale back in the summer .

Not for greensand but check out black swallow soil.com, they located out of brantford and sell their own version of coots, they sell most of the amendments too including neem cake...I've spoken to them a couple times they plan on bringing in karanja cake as well in the new year...they're a great source of meals/flours/rock dusts/EWC/composts

Okay awesome, thank you..... I have been looking for Romulan for a while now.

I am in the midst of starting my l o s, I am using black swallows base soil as my starter. Nathan has been amazing, although they don't carry all of the Amendments that I'm looking for. Green sand, as you say is one of those and I will have to visit Bustan in order to get it.

Many thanks......

 

[GodOfPot]

No problem

I been talking with Rob down there, he been very helpful too....The only thing for CC's real mix that isn't available locally is karanja, asides from that, between BlackSwallow, Amazon or Bustan everything else is readily available....I'm actually looking into sources for karanja, you can get it from BAS but they want ridiculous shipping costs.....so have a couple other emails out to suppliers based in the US, also have a couple members here helping me out HUGELY

 

[Guy Cavallero]

Re: Building a Better Soil - Demonstrations & Discussions of Organic Soil Recipes

No problem

I been talking with Rob down there, he been very helpful too....The only thing for CC's real mix that isn't available locally is karanja, asides from that, between BlackSwallow, Amazon or Bustan everything else is readily available....I'm actually looking into sources for karanja, you can get it from BAS but they want ridiculous shipping costs.....so have a couple other emails out to suppliers based in the US, also have a couple members here helping me out HUGELY

Yeah both of those places are within a couple of hours from me so once again as you said locally most is available. The Koranja is not something that was in my mixes list of ingredients, although I do have a pretty extensive list that I have purchased. What is its purpose?

 

[GodOfPot]

I know Bob checks in on this thread so perhaps he can advise you as to it's purpose a bit better then I can....to my knowledge when using Coots mix it goes hand in hand with neem, rich in N-P-K, micros, protects the plant from pests/bugs/disease

 

[Tony Urban]

Building a Better Soil - Demonstrations & Discussions of Organic Soil Recipes

I know Bob checks in on this thread so perhaps he can advise you as to it's purpose a bit better then I can....to my knowledge when using Coots mix it goes hand in hand with neem, rich in N-P-K, micros, protects the plant from pests/bugs/disease

Yeah similar to neem meal, it has a nutrient value, and part of the pest management profile of the soil mix. At least as far as I can recall.

You can get away with using neem meal, at least that's what I did, won't hurt leaving it out of the mix.

 

[bobrown14]

I'm building my soil in the New Year, didn't really realize that some of the amendments that I thought had a particular purpose ( ie Neem meal to aid in insect control) might have an adverse effect on PH etc as they decompose etc. Guess the ratios are super important after all. That being said, I'm having a hell of a time locating sources in Canada for green sand. Can I increase my ratio of kelp meal to the mix to aid in potassium levels? My mix is based loosely on CCs mix, with some additions.

Swap greensand out for Basalt dust. Green Sand, sounds good... pass.

Link on the rock dust/basalt etc

Remineralize the Earth | A Rock Dust Primer

"basalt which is paramagnetic" CC

Not sure why you want to use "green sand" instead of Basalt dust??


Bustan.ca

SKIP THESE:

Gia Green
Azomite
Rock Phosphate
Langebenite

Things to buy:

Kelp Meal
Oyster Shell flour
Crab shell meal
Shrimp meal (mix crab and shrimp meal and you have Crustacean meal!!)

Place to buy Basalt in Canada:

Just get the Basalt and the Gypsum and Neem Caka (and the CC mix if so inclined).

Rock Dust Products from Black Swallow Living Soils, Brantford ON

 

[Guy Cavallero]

Swap greensand out for Basalt dust. Green Sand, sounds good... pass.

Link on the rock dust/basalt etc

Remineralize the Earth | A Rock Dust Primer

"basalt which is paramagnetic" CC

Not sure why you want to use "green sand" instead of Basalt dust??


Bustan.ca

SKIP THESE:

Gia Green
Azomite
Rock Phosphate
Langebenite

Things to buy:

Kelp Meal
Oyster Shell flour
Crab shell meal
Shrimp meal (mix crab and shrimp meal and you have Crustacean meal!!)

Place to buy Basalt in Canada:

Just get the Basalt and the Gypsum and Neem Caka (and the CC mix if so inclined).

Rock Dust Products from Black Swallow Living Soils, Brantford ON

1000%, but I've already got that "skip these" in my arsenal for my next mix. I'll include them for now and attack the next batch with the new list if needed. Got a few sources of chitin for insects, and the Basalt dust is a wicked tip! I'll meander down to see Nathan at Black swallow within the next couple of weeks for my base.......dying to get this cooking! Thanks guys, always a learning experience......

 

[GodOfPot]

Blackswallow also carries barley straw, barley meal and malted barley flour - 2 row

 

[bobrown14]

1000%, but I've already got that "skip these" in my arsenal for my next mix. I'll include them for now and attack the next batch with the new list if needed. Got a few sources of chitin for insects, and the Basalt dust is a wicked tip! I'll meander down to see Nathan at Black swallow within the next couple of weeks for my base.......dying to get this cooking! Thanks guys, always a learning experience......

Those "skip" things list is so you don't have grow issues. Get a soil test if you don't want to use a tested recipe. The thing here is with the Coots mix we use, it's been tested by a bunch of different labs and soil ran with plants to back up the tests. Lots of different growers...

The "recipe" is there for folks that don't want to get a soil test.

Don't guess, soil test. Just sayin... we are growing in containers. That "skip" list can work outdoors .. they are too much in containers with limited soil and soil organic matter.

 

[TheMadDabber]

Im in. Time to study up for summer!!