Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention: Decarb to Extraction

[Canyon]

Off-hand I don't know of anyone using closed containers under pressure to decarb. Shiggity may have, but I don't recall it clearly. I know of some members using pressure cookers to make FHO, and there is a thread on the use of a pressure cooker to decarb. Decarboxylate RSO In Pressure Cooker

Will that be helpful? Are you simply decarbing or making oil?

Thanks Sue,
I should have gotten back to you sooner. I have been in a funky mood. Sleeping it off worked. I left a post at the pressure cooker thread.

I was thinking flowers. If it can be decarbed and the terpenes retained (Big if) a cold ethyl extraction would work if you wanted to drink 190 proof. Distilling it and keeping the terpenes would require some thinking.

I am for keeping the thread going for a while. There are a few members who have volunteered to have some tests run when they have upcoming harvests bagged. I am going to keep working on the data sheet. The layout is about what I want for now. I will pay for the pressure cooker tests which would leave a terpene test available for whatever we want it for.

Best



I never know

 

[308jerry]

The FHO I made a couple months ago, I decarbed the plant material in my pressure cooker. Put it in quart canning jars and when it got to 15 psi, I let it cook for 45 minutes then allowed it to cool down on the counter. Then added oil to the jars put the immersion blender into them and ground the plant matter up. Heated everything up once again in the jars strained the mixture when done and have been enjoying and sharing since.....

 

[Kicknitup1]

I'm using fresh oil.

Sue for the second run, I cover the bud bits plus add 1/8 inch or so. I'm using a 1 cup measuring cup, starting with crumbled flower about 1/4 inch deep or so. So very small batches.

When you do your second run, I know you are not testing, but do you think you got it all or do you think there is still 15% or so in there?

 

[Kicknitup1]

I took some dreggs assuming 15% content and moistened it with EVOO. Then added Lecithin. Then a little bit of egg. Stirred well & put it in the oven for 12 min @ 250f. Then cooled & stuffed it into capsules. Didn't work as well as I had hoped but I had to try it. Of course I did not achieve liposomal encapsulation but a reasonable effort. Results: should have been apx 110mg; felt like 50. ALSO, it took 3.5 hrs to kick in! lol. Here's my guess- I am of the opinion that the body processes thc better if it is combined with baked goods; making it a more complex food. I just think it needs something to slow down that oil. Anyway, 2 things. I don't think I baked it long enough at 250f and probably could have used more egg. But the main thing is, I think the body has a rough time digesting the vegetable matter to get at the thc....like roughage. I did a similar thing before but this time I made an uggggly soufflé. Oh well, it's back to coaching it out of the plant matter.

 

[Oldbear]

Hi Kicknitup After the second extraction I don't bother trying to squeeze all the liquid out of the mash. I let it gravity drain for an hour or so.

I know there are cannabinoids in the oil that remains on the bud bits. I don't know how much of the cannabinoids remain on or in the plant material not absorbed into the oil.

Now for me, it doesn't matter because it has been decarbed, and I consume it all. I want there to be noticeable levels in the leftovers.

Using the info from the double oil extraction run you guys had tested, I would say I'm getting 80 to 85% into the extracted oil.

Hope this helps

 

[Kicknitup1]

Hi Kicknitup After the second extraction I don't bother trying to squeeze all the liquid out of the mash. I let it gravity drain for an hour or so.

I know there are cannabinoids in the oil that remains on the bud bits. I don't know how much of the cannabinoids remain on or in the plant material not absorbed into the oil.

Now for me, it doesn't matter because it has been decarbed, and I consume it all. I want there to be noticeable levels in the leftovers.

Using the info from the double oil extraction run you guys had tested, I would say I'm getting 80 to 85% into the extracted oil.

Hope this helps

Yeah, I knew you were eating it all. That's what prompted me to try the capsule thing with the grounds.

 

[Canyon]

While Kickn was here I ran a pressure cooker decarb on five grams of buds from the Nightmare strain we have been using for our tests. I had forgotten about it. When I found it I was low on good smoke and decided to use it to stretch out what I had before my next harvest. It turns out that there is two grams left. For the most part it has been jarred in a fridge. It is enough to have tested though a little picked over. Using it would allow us to compare the results with the test we have.

I used 90 minutes on high. From what I have read that is probably on the long side. If I get the cheep cannabinoid test and standard terpene test they would only be $100 (only). That would give us a starting point. Most likely, there will be a good decarb. If there are terpenes in good quantities we can refine the time.

I can drop off tests on the 31^st if it is agreeable.

308Jerry,
Thanks, depending on these results, I think we owe SweetSue and others some Fresh Harvest tests. She did start the thread and has hinted a bit. Also, I do not think emulsifying the material is needed. I could be wrong.

I never know

 

[Oldbear]

Good experiment. Could you clarify how many caps did you make? and how many did you take?

