Help - Day 45 - Crisis - What Do I Do Next?

[ExNavyInSTL]

It's Day 45 ... just for the record, when I closed the tent on Day 44 everything seemed perfect.

But then Day 45.

---

First the setup:

Conditions: VPD Mostly Excellent (Fº / RH)

Media: Coco - Perlite - Vermiculite

Lighting: 42 DLI

Nutrients: Jacks 3-2-1 at 2.0 EC

Container: AutoPots / 5-gal Fabric / AirBase with natural air aerated into media with AirDome

---

When I opened the tent this morning, the first thing I see is Purple Lemonade #2 is not happy (photos below).

Symptoms:

• Curl and Canoeing Leaves
• Hyper Praying Position
• Some leaves crunchy like paper

Diagnosis Actions:

• Checked for soil moisture - excellent
• Checked pH in AquaValve (AV) reservoir - 6.0
• Checked EC in AV reservoir: WOW! It was in the low 4s EC
• Checked EC & pH in other reservoirs all normal - all within decimal points of the master reservoir

Physical Actions:

• Flushed the heck out of the coco with RO water
• After 4 liters passed through I measured the Run Off water: 3.62 EC
• After about 4 gallons passed through: EC 0.90
• I stopped flushing

What Next ???:

This next part is the reason for the post. What do you do next?

I left a low EC, so there is some nutrients (just not sure how well balanced)

The Coco is soaked, but getting pumped in air at lower root zone

Do I give it some time without new nutrients ... like a dry-back period?

Or do I go back to normal now that the demon has been exorsized?

Extra Note:

• I believe the soil is dark because of a recent Recharge dose about a week ago.
• There are no odors

 

[Tokin Roll]

I haven't done coco in a very long time, there are others here more current.

Coco must stay moist all the time and do you ph to 5.8?

Stay safe, and grow well my friend,
Tok..

 

[Roy Growin]

Looks like you fried the roots but the flush should resolve that
Leave it alone for a few days see whether it improves at all

I wonder if the air pumped into the root zone is over-drying the medium?
It is not at all necessary in coco; as Toke says, you want to keep coco moist at all times

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

I do keep it at 5.8. Sometimes it's 5.7 and sometimes 5.9. But, I always correct it back. And I see the meter on the wall at least twice a day.

However the individual AutoPots seem to want to drift up, but not much. Most I have seen is around 6.0.

My plan for this was to not correct if it drops to 5.7 to see if that brings the AutoPot reservoirs back into the 5s.

I haven't done coco in a very long time, there are others here more current.

Coco must stay moist all the time and do you ph to 5.8?

Stay safe, and grow well my friend,
Tok..

"Coco must stay moist all the time and do you ph to 5.8?"

 

[bluter]

crap. i hate auto pots. the lifting is ok, the curling is a problem. it looks like it has wet feet.

in soil it would point to incorrect watering / feeding, with the roots suffering and unable to supply enough oxygen as a result. leads to ph issues among other things.

i'm not sure how you correct in an always watered media system.

 

[Tokin Roll]

How far along in flower are they?

 

[Phytoplankton]

Not a coco guy either, but it looks like a burn. Could be that the salts had built up to the point it was damaging the plant/roots. 3.9 etc coming out certainly warranted a flush, 3x the volume of the pot. Since you’ve done that, go back to normal feeding and see what happens. I’m gonna tag @Bill284 he is much more knowledgeable with coco.

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

My guess is about a week. It started flowering a week or so behind its sister (in the foreground). They are autoflowers.

Both of these plants have been oddballs since the beginning. No real branching to speak of, and it looks like they are both going to be one long cola if the stacking goes as it looks. I haven't counted leaves, but there a very few, especially on the sister plant.

If you saw the thread these are the two plants that I created a thread on whether I should chop them down or keep them.

The next day (no kidding) after that post Purple Lemonade #1 (foreground sister) started pre-flower.

How far along in flower are they?

 

[Peat Phreak]

Got too dry from pumping air thru the media. And since it dried out, the plant can't eat the nutes that accumulated in the media. You don't need to pump air thru coco.

The leaves need to get wet. I would do an 800ppm full nutrient mix foliar. That can make a big difference in just a day or two.

 

[Bill284]

Not a coco guy either, but it looks like a burn. Could be that the salts had built up to the point it was damaging the plant/roots. 3.9 etc coming out certainly warranted a flush, 3x the volume of the pot. Since you’ve done that, go back to normal feeding and see what happens. I’m gonna tag @Bill284 he is much more knowledgeable with coco.

