FiveToMidnight's First Grow - Coco/Perlite - NL - MarsHydro 300W LED - 2015

[FiveToMidnight]

Very impressive comeback!! Nice colour coming back and pistols climbing. Really happy for you, 5. Reguardless of the outcome, you learned a lot. That's what truly matters! Grow on, my friend!

Andy.

Thanks Andy!
Would you have any thoughts on how close they look to harvest? Particularly #1

 

[Skybound]

When they entered bloom, does your notes reflect that #3 showed her first pistils before #1? It is possible that one plant reacted to the bloom conditions prior to her counterpart. Also, different plants deal with the stress at different paces, they are as unique as us in that respect. It is odd though as #3 has way better coloration and I would have guessed that #3 would have the better growth rates.

Don't expect to harvest till roughly 2 weeks after ALL the pistils turn amber in color. After that is when the trichomes also begin to amber themselves. Late bloom stress can induce foxtailing which itself can extend bloom, but if that occurs, you can harvest the plant in sections.

 

[FiveToMidnight]

When they entered bloom, does your notes reflect that #3 showed her first pistils before #1? It is possible that one plant reacted to the bloom conditions prior to her counterpart. Also, different plants deal with the stress at different paces, they are as unique as us in that respect. It is odd though as #3 has way better coloration and I would have guessed that #3 would have the better growth rates.

Don't expect to harvest till roughly 2 weeks after ALL the pistils turn amber in color. After that is when the trichomes also begin to amber themselves. Late bloom stress can induce foxtailing which itself can extend bloom, but if that occurs, you can harvest the plant in sections.

I believe it was #1 that showed them first a few days or so before #3.
#3 has grown taller but #1 has a lot more bud sites and each one is much denser than those on #3.

Oh wow, damn that means I'll miss the new years celebrations. Was hoping to have it ready for then. Oh well, don't want to harvest early and ruin it.

 

[McCdive]

What Sky said. Lol.

 

[Camo420Grow]

Haha I have to go with mcdive and say what sky said lol. But I do agree 5 your ladies a looking a lot better and just be looking for all that fresh new growth if white pistols! I bet it's exciting !
Hey 5 I would love or you to come by my first grow and let me know what strains you think I should grow first! Sky and mcdive you are more than welcome too! The more the merrier ! I would love as many great minds stopping in my journal to give me a heads up as possible!

 

[Skybound]

 

[FiveToMidnight]

Some pics from today.
I just worked out that my camera has a "Macro" function that allows me to take close up shots. This may be obvious for most but photography is really not my thing.
So took some pictures of the buds so you can see a little better how they are progressing. I have also acquired a small 100x Microscope so I can see the trichromes and they all still appear to be clear. However I should be getting a USB Digital Microscope tomorrow so I will post some pics so you can see the immense detail.

I do think #1 is seriously close to being ready though. About 40-50% of the pistols have turned amber and twisted inwards and the thricromes look very close to what I have seen in pics in forums. However I would appreciate some experienced opinions.
#3 looks to be a little way off yet though, most pistols are still white and buds don't look anywhere near as nice as #1

I also notice some purple spots on some leaves on #1, let me know what you think


#1

#3

 

[Skybound]

Good update 5. The color of #1 appears 100% better than a few days ago. #3 is still looking rough, but still showing great improvement anyways. I'm wondering if you started back with 1-2-3 yet? Also, by your estimation, where are they at in their bloom cycle? From what I am seeing, all the pistils still need to amber, but more importantly you'll want those calyxes to swell up and add a lot of density to your buds. I also have a 60-100x scope and IMO, the 60x end is a bit too close, so I'm gonna go on a limb and say 100x is way to much magnification, so I hope the USB cam gives you more flexibility in the magnification department. If I were to estimate time remaining, I'm guessing roughly 3 weeks till chop, but that really is just a guestimate. Most growers aim to have 90% milky trichomes with 10% amber trichomes, but still some aim for higher ratios of ambered trics as the ambered trics are known to give the couch lock type high and I believe some people like that kind of lift. I'm prefer the cerebral head high associated with milky trics. Hybrid strains add another dynamic in timing as well and IMO, a grower can aim to highlight either side of the sativa to indica mix by slightly shortening or slightly lengthening the harvest time. Still, there is a fairly broad window of time to harvest dynamite buds.

