Is a cure necessary if going directly to extracts?

[StoneOtter]

Ok, good. That's the green matter improvement which doesn't matter to me for my application. I was afraid you were going to say the effects were 10x more potent after a 6 month cure! Lol.

So far it seems like most of the improvements people find are in the smokability aspects, although some have commented about the potency effects somewhat as well.

I still have a few days before harvest to decide what I'm going to do.

Yeah, just that I think. I only hear of more potency with things like cobs that ferment. Maybe a well done Temple Ball of Hash Aged. My strawberry cough that's in the years old time frame now tastes like it looks. OLD even though I kept it at 62% and out of the light. Tastes old but kicks young still. That won't last I guess.

 

[Azimuth]

I think you’re on the right track. I know for me it’s easy to just do what I’ve always done. It’s hard to change things up, but this subject has me wondering. Unfortunately, I don’t have the endless weed coming in like I used to (for now) so I’m somewhat constrained in how much I can waste to experiment with. Not really waste, but you know what I mean.

Please share what you end up doing.

I'll see how the harvest goes, but for this round I may just make the assumption that no material improvement happens to the cannabinoids themselves and therefore just do one of the shorter term options.

Next round when I expect to have significantly more harvest I'll be more able to try out the different options.

I asked the question this round since I knew I'd probably have to choose one and expected the answer would already have been known to many.

I'm more cutting edge than I thought.

 

[KingJohnC]

Also, this:
"After harvest, the plant begins to degrade as enzymes and aerobic bacteria break down excess sugars and starches. Curing cannabis essentially forces the plant to use up those sugars, starches, and excessive nutrients before they’ve had the chance to dry out and get stuck inside the plant." Source

and this:
"The curing buds require some air to assist the natural breakdown of sugars and chlorophyll." Source

And not all bacteria are harmful. We eat all sorts of good bacteria in cheese, yogurt, pickles, miso...

pickles?

 

[InTheShed]

pickles?

Yes, pickles.

 

[KingJohnC]

Those are cucumbers preserved by pickling in vinegar. The cucumbers are submerged in vinegar and sealed to stop bacteria or yeast from destroying the tissue. You are confusing yeast and fermentation and or bacteria and bacterial cultures. Aerobic and anaerobic processes are very different and are not involved with curing cannabis unless the buds are contaminated and spoiled. Please have a look in your local library online for a book explaining bacteria families to better understand. Think about compost pile vegetation gradually degrading tissue back to raw material.

 

[InTheShed]

No thanks. You said:

If bacteria were digesting anything it would become as spoiled fruit or vegetable with the mushy slimy exudate runoff from decomposition and be quite harmful to ingest the bacteria . This is why we have food handling safety regulations and inspection agency's to prevent food poisonings.

and I was pointing out that your statement about bacteria was wrong. There are many types of bacteria and many serve very useful purposes (including in your gut). But I'm done with this topic as it's getting far afield from Azi's original question.

 

[KingJohnC]

Proceed as best your perception allows

Back to the extraction, I mentioned the nature of the solvent. The polar or non polar nature of the solvent determines if it will inereact with the vegetation and also remove the green grass component as water or ice extraction does.

 

[Azimuth]

Proceed as best your perception allows

Back to the extraction, I mentioned the nature of the solvent. The polar or non polar nature of the solvent determines if it will inereact with the vegetation and also remove the green grass component as water or ice extraction does.

Yes, but again, my question is not how to best maximize and improve the overall extraction process, but specifically is there is some benefit to the trichomes and other cannabinoids to a cure. Does the whatever process that makes the green matter smoke better, be less harsh, burn to ash better, whatever, does that process also improve in any way the cannabinoids?

I know we're all geared to the notion that a cure is important, but that seems to be relegated to improving the green matter and centered around combustion of the material to get to the goodies.

For those that don't combust, but rather extract through whatever process, is the cure even necessary? So, I'm trying to separate the green matter from my question, unless the microbes or the chemical process that works to improve the green matter also has a similar improvement function on the 'noids.

But so far in all the discussion, it seems like it doesn't, or at least it hasn't been considered before.

 

[KingJohnC]

In traditional cannabis cultivation the cannabis buds were dried and aged but a "cure" was not a necessity until after the fail of he north American farm system. The "cure" is an adaptation on how to fix what has gone wrong with natural healthy earth which now leaves us using soil or dirt without enough balanced elements to see cannabis plants through till harvest without issue. The "Cure" is to cure the broken accumulation of excess nutrients from the harvest and allow the nutrients left in the buds to denature until palatable. I believe that the trichomes cannabinoids do alter as they age and improve, I lack laboratory results to verify and back up these anecdotal common belief.