My guess is about a week. It started flowering a week or so behind its sister (in the foreground). They are autoflowers.

Both of these plants have been oddballs since the beginning. No real branching to speak of, and it looks like they are both going to be one long cola if the stacking goes as it looks. I haven't counted leaves, but there a very few, especially on the sister plant.

If you saw the thread these are the two plants that I created a thread on whether I should chop them down or keep them.

The next day (no kidding) after that post Purple Lemonade #1 (foreground sister) started pre-flower.

Thanks Phyto,
Couple questions for the O.P.
Which one of these coco parameters are not included in your daily routine?
Coco requires
Fed ever day
Full strength nutrients
At 5.8 ph
With calmag in the water first
To run off every day
No plain water ever
Coco is hydrophobic, if you don't water it every day it can dry out
Once it starts to dry it repels water
Just shoots out the bottom
The roots never get a chance to pick anything up.
Also do you use any root health products?
What nutrient line are you using?
Sorry for any repeat questions.

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

Bill:

We now understand what happened. As I was checking off what could have happened, I checked DLI. Somehow it was at 54 DLI on one light that is just above the two Purple Lemonades.

PL#1 was always running behind and seemed a bit more frail than PL#1.

Although, both were once on the chopping block, because I stunted them a bit when they were little by overwatering.

One theory from another website was that the high DLI created a transpiration crisis. Meaning, it could been working so hard to keep up with the light that it sucked too many salts into it and fried the leaves.

It's just a theory!

Now on to your questions. I will answer in BLUE BOLD in the quoted reply below.

Thanks Phyto,
Couple questions for the O.P.
Which one of these coco parameters are not included in your daily routine?
Coco requires Fed ever day

They are in AutoPots and receive food and water as they want it.

Full strength nutrients: Affirmative - from a constantly restocked as needed 12-gallon reservoir.

At 5.8 ph: Affirmative

With calmag in the water first

I was not Cal-Magging before, because I had double-buffered the coco. That has all changed. I now add CaliMagic in when I get the Mono-Silicic in first. I let those to dance together in the lab mixer for a while before adding in my other supplements. I'll list those below.

To run off every day

No run off ... because of AutoPots

No plain water ever

No Plain Water ... I use RO water as my base that I then build upon with items will see below.

Coco is hydrophobic, if you don't water it every day it can dry out
Once it starts to dry it repels water
Just shoots out the bottom
The roots never get a chance to pick anything up.

The AutoPots keep the soil "dampness" just about perfect. The only drying is in the top 1/4 - 1/2 because of circulating fans ... much to the shegrin of potential fungus gnats.

Also do you use any root health products?

Here is the complete list of what I add into every batch. I am going to copy and paste it from this morning's entry into my Grow Journal:

Updated List:

• Jack's 3-2-1 - Base Nutrients
• CaliMagic - new because of too many Calcium issues
• (even w/buffered coco)
• Mono-Silic Acid
• Orca for Microbes
• Mr. Fulvic
• SLF-100 Enzymes
• House & Garden Drip Clean (Line Cleaner)
• Drip Clean 2nd Feature: actively removes salts and dirt build up
• Note on DripClean - Account for a little extra P & K
• Microbe Lift Mosquito (Fungus Gnats) Control
• MIcro Lift's Active ingredient: Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis Strain BMP 144

Not included in Main Reservoir, but used directly on ocassion:

• Garden Friendly Fungicide: For Root Health Mostly
• Active Ingredient: 98.85% Bacillus amyloliquefaciens strain D747*
• Recharge
• Microbe Life: Photosynthesis Plus
• Microbe Life: Vitamins and Aminos

I also, use some items like Humic:Kelp in a 5:2 ration foliar.
I also spray the Aminos.

I was using Gypsum as a Calcium Foliar, but I hope that now that I am using CaliMagic all the time that I won't need a CA foliar.

What nutrient line are you using?

I'm running Jack's 3-2-1 at their latest recommendations.

(A) 3.79g
(B) 2.52g
Epsom 0.99g

Although, last night I cut that by 20% to account for the CaliMagic and Drip Clean E.C. Bump

Final number is somewhere near 2.0 EC, which is the same if I go 100% and not use those two items.