 

[FiveToMidnight]

Good update 5. The color of #1 appears 100% better than a few days ago. #3 is still looking rough, but still showing great improvement anyways. I'm wondering if you started back with 1-2-3 yet? Also, by your estimation, where are they at in their bloom cycle? From what I am seeing, all the pistils still need to amber, but more importantly you'll want those calyxes to swell up and add a lot of density to your buds. I also have a 60-100x scope and IMO, the 60x end is a bit too close, so I'm gonna go on a limb and say 100x is way to much magnification, so I hope the USB cam gives you more flexibility in the magnification department. If I were to estimate time remaining, I'm guessing roughly 3 weeks till chop, but that really is just a guestimate. Most growers aim to have 90% milky trichomes with 10% amber trichomes, but still some aim for higher ratios of ambered trics as the ambered trics are known to give the couch lock type high and I believe some people like that kind of lift. I'm prefer the cerebral head high associated with milky trics. Hybrid strains add another dynamic in timing as well and IMO, a grower can aim to highlight either side of the sativa to indica mix by slightly shortening or slightly lengthening the harvest time. Still, there is a fairly broad window of time to harvest dynamite buds.

Yes I have started back with the 3-2-1 and we are now in week 7 of bloom (estimation). I was thinking 100x would be ideal, I know I can get some great detail with it, just a bit hard to focus sometimes. But the digital one I'm getting today should go from 60x-200x so I should hopefully get some nice pics.

In 3 weeks they would be in flower for 70 days but the manufacturer states 55-60 day flowering period. Has the time extended due to the issues I have had?

I would like more of a cerebral head high than couch lock so I was looking for cloudy trics with only a small amount of amber present.

 

[Skybound]

In 3 weeks they would be in flower for 70 days but the manufacturer states 55-60 day flowering period. Has the time extended due to the issues I have had?

I would like more of a cerebral head high than couch lock so I was looking for cloudy trics with only a small amount of amber present.

Estimated finish times from breeders are accurate under ideal conditions. However, I've seen other growers (self included) vastly exceed these estimates for one reason or another, but at the end of it all, the trics will tell you when it's time. When you're at, or nearing the peak that you wish to harvest her at, begin flushing. If upon closer inspection you find that lower branch sites aren't maturing as quickly as the uppers, you may opt to harvest the top most and let the bottom go for another week to mature before taking.

 

[FiveToMidnight]

Estimated finish times from breeders are accurate under ideal conditions. However, I've seen other growers (self included) vastly exceed these estimates for one reason or another, but at the end of it all, the trics will tell you when it's time. When you're at, or nearing the peak that you wish to harvest her at, begin flushing. If upon closer inspection you find that lower branch sites aren't maturing as quickly as the uppers, you may opt to harvest the top most and let the bottom go for another week to mature before taking.

I had a feeling that may have been the case.
I picked up my USB Digital Microscope today and after playing around can get some really great detail and large pics. So as soon as I get home I'll take some pics so you can see all the trics.

I've seen people suggesting starting to flush two weeks out and then other suggesting only flushing twice at the start and end of the last week and only feeding plain RO water between that time.

What is it that you do?
Anyone else have any suggestions on this?

most of #1 looks pretty even. The top does look better than the bottom buds but overall they seem to be about the same maturity.
#3 will have to wait though, probably another few weeks.

 

[FiveToMidnight]

Now for some trichrome close ups!

Pics aren't perfect, still trying to get the camera set correctly

 

[McCdive]

Sweet!!