 

[Azimuth]

In traditional cannabis cultivation the cannabis buds were dried and aged but a "cure" was not a necessity until after the fail of he north American farm system. The "cure" is an adaptation on how to fix what has gone wrong with natural healthy earth which now leaves us using soil or dirt without enough balanced elements to see cannabis plants through till harvest without issue. The "Cure" is to cure the broken accumulation of excess nutrients from the harvest and allow the nutrients left in the buds to denature until palatable. I believe that the trichomes cannabinoids do alter as they age and improve, I lack laboratory results to verify and back up these anecdotal common belief.

But that statement would seem to be at odds with those growing in LOS, or TLO, or Stank's soil where they are heavily amended but straight up organics using boatloads of microbes. I can see that statement ring true with a chemical grow, but organics?

And @StoneOtter , for one, has indicated that the green matter certainly improves with a cure, and he grows in The Rev's TLO mix.

Still, that's not my question, which is seemingly more and more elusive as we all seem focused on the green stuff.

You say you think the cannabinoids do improve as they age, and that is what I'm trying to get at. But by improve, what does that mean? For some it may in fact be the change from THC over to CBN which is not really an improvement but a natural degradation of the cannabinoids.

I'm more interested in the question "If we have xxx.xx amount of canabinoids at chop, do we end up with 1.25 times x, or maybe some unavailable version of a cannabinoid becomes available through a microbe or chemical interaction, or does the THC molecule, for example, change slightly to be better in some way?"

Some tangible improvement to the cannabinoids that happens during the cure of the green matter. If not, it would seem that is a step that can be skipped for those going straight to extract.

 

[kahoona]

i let my extracted solution sit in the sun or under the grow lights for a few hours to get rid of the chlorophyll green color. it definitely tastes better after this is done. it goes from greenish color to a nice amber color.

 

[KingJohnC]

i let my extracted solution sit in the sun or under the grow lights for a few hours to get rid of the chlorophyll green color. it definitely tastes better after this is done. it goes from greenish color to a nice amber color.

Chlorophyll accountable for green colour within the inner tissues cell walls, not scent or palatability.

 

[Azimuth]

Chlorophyll accountable for green colour within the inner tissues cell walls, not scent or palatability.

Well then what does account for that grassy smell/taste??

 

[KingJohnC]

The left over metabolic wastes of the nutrients compartmentalized and trapped in the cellular walls of the cannabis cells. It is only when the plant mater stops taking in nutrients and begins expelling these wastes as the loss of tension of cell membranes permeability decreases assists from decreased humidity. Broccoli, spinach lettuce and most dried green herbs all have as much or greater content of chlorophyll even after drying than cannabis and only after the oils degrade becoming rancid and the green mater changes to grey fowl smelling has the chlorophyll actually significantly broken down. The same cut green smell as green grasses which by overuse of chemical fertilizers are given toxicity. This is why you can not eat and digest green grass without becoming ill.

Humans scent detection by safeguards are skewed to detect minute amounts of abnormal chemicals or above normal concentration in an area. I once knew a woman who posses hypersensitive olfactory abilities who described that when a person wears eau de toilette she is overwhelmed, becomes ill and can not be in an area the size of a gymnasium in the same persons presence. Ditch weed and hay fever sensitivity are other examples.

 

[Sueet]

The same cut green smell as green grasses which by overuse of chemical fertilizers are given toxicity.

But then why would grasses that are not fed chemical fertilizers still have that smell when cut? I've lived in my home for over 20 years, and have never given my grass anything other than broken down maple leaves, and more recently some coffee grounds. Definitely still has the same smell grass always has when cut.

 

[013]

not about curing for extracts directly

the cannabis industry will not embrace this technology because time is money but if you are looking for the upmost in medicinal quality then read on.…

every article on the planet states that cannabinoids and flavonoids begin degrading immediately after the chop.

While there’s no science to back me up, I’m confident one day lab testing will prove that a no-chop harvest / dying on the vine and drying on the vine is where it’s at. Dig up the rootball, shake off the dirt and wrap it in plastic garbage bag, tape the bag tightly around stem so dirt doesn’t fall into your produce.

Drying & curing a whole plant harvest increases the risk of bud rot or pm unless you spread out the biomass with a spacer and monitor the shit out of temp and rh to keep enviro dialed in. Going out on a limb again here….. but I believe the longer you can leave the plant intact without breaking down the braches - the better it will be in the final analysis. Yup it’s harder to wash and handle a whole plant but this is the connoisseur cure

Kinda like those funky 3 red ripe tomatoes on the vine at the grocery store, they looks so much better than the plastic commercial ones. Granted I don’t eat tomatoes but yeah.