E.C. & pH are monitored by a wall unit that I look at at least twice a day. If it moves to 5.7 or up to 5.9 I make corrections.

My tank is agitated once an hour for 5 minutes using two different aqaurium circulators. Plus, I keep a constant stream of air bubbling into it. Contrary to what I read in these forums, the constant added aereation does mess with my pH.

My AutoPots are kitted up with AirBases and AirDomes. They are also fed a light stream of air to the lower root zone.

Sorry for any repeat questions.

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

I now have a new diagram to live by:

 

[Peat Phreak]

I'm running Jack's 3-2-1 at their latest recommendations.

(A) 3.79g
(B) 2.52g
Epsom 0.99g

This is what I use for late veg and most of bloom.

5-12-26 at 5g / gal
calcium nitrate at 4g / gal
zero epsom

Fed 15x a month in peat. I used to get issues when I used common Jacks formulas.

I've also used a 1:1 ratio with good results. 4g/gal of each and no epsom. That also works without getting leaf issues. I would start at 1g/gal of both and gradually increase it.

The 5:4 ratio seems to produce a little better. Supplementing with an 800ppm foliar in between drenches if needed. The deletion of epsom salt made a difference for me. Part A has enough Mg.

 

[Peat Phreak]

Jack's 3-2-1 at their latest recommendations.

(A) 3.79g
(B) 2.52g
Epsom 0.99g

This results in a cal-mag ratio of only 1.6 to 1 with average tap water. Weed grown with LEDs needs more than that. Shoot for a cal-mag ratio of 2.0-2.75 to 1. That's probably why you get calcium issues.

The 5g : 4g : 0g formula I use provides a 2.5 to 1 cal-mag ratio. It's a strong formula with approximately 1250ppm. (230ppm N, 70ppm P, 300ppm K, 250ppm Ca and 100ppm Mg) If that is too hot for your light, the same formula works well at lower ppm for the entire grow.

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

I am due to add about 6 gallons of nutrients today. Do recommend starting with the 5:4 or a lesser variation in the this grow mid-way or in future grows?

I am running an EC of 2.0 now. I'm guessing your 1500 ppm is based on the 500 scale and not 700. If that is so, then we are talking a 3.0 EC. That's pretty hot.

If it is on the 700 scale then that is 2.14, which is much more inline with my current "heat." : )

Most everyone I read tells me and already too hot at 2.0.

Jack's 3-2-1 at their latest recommendations.

(A) 3.79g
(B) 2.52g
Epsom 0.99g

This results in a cal-mag ratio of only 1.6 to 1 with average tap water. Weed grown with LEDs needs more than that. Shoot for a cal-mag ratio of 2.0-2.75 to 1. That's probably why you get calcium issues.

The 5g : 4g : 0g formula I use provides a 2.5 to 1 cal-mag ratio. It's a strong formula with approximately 1500ppm. (250ppm N, 70ppm P, 300ppm K, 250ppm Ca and 100ppm Mg) If that is too hot for your light, the same formula works well at lower ppm for the entire grow.

 

[Peat Phreak]

Correction - the 5g and 4g is not 1500ppm. It's more like 1250ppm or 2.5EC. Made a mistake using the calculator

However, I only feed 15x a month in peat. Coco growers usually feed daily or even a few times a day. 3.0EC would probably be too hot for daily watering. I don't have much experience with coco and can't suggest ppm for daily use.

But you can use the same 5:4 ratio that I have been using. Just mixed to a lesser strength. I usually start at equal parts A and B then bump up part A towards the end of veg. Then run the 5:4 for most of bloom. So a typical grow would start at 1g, then 2g, then 3g, then 4g then (5g and 4g).

If you want to keep it near 2.0EC, you can try 3.75g of A and B with zero epsom. That has a cal mag ratio of 3:1 and so does any formula concentration at the 1:1 ratio with average tap water.

 

[Peat Phreak]

And the 5:4 ratio at approximately 1000ppm would be 4.12g part A and 3.3g part B.

The cal-mag ratio would be 2.5 to 1

With average tap water

 

[Nunyabiz]

Too much light, not enough water

 

[Bill284]

Bill:

We now understand what happened. As I was checking off what could have happened, I checked DLI. Somehow it was at 54 DLI on one light that is just above the two Purple Lemonades.

PL#1 was always running behind and seemed a bit more frail than PL#1.

Although, both were once on the chopping block, because I stunted them a bit when they were little by overwatering.