 

[Skybound]

That's a nice cam! From what I can see, you already have a good amount of milky tric heads and even a few have ambered, but still very many clear heads. I estimate another week or so, but I'm hoping them buds swell up before you take out the scissors. When I flush, I just go from the highest ppm right down to RO water only. As my system is recirculating, my RO quickly washes out the media and the ppm climbs so I change out the res frequently to wash the media as much as I can to force the plant to consume stored nutes from within itself. From what I've read, smoking herb that hasn't been properly flushed before harvest makes for some harsh smoke, so I flush till the lot of leaves turn yellow.

 

[FiveToMidnight]

That's a nice cam! From what I can see, you already have a good amount of milky tric heads and even a few have ambered, but still very many clear heads. I estimate another week or so, but I'm hoping them buds swell up before you take out the scissors. When I flush, I just go from the highest ppm right down to RO water only. As my system is recirculating, my RO quickly washes out the media and the ppm climbs so I change out the res frequently to wash the media as much as I can to force the plant to consume stored nutes from within itself. From what I've read, smoking herb that hasn't been properly flushed before harvest makes for some harsh smoke, so I flush till the lot of leaves turn yellow.

Yeah it's a great find, $20 on eBay!!
I hadn't noticed the amber ones but since you mention it I can see them now! I'm hoping the buds swell up too but to be honest I don't have any expectations of this grow at all. After all the issues, I feel lucky just to have made it to harvest. I'll be absolutely stoked if it turns out to be a good smoke too.

Sorry but just to clarify, being about a week out from harvest, should I be starting to flush now? Also, being that I'm not using a recirculating system, but have been flush feeding, should I just feed with normal 20% run off with plain RO to gradually drop the PPM or just one big flush to bring the PPM down to 0 so it starts consuming what is left in the leaves?

 

[Skybound]

I personally feel that 10-14 more days are needed to cloud up those clear tric heads. Also, I notice the trics themselves appear to be thin and short which to me suggests a bit more time may help with that. But when you do switch to flush, just start with 3-4 times the pot volume of RO water and send it all through the roots at the same frequency you'd do with your feedings at least. With the flush, it is not important to correct the PH either as we're not trying to feed the plant from the roots, but force it to consume the nutes that are stored in the tissue of the plant. If coco drains well and quick, you can do 2-3 flushes per daylight cycle. Rockwool drains very well and I know I can set it to water for 15 minutes, 5 times per day, but I prefer to just water 3 times per day. I bet coco can handle 2 waterings per day, but if once is all you can manage, I bet that would work well too. Oh, forgot to say that when you wash 3-4 times the pot volume through, collect the runoff and reuse it (recirculate hehe) up until it gets to 200-250 ppm, then toss it and use new RO water. Rinse and repeat etc etc etc.

 

[FiveToMidnight]

I personally feel that 10-14 more days are needed to cloud up those clear tric heads. Also, I notice the trics themselves appear to be thin and short which to me suggests a bit more time may help with that. But when you do switch to flush, just start with 3-4 times the pot volume of RO water and send it all through the roots at the same frequency you'd do with your feedings at least. With the flush, it is not important to correct the PH either as we're not trying to feed the plant from the roots, but force it to consume the nutes that are stored in the tissue of the plant. If coco drains well and quick, you can do 2-3 flushes per daylight cycle. Rockwool drains very well and I know I can set it to water for 15 minutes, 5 times per day, but I prefer to just water 3 times per day. I bet coco can handle 2 waterings per day, but if once is all you can manage, I bet that would work well too. Oh, forgot to say that when you wash 3-4 times the pot volume through, collect the runoff and reuse it (recirculate hehe) up until it gets to 200-250 ppm, then toss it and use new RO water. Rinse and repeat etc etc etc.

oh wow that long? damn! I was hoping to be almost done by the end of this week, at least for #1 anyway.
I will start flushing #1 tomorrow as I gave them a feed last night and will do as you advise. I have found that coco can handle several waterings a day and I've seen a few growers watering up to 5 times a day in coco. I have been watering once every 48 hours at the moment, so should I up that to once a day? Or maybe twice a day?
Sorry I'm just a bit confused on what I need to be doing in this stage and what I am trying to achieve. I know I am trying to get rid of all the nutes so as to give a more natural taste, but does that mean getting runoff to measure 0 and how fast should it drop from the 900ppm it is at now to 0?