One positive spect of budwashing and/or water cure is the plant bio-mass shrinks so the weed gets smaller but the trichs are like glue, not water soluble and I don’t think they are subject to shrinkage. Maybe someone contact Seinfeld or Costanza for confirmation on shrinkage…?

ditto - all cut grass has same funky scent, similar for when chainsawing trees, while they may not be volital there are organic compounds being released… how much do we lose by chopping versus whole plant harvest??

winterizing in freezer and cold filtering is supposed to clarify and remove residual chlorophyll, lipids and plant waxes but IIRC that is dependent on partial cure as opposed to fresh harvest bud.

 

[Azimuth]

not about curing for extracts directly

the cannabis industry will not embrace this technology because time is money but if you are looking for the upmost in medicinal quality then read on.…

every article on the planet states that cannabinoids and flavonoids begin degrading immediately after the chop.

While there’s no science to back me up, I’m confident one day lab testing will prove that a no-chop harvest / dying on the vine and drying on the vine is where it’s at. Dig up the rootball, shake off the dirt and wrap it in plastic garbage bag, tape the bag tightly around stem so dirt doesn’t fall into your produce.

Drying & curing a whole plant harvest increases the risk of bud rot or pm unless you spread out the biomass with a spacer and monitor the shit out of temp and rh to keep enviro dialed in. Going out on a limb again here….. but I believe the longer you can leave the plant intact without breaking down the braches - the better it will be in the final analysis. Yup it’s harder to wash and handle a whole plant but this is the connoisseur cure

Kinda like those funky 3 red ripe tomatoes on the vine at the grocery store, they looks so much better than the plastic commercial ones. Granted I don’t eat tomatoes but yeah.

One positive spect of budwashing and/or water cure is the plant bio-mass shrinks so the weed gets smaller but the trichs are like glue, not water soluble and I don’t think they are subject to shrinkage. Maybe someone contact Seinfeld or Costanza for confirmation on shrinkage…?

ditto - all cut grass has same funky scent, similar for when chainsawing trees, while they may not be volital there are organic compounds being released… how much do we lose by chopping versus whole plant harvest??

winterizing in freezer and cold filtering is supposed to clarify and remove residual chlorophyll, lipids and plant waxes but IIRC that is dependent on partial cure as opposed to fresh harvest bud.

Interesting, 013!

The maximum presevation idea is what I'm thinking about when I consider chop, then bud wash, and then straight to water cure. Although I suppose when I dry it after the water cure I may still lose some volatiles - well, at least those volatiles that have survived the water cure which is supposed to strip most of the smells and tastes, so flavonoids and terpinds I imagine. Hmmm.

It would seem the fresh extract cannabis oil would be the best way to preserve the most benefits, at least in the home kitchen environment. Maybe I'll have to add FECO to my experiment list...

 

[InTheShed]

But then why would grasses that are not fed chemical fertilizers still have that smell when cut?

I answered the green grass question with a simple google search here.

 

[Nine Toed Hippie]

The left over metabolic wastes of the nutrients compartmentalized and trapped in the cellular walls of the cannabis cells. It is only when the plant mater stops taking in nutrients and begins expelling these wastes as the loss of tension of cell membranes permeability decreases assists from decreased humidity. Broccoli, spinach lettuce and most dried green herbs all have as much or greater content of chlorophyll even after drying than cannabis and only after the oils degrade becoming rancid and the green mater changes to grey fowl smelling has the chlorophyll actually significantly broken down. The same cut green smell as green grasses which by overuse of chemical fertilizers are given toxicity. This is why you can not eat and digest green grass without becoming ill.

Humans scent detection by safeguards are skewed to detect minute amounts of abnormal chemicals or above normal concentration in an area. I once knew a woman who posses hypersensitive olfactory abilities who described that when a person wears eau de toilette she is overwhelmed, becomes ill and can not be in an area the size of a gymnasium in the same persons presence. Ditch weed and hay fever sensitivity are other examples.

PUT THE BONG DOWN

NTH

 

[KingJohnC]

But then why would grasses that are not fed chemical fertilizers still have that smell when cut? I've lived in my home for over 20 years, and have never given my grass anything other than broken down maple leaves, and more recently some coffee grounds. Definitely still has the same smell grass always has when cut.

If this is area is located in north America where the farm system failed and winds blew dust storms across the continent for unceasing years, The majority of the land is over enriched with nutrients. A growing plant changes the healthy earth or active soil in very little composition. Have you noticed how long it takes for lawn clippings to break down on their own timetable? The thatch and upper area of soil breaks down slowly which is why excess thatch must be raked out of lawns to stimulate new growth. There are a few classes of plants which are able to extract nutrients from the air and add them back into earth to enrich the soil. for unknown reasons people believe that their lawns should have the coloration of pine needles. I spend more time attempting to stop new tree runners from growing on my land than amending the earth.