One significant difference in methodology is that I chew everything up very well which coats all the surfaces in my mouth. Its tacking, sublingual, edible all at once. My reaction to this is quick - a few minutes.

By swallowing a capsule, you dont get that absorption and all the intake is in the gut. I think thats a very low uptake rate.

What was the purpose of the egg?

I took some dreggs assuming 15% content and moistened it with EVOO. Then added Lecithin. Then a little bit of egg. Stirred well & put it in the oven for 12 min @ 250f. Then cooled & stuffed it into capsules. Didn't work as well as I had hoped but I had to try it. Of course I did not achieve liposomal encapsulation but a reasonable effort. Results: should have been apx 110mg; felt like 50. ALSO, it took 3.5 hrs to kick in! lol. Here's my guess- I am of the opinion that the body processes thc better if it is combined with baked goods; making it a more complex food. I just think it needs something to slow down that oil. Anyway, 2 things. I don't think I baked it long enough at 250f and probably could have used more egg. But the main thing is, I think the body has a rough time digesting the vegetable matter to get at the thc....like roughage. I did a similar thing before but this time I made an uggggly soufflé. Oh well, it's back to coaching it out of the plant matter.

 

[Kicknitup1]

Good experiment. Could you clarify how many caps did you make? and how many did you take?

One significant difference in methodology is that I chew everything up very well which coats all the surfaces in my mouth. Its tacking, sublingual, edible all at once. My reaction to this is quick - a few minutes.

By swallowing a capsule, you dont get that absorption and all the intake is in the gut. I think thats a very low uptake rate.

What was the purpose of the egg?

I really didn't count. But I weighed the mtl and gave it a vaue of 15mg/g- 110mg/15mg =7.33g mtl. The egg was a binder. I was trying to make it all combine into a more complex "thing". I have found that capsules of oil do not hit as hard as the same amount baked into something. It may very well work better your way. Basically, Im trying everything that has any promise at all.

 

[Kicknitup1]

I don't know who lives where but I will be in Vegas late Nov if anybody wants to chat in person. Contact me if interested.

 

[Oldbear]

I really didn't count. But I weighed the mtl and gave it a vaue of 15mg/g- 110mg/15mg =7.33g mtl. The egg was a binder. I was trying to make it all combine into a more complex "thing". I have found that capsules of oil do not hit as hard as the same amount baked into something. It may very well work better your way. Basically, Im trying everything that has any promise at all.

That's good - the trying of things. I'm wondering if the carbs (in the baked goods) change absorption some how.

 

[Kicknitup1]

"That's good - the trying of things. I'm wondering if the carbs (in the baked goods) change absorption some how. "

Could be. But it's probably about more complex food hanging around longer in the system. We need a food scientist. Something is going on. I have done equal doses with the wife; her caps, me brownie....and again her squirting it down her throat with a pipet ( try to refrain, this is a gp board. lol. she hates the taste) and me with brownie twice that way. Every time I'm tripping and she barely feels it. You know, it's frustrating sometimes...we are stumbling around on some really basic stuff here for a food scientist. We need to coax one off another site from the food industry. Hey, you can speak up without saying " I'm with General Mills", hint hint. That one on Alton Brown probably needs a new gig. We pay in likes & thanks which cashes out just below the peso.

 

[SweetSue]

"That's good - the trying of things. I'm wondering if the carbs (in the baked goods) change absorption some how. "

Could be. But it's probably about more complex food hanging around longer in the system. We need a food scientist. Something is going on. I have done equal doses with the wife; her caps, me brownie....and again her squirting it down her throat with a pipet ( try to refrain, this is a gp board. lol. she hates the taste) and me with brownie twice that way. Every time I'm tripping and she barely feels it. You know, it's frustrating sometimes...we are stumbling around on some really basic stuff here for a food scientist. We need to coax one off another site from the food industry. Hey, you can speak up without saying " I'm with General Mills", hint hint. That one on Alton Brown probably needs a new gig. We pay in likes & thanks which cashes out just below the peso.

This may be a problem of absorbtion, which is directly tied to gut health and inflammation. So the question of the day is, how healthy is her gut flora, and is she experiencing any other signs of digestive malfunction?

 

[Canyon]

Well,
Kickn made a brownie for me and I can say that it hit about three times as hard as any eatable I have ever had. He put some egg in it and a bunch of oil.

It was an interesting high, very clear headed and motivating.

Kicken, is the tCheck information you sent something you can disclose yet?

I never know

 

[Canyon]

What if.......
you took an antacid a few minutes before ingesting an eatable? Would that slow down the degrading of the cannabinoids? Could it be that simple?