 

[Skybound]

When switching to flush, you're going from feeding with a high ppm solution (900) to a low ppm solution (005). I am basing those numbers on info you've given so it relates to you, but the numbers are arbitrary to the concept. When you pour new clean RO (@ 5ppm) through your coco, what flows out the bottom may jump up to roughly 50 ppm. Then the next time you water with that collected 50 ppm runoff, it may climb to 100 etc all the way up to 200-250 ppm. Once your collected water gets to that range, discard that water completely and start again with a near zero ppm batch of RO water. You may find that you'll discard 3-4 measures of water in the course of the week.

I can't really advise on how to grow in coco. I am just trying to extrapolate the things I've learned from my experiences in rock wool (RW) and try my best to convey concepts as concepts are about universal to media types. That said, growing in RW, it has been learned by growers years ago that it is better to water frequently as RW doesn't retain water for too long. Actually, it does have a good retention once it's released the majority which makes it sooooo forgiving when compared to other forms of hydro styles. It is my belief that coco is also as airy as RW, but my perception is that coco also behaves a lot like soil which in and of itself (soil) has generally poor drainage which is why the practice of allowing the pots to damn near dry out is used. In hydro, these principles can be manipulated as the media allows waaaay more air to the root zone which in turn speeds up drying, thus increasing the need for more waterings. Heck, DWC, the roots never leave the water and if the DWC system is optimal, the plant will out perform every other style of growing. The reason they are totally submerged is because cold water holds higher levels of O2 and the roots absorb it just fine, all while being always suspended in nutrient solution, and the plants can eat or drink what she wants, when she wants and how much she wants. Great in theory, but not so easy when trying to apply.

So back to your question, I'm not trying to sway you into changing your feed practices as I don't know the flexibility of your media, but for flushing, the quicker you can break down the salt buildup in the media bed, the sooner she'll get to processing out stored nutes from within her, and washing out her roots once every other day IMO won't get the job done in a timely manner.

Oh shit, I completely forgot to mention that you are more than safe to take "samples" off your plant to dry and smoke. This will give you a better idea of where she's at in her maturity. I chopped my first harvest about a week and a half too early and the quality of the smoke definitely suffered. So once again, I ask that you meticulously analyze your #1 and consider the thought "just a bit longer". Smoke samples to get you by, but the masterpiece is still in the works and near complete and if you'll let her, she'll knock your socks off.

 

[FiveToMidnight]

When switching to flush, you're going from feeding with a high ppm solution (900) to a low ppm solution (005). I am basing those numbers on info you've given so it relates to you, but the numbers are arbitrary to the concept. When you pour new clean RO (@ 5ppm) through your coco, what flows out the bottom may jump up to roughly 50 ppm. Then the next time you water with that collected 50 ppm runoff, it may climb to 100 etc all the way up to 200-250 ppm. Once your collected water gets to that range, discard that water completely and start again with a near zero ppm batch of RO water. You may find that you'll discard 3-4 measures of water in the course of the week.