One theory from another website was that the high DLI created a transpiration crisis. Meaning, it could been working so hard to keep up with the light that it sucked too many salts into it and fried the leaves.

It's just a theory!

Now on to your questions. I will answer in BLUE BOLD in the quoted reply below.


They are in AutoPots and receive food and water as they want it.





I was not Cal-Magging before, because I had double-buffered the coco. That has all changed. I now add CaliMagic in when I get the Mono-Silicic in first. I let those to dance together in the lab mixer for a while before adding in my other supplements. I'll list those below.

No run off ... because of AutoPots

No Plain Water ... I use RO water as my base that I then build upon with items will see below.

The AutoPots keep the soil "dampness" just about perfect. The only drying is in the top 1/4 - 1/2 because of circulating fans ... much to the shegrin of potential fungus gnats.


Here is the complete list of what I add into every batch. I am going to copy and paste it from this morning's entry into my Grow Journal:

Updated List:

• Jack's 3-2-1 - Base Nutrients
• CaliMagic - new because of too many Calcium issues
• (even w/buffered coco)
• Mono-Silic Acid
• Orca for Microbes
• Mr. Fulvic
• SLF-100 Enzymes
• House & Garden Drip Clean (Line Cleaner)
• Drip Clean 2nd Feature: actively removes salts and dirt build up
• Note on DripClean - Account for a little extra P & K
• Microbe Lift Mosquito (Fungus Gnats) Control
• MIcro Lift's Active ingredient: Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies israelensis Strain BMP 144

Not included in Main Reservoir, but used directly on ocassion:

• Garden Friendly Fungicide: For Root Health Mostly
• Active Ingredient: 98.85% Bacillus amyloliquefaciens strain D747*
• Recharge
• Microbe Life: Photosynthesis Plus
• Microbe Life: Vitamins and Aminos

I also, use some items like Humic:Kelp in a 5:2 ration foliar.
I also spray the Aminos.

I was using Gypsum as a Calcium Foliar, but I hope that now that I am using CaliMagic all the time that I won't need a CA foliar.


I'm running Jack's 3-2-1 at their latest recommendations.

(A) 3.79g
(B) 2.52g
Epsom 0.99g

Although, last night I cut that by 20% to account for the CaliMagic and Drip Clean E.C. Bump

Final number is somewhere near 2.0 EC, which is the same if I go 100% and not use those two items.

E.C. & pH are monitored by a wall unit that I look at at least twice a day. If it moves to 5.7 or up to 5.9 I make corrections.

My tank is agitated once an hour for 5 minutes using two different aqaurium circulators. Plus, I keep a constant stream of air bubbling into it. Contrary to what I read in these forums, the constant added aereation does mess with my pH.

My AutoPots are kitted up with AirBases and AirDomes. They are also fed a light stream of air to the lower root zone.

Sorry it took me so long to return.
Ok silica doesn't mix well with anything.
What You need to do is feed silicate by itself in plain water.
Once a week I give everyone a drink with potassium silicate by its self.
Cal mag helps with uptake of nutrients, its important in coco.
Regardless of buffering you must put cal-mag in your plain water First.
I wait 10 minutes then add nutrients in order, starting with micro.......etc as they are listed.
I'll have a look at that nutrient line when I get a minute.
But follow those recommendations.
Also a little drift in ph in the res is ok as long as you stay below 6.
What is the temp of the res?




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

Thanks for the response.

I purposely don't use Potassium Silicate for the reasons you mention about its "special needs."

I'm glad you brought up silica. I once went way down an internet rabbit hole researching this topic.

I'll share what I learned. Maybe it can help others. But remember, I have only been growing for a little over a year.

---

My Happy Rant of Mono-Silicic Acid

When I first started learning about salt nutrients the one thing I liked was mostly instant availability to the plants.

As I continued to read (BillFarthing) on another board I learned about the beauty of using mono (ortho) - silicic acid (MSA) instead of potassium silicate for my silica needs.

Two Things Sold Me on MSA over other Forms of Silica.

1) Instantly available to the plants. No need to pass through a microbes alimentary canal first.
2) It doesn't mess with pH. At least for me, it doesn't cause pH issues.

Possible #3) I don't really think you need to make it the first thing in the water before moving on to other things the way you do with other silica sources. I still put it in first though. Just in case.

Which Mono-Silicic Acid To Buy?