 

[SweetSue]

I took some dreggs assuming 15% content and moistened it with EVOO. Then added Lecithin. Then a little bit of egg. Stirred well & put it in the oven for 12 min @ 250f. Then cooled & stuffed it into capsules. Didn't work as well as I had hoped but I had to try it. Of course I did not achieve liposomal encapsulation but a reasonable effort. Results: should have been apx 110mg; felt like 50. ALSO, it took 3.5 hrs to kick in! lol. Here's my guess- I am of the opinion that the body processes thc better if it is combined with baked goods; making it a more complex food. I just think it needs something to slow down that oil. Anyway, 2 things. I don't think I baked it long enough at 250f and probably could have used more egg. But the main thing is, I think the body has a rough time digesting the vegetable matter to get at the thc....like roughage. I did a similar thing before but this time I made an uggggly soufflé. Oh well, it's back to coaching it out of the plant matter.

What you're experiencing is the conversion of delta-9 THC to 11-hydroxy THC, which is between 4-10 times more psychoactive than the delta-9, so yes, much more powerful, but unfortunately, not as effective medicinally, oor in the same ways as its predecessor. It's delta-9 that's a proven signaler of apoptosis, and delta-9 that is most effective against current pain. This is why we push competitive inhibition practices so much. If you can hold off that conversion it benefits you therapeutically.

If you want to get high, you eat the cannabinoids. If you want to sleep soundly through the night without pain, you do the same thing. If you're trying to destroy cancer, or effect immediate pain, it's delta-9 you're seeking.

Interesting experiment with the egg and leftover mash. The egg would have supplied additional lecithin, and it still takes up to 3.5 hours to onset? Curious. My oils hit within ten minutes with wellbeing and a bit of reality shift, and then slam into me about an hour later. I make double-strength FHO, and the brownies are 8 grams to a pan of 16 brownies, so each brownie is equivalent to .5 grams.

My gut must be healthier than I've believed.

 

[SweetSue]

What if.......
you took an antacid a few minutes before ingesting an eatable? Would that slow down the degrading of the cannabinoids? Could it be that simple?

I don't believe anyone has tried that Canyon.

Anybody want to volunteer?

 

[Kicknitup1]

This may be a problem of absorbtion, which is directly tied to gut health and inflammation. So the question of the day is, how healthy is her gut flora, and is she experiencing any other signs of digestive malfunction?

I think she is reasonably normal. She does fine on the baked goods. I don't get off on the caps either. Well once...but no telling how much was in there that round. lmao

 

[Kicknitup1]

Well,
Kickn made a brownie for me and I can say that it hit about three times as hard as any eatable I have ever had. He put some egg in it and a bunch of oil.

It was an interesting high, very clear headed and motivating.

Kicken, is the tCheck information you sent something you can disclose yet?

I never know

Yes. I have been talking with them about the new one for a month or so. I don't know how it works yet but I sure hope it does! It is supposedly retooled all the way. It also tests buds! Im telling you, if it will accurately test buds AND oil, I will get you some answers quickly. They will be available in Dec sometime. I think they will send me one ASAP. I'm excited for sure. I will post some promo stuff on it over the weekend. They have had problems but they have been stand up guys all the way. I'm going to Vegas so I can't pony up for another trip to Canyons' but I wish I could. I am pretty close to wanting to test a serious new twist in extractions. Not ready to talk about that quite yet but I think I'm on the right track. My concern this time will be CBN. Unfortunately, tcheck would count that in with the other cannabinoids.

Finally, I want to review where we are & sum up what we have learned. Like Sue, I think we learned a lot from the tests. Some are just not far enough along to connect the dots yet. But hey, we can fix that if they will hang in there. I drug this out longer than I had hoped. I have just been swamped for a month.

That phase is over but it opened up a bunch of new questions. I would like to see the thread continue. There is so much more to be learned. But the work we did provided a baseline for everything to follow. And so much to follow: Better extraction, better absorption, better terpene retention, maybe even custom building the components of your dose, and of course dose consistency.

 

[Kicknitup1]

"Kickn made a brownie for me and I can say that it hit about three times as hard as any eatable I have ever had. He put some egg in it and a bunch of oil.

It was an interesting high, very clear headed and motivating."

And that one came up maybe 30mg light from what I had in mind. Next time seat belts will be provided. Hey Canyon has, well, a good bit of tolerance. I think he expected me to fall out of the chair smoking his wares cause I was bitching about the quality here. Turns out, it's a bit stronger than I thought. Still not even in the ballpark of his expertise. I guess I have more than made up for that with the edibles. It takes a lot more mtl but I get it done. At Canyons, since the tcheck wasn't working, I was guessing about the dose. And, always wanting to err on the side of caution, meaning not od my new friend on the first visit.... Hell, I would hit the floor before he would I'm sure (didn't want that either on my first visit). But as he said, it was still a nice buzz. But somehow, I'm going to set him up for the full ride. I think not getting to enjoy that with him on that level was my biggest letdown...and probably half of our planned tests eluded us. Canyon earned it and I so much want him to experience what I rave about. I'm telling you, get the dose right and you will think you are doing schrooms.