I can't really advise on how to grow in coco. I am just trying to extrapolate the things I've learned from my experiences in rock wool (RW) and try my best to convey concepts as concepts are about universal to media types. That said, growing in RW, it has been learned by growers years ago that it is better to water frequently as RW doesn't retain water for too long. Actually, it does have a good retention once it's released the majority which makes it sooooo forgiving when compared to other forms of hydro styles. It is my belief that coco is also as airy as RW, but my perception is that coco also behaves a lot like soil which in and of itself (soil) has generally poor drainage which is why the practice of allowing the pots to damn near dry out is used. In hydro, these principles can be manipulated as the media allows waaaay more air to the root zone which in turn speeds up drying, thus increasing the need for more waterings. Heck, DWC, the roots never leave the water and if the DWC system is optimal, the plant will out perform every other style of growing. The reason they are totally submerged is because cold water holds higher levels of O2 and the roots absorb it just fine, all while being always suspended in nutrient solution, and the plants can eat or drink what she wants, when she wants and how much she wants. Great in theory, but not so easy when trying to apply.

So back to your question, I'm not trying to sway you into changing your feed practices as I don't know the flexibility of your media, but for flushing, the quicker you can break down the salt buildup in the media bed, the sooner she'll get to processing out stored nutes from within her, and washing out her roots once every other day IMO won't get the job done in a timely manner.

Oh shit, I completely forgot to mention that you are more than safe to take "samples" off your plant to dry and smoke. This will give you a better idea of where she's at in her maturity. I chopped my first harvest about a week and a half too early and the quality of the smoke definitely suffered. So once again, I ask that you meticulously analyze your #1 and consider the thought "just a bit longer". Smoke samples to get you by, but the masterpiece is still in the works and near complete and if you'll let her, she'll knock your socks off.

Thank you for your flushing explanation, that make perfect sense and I now understand what you mean. I will start doing that to #1 today and see how we go.
I will start with one watering with plain RO today and do two per day from tomorrow onward (mainly due to being late in the afternoon now I thought it would be better to spread them out)

I can take samples!? Don't know if you should have told me that yet, I am soooo tempted to try some lol. I wont, just yet, will hold off as long as I can. But once I see more of those trics turn milky I may not be able to stop myself haha. It's getting too exciting seeing all the buds, it's like being a little kid on xmas eve hahaha just can't wait to get the awesome bounty!
I will keep telling myself to leave her be as I'd really like to get her as good as possible.
If/when I do take a sample, is there any specific place or way I should be looking to do it? Like is it better to take the highest, most mature looking buds, or maybe the more average looking ones? Should I just cut it off, hang it up for a day or so and then smoke?
I must say I haven't really looked at how to harvest and dry properly yet, I should really get on to that!

 

[Skybound]

I perceive samples as bait to keep me from flushing and chopping too soon which is what I'm trying to coax you into, (not flushing yet). Starting the flush too soon will rob her of her potential to completely finish. So once again, I suggest you revert #1 back into a feeding schedule for another week or longer, then when your sample gives you the kind of high you want, start flushing and in 4-7 days time, she'll be in PERFECT condition. You can sample from anywhere you want, but because they're bait, I always took those whispy buds from the bottom of the plant as the uppers are usually earmarked for other patients, wink wink.

When you harvest, you can take humongous branches or you can cut them small, whatever you want. In reality, I think ambient RH would help you decide. If you're in a very dry climate, it would be best to leave colas intact so as not to release the moisture too quickly in the drying process. Drying should take 4-7 days, not 1-2. I mean you can speed dry the samples so they can land in your pipe quicker, but the smoke will get harsh when done that way. When you harvest your whole plant, you'll want to dry them relatively slow, and then cure them after that in jars and/or bags. The trick is to slowly walk the moisture from the core of the bud outwards. Doing it this way preserves the flavors in the smoke. The Capn told me to get long short totes to slow cure after the hanging process to sweat the buds before they go into jars or whatever final storage container will be used. There is a butload of info on youtube and here on 420 that outlines the drying and curing process, and though they may vary in procedures, they are all identical in concept. Here's The Capn's video on trimming. You already know I am a proponent of bud washing. My teacher (The Capn) isn't a fan. Either way is a matter of preference, but I promise when you smoke a washed bud, you'll never want to smoke an unwashed bud ever again so please consider it.
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