I started with Alchemist MSA Stout -- I Didn't Know Better

Like a lot of folks in the forums, I started out with "Stout MSA" because it was cheap.

Other options seemed so expensive. At least I thought when compared to Stout.

Then I Discovered Front Row Ag Si

Then I came across the one I use now: Front Row Ag Si. It cost me $91(delivered), but when you compare the dosing, nothing seems to come close when you consider the concentrations of each product.

For example, for the ones I looked at the dosing was 5ml a gallon and 1.66 ml per gallon.

Front Row Ags Mono-silicic acid calls for 0.125 ml - 0.500 mil. I have a hard time measuring that little of an amount.

For anyone reading this and saying there's no way I would spend $91 bucks on a liquid ... let's look at the numbers.

Compare Dosing Per Gallon

The bottle is a quart but let's crossover to metric since that's how dosing is measured.

One quart = 946 ml

Front Row Si -- How Many Doses in Each Quart

At the lowest dose (0.125) we are talking 7,568 gallons of Monosilicic Silicic Acid. (946/0.125 = 7568)
At the highest dose (0.500) we are still looking at 1,892 gallons of MSA. (946/0.500 = 1892)

I'm sharing all this because I was floored when I compared it to others on the market. And Front Row Si is 10% MSA.

How Much Money Are We Talking Here

Now the best part ... the cost of Front Row Ag Si

a) Let's just go with the highest dose and round it to $100 for the bottle.
$100.00 divided by 1,892 = $0.05 a gallon.

b) Now, let's look at the minimum dose of 0.125
$100.00 divided by 7,568 = $0.01 a gallon.

Let's Compare Front Row Si to Some Other MSA Options

Alchemist Stout MSA

It would only be fair to compare it to some other popular brands starting with Stout MSA.

Premier Hydro has it on sale for about $17.00 and with shipping and tax it's about $30 delivered:

If running hydro, it's 5 ml. I run coco so I use hydro numbers. But, for soil, it's 2 - 5 ml. Let's look at 2ml.

1000 ml divided by 2 = 500 gallons in a quart bottle
$30.00 divided by 500 = $0.06 a gallon.

Now for apples to apples for me since I use a hydro dose.
946 ml divided by 5 = 189 gallons
$30.00 divided by 189 = $0.16 a gallon

What is the Concentration MSA In Other Brands

It's been a while since did this research, but I think Stout is nowhere close to 10%. I did read the following on Rollitup forum:

"Concentration is 1.25% for Alchemist (Stout) vs 1.71% for PowerSi. This leads to a popular "premium" brand: Power SI.

I have no proof of either of those numbers.

What About Power Si?

One brand that I see has a big following is "Power Si", but their one liter is $150 on Amazon delivered. Yikes. Maybe it is cheaper somewhere, but let's go with this for brevity. They say for regular use is 3ml to 5 gallons or 1.67 ml per gallon.

1000 divided by 1.67 = 599 gallons
$150 divided by 599 = $0.25 a gallon

My Decision is Getting Easier

This is why (for the moment) I settle on Front Row Si. 10% concentration versus products less than 2%.The higher concentration explains the fractional doses.

Here is Another positive way to compare:

Front Row Ag =
• 7,568 gallons per bottle (0.125 ml/gal)
• ($0.01 per gal)
• (10% Concentration)

MSA Stout =
• 189 gallons per bottle (5 ml/gal)
• $0.16 per gal
• 16 times more expensive per gallon than Front Row Si
• 700% less concentrated (if 1.25% concentration is true)

Power Si =
• 599 gallons per bottle (1.67 ml/gal)
• $0.25 per gal
• 25 times more expensive per gallon than Front Row Si
• 465% less concentrated (if 1.71% concentration is true)

Dang ... Front Row should hire me.

---

S

Sorry it took me so long to return.
Ok silica doesn't mix well with anything.
What You need to do is feed silicate by itself in plain water.
Once a week I give everyone a drink with potassium silicate by its self.
Cal mag helps with uptake of nutrients, its important in coco.
Regardless of buffering you must put cal-mag in your plain water First.
I wait 10 minutes then add nutrients in order, starting with micro.......etc as they are listed.
I'll have a look at that nutrient line when I get a minute.
But follow those recommendations.
Also a little drift in ph in the res is ok as long as you stay below 6.
What is the temp of the res?




#VIVOSUN #Love What You Grow
Bill284