Nivana's Chrystal 11 Weeks Into Veg - Advice Welcome!

[goddi13]

Well you definitely hit me on the head with that backwoods thing. im in the Appalachian mountains lol and was taught to give respect wherever its due and you definitely are due man. Ill be getting cal-mag or sea-90 on top of your tea ingredients as soon as I can get back to the city hydro shop. Could you keep me posted on your ak-48 when you start them I definitely dont want to miss out on that grow. Nav bro sorry for high jacking your journal man ill stop now but im staying posted and watching the killer progress your making.

 

[navigator]

i'm good, goddi13! glad to see the participation and good to know someone is benefiting...especially since you are living in that backwoods kinda place!

 

[cannilingus]

thats nearly three months in veg? wow. why is it so leggy? i rarely go over 8 weeks in veg. by then, they are over 25" tall, and bushy. i have three reg chrystal i just flipped yesterday. hopefully, one is a girl. i hear they are the best calyxe to leaf ratio, there is. this attracked me, as my two main strains, god bud, and jack herer, are both real trimmers. i have done ice, aurora indica, and currently, i have a fem seedling, of blackjack, and one of papaya, that im eager to taste one day. i also have a pack of blackberry, due here in the mail, tomorrow. they allways take ten days, to my home, from nirvanna. so far, the ice was real good. and tasty. and, so far, the aurora was the most couch lock knockdown. a fellow claimed his chrystal, was the best of all the white streains, from them. in taste and potency.

 

[cannilingus]

these plants look a bit anemic. i would reccomend, after you flush these, to ad some mg to the water. i use epsom salts, as my water has plenty of ca in it allready. mix it at about 1 to 2 tsp per gallon. a plant needs mg, in order to use other nutes. paler, lower leaves, are a sign of mg deciciency. it almost looks like an N deficiency, but, if you have been feeding, well, thats probably not likely.

 

[Papageno]

She had some real issues originally so we have been whacking them back. They were very tall and leggy and that is why we started this journal. It was to whack them back and start them over. She is new and doesn't understand this so I told her it will take a while but can be done. I would have had them back to full veg in a few weeks. She is learning and it is taking some time.

She had a bunch of problems up front. I believe she has whacked them back twice. It is in the journal. She still has a lot of stunting going on. That is why I asked for the close ups.

She isn't trying to get a quick turn here. This journal is to show her that you can recover anything. My first advice was to toss them and go with the clones but she was adamant she wanted to learn about bringing them back.

This isn't about making money she is a home grower and has had many bad runs. She is trying to learn about the plant. Clearly she is still stunting them. She clearly has over watered the one.

But the point is she is not here to make money or do a quick turn. She asked for help to try and understand how to recover plants that were nearly dead. Some people do this for money. She is not in it for the money. Maybe if you read her journal you might understand what she is attempting to do here. She clearly is a not trying to show off to people who don't matter.

Some people catch on quick. Some people take a few grows. But if people are asking for help so they can learn stuff then we ought to help them right?

She has repeatedly posted she is not expecting this to yield well ...she wants to learn.

 

[Papageno]

I think you are still having issues with your pH. Nutes are not a problem there is some trivial minor nute burn happening. But there is some deficiency happening so I bet you still have a whack pH situation.

The over watered one needs a good drying out. let that one be for a while. When it returns you will want some enzymes in there. Maybe next you give it some tea to clean up the mess in there now with a strong dose of enzymes added with the drive in.

That Humidity level will stunt growth so that aint helping. Get some wet towels to hang in there and re-soak them a few times a day.

If you are on the plan we talked about things should be doing better so maybe you need to start documenting in the journal exactly what is going into each plant. I don't think that is an issue and if we see that you are doing that correctly then we know it is lockout. It feels like lockout because your prevailing issue from the get go was pH and it looks like we still have not gotten that back under control.

 

[Castor27]

nothing wrong with that. nice of you to do that man!

 

[Papageno]

Furthermore as posted repeatedly she has new clones on the way...until the space is needed for those she has an opportunity to learn something.

 

[Sejd2131]

V.. Thank you for sharing with the masses!! You sure know your sheet..

 

[navigator]

I think you are still having issues with your pH. Nutes are not a problem there is some trivial minor nute burn happening. But there is some deficiency happening so I bet you still have a whack pH situation.

The over watered one needs a good drying out. let that one be for a while. When it returns you will want some enzymes in there. Maybe next you give it some tea to clean up the mess in there now with a strong dose of enzymes added with the drive in.

That Humidity level will stunt growth so that aint helping. Get some wet towels to hang in there and re-soak them a few times a day.

If you are on the plan we talked about things should be doing better so maybe you need to start documenting in the journal exactly what is going into each plant. I don't think that is an issue and if we see that you are doing that correctly then we know it is lockout. It feels like lockout because your prevailing issue from the get go was pH and it looks like we still have not gotten that back under control.

ok...wet towels and a small bucket of water went into the tent this morning...

#3 won't get any more to drink until she's light in the bucket...lol...

yeah, they were pretty far gone when we started...i'm a patient person...can i say this is really enjoyable? i'm getting to see all kinds of problems and how they are diagnosed and treated...

ok...when you say lockout, you are talking about the soil not having the right ph balance so the nutrients are not being absorbed by the plant...and the enzymes break down the dead roots and recycle them...

have you ever brewed the tea and then kept it in the refrigerator to use as needed on each plant? i imagine you would need to bring it up to room temperature before feeding it to them...

here is a current update to where we have been...

monday - 12/06 i did the flush and gave them one more gallon of water ph adjusted to 6.3 and mixed with 8-10 ml of hygrozyme, one ounce of vf-11, and about 1 tablespoon of biovam...
thursday - 12/17 i whacked them down.
monday - 12/21 i gave them the tea.
saturday - 12/26 i gave them water ph'd to 6.7 or so before leaving town.
wednesday - 12/30 i gave them cal mag, silica, and sugar in water ph'd to 6.8.
saturday - 01/02 i whacked them some more...
sunday - 01/10 i gave them tea...

 

[Papageno]

Lets try to measure run off pH next time. Usually not a very reliable indicator but not useless either. We want 10 - 15% run off every time.

Your plants are running very slow so you should have plenty of what you need in there by now. We need to maintain good temps and humidity and let things dry out.

I will post a chart below with all the info you need. I may have posted before. In your case lets keep temps in the 70's during the day and 60's at night if possible. Try to not let the Humidity drop below 50%.

Nutrient Lockout is when the pH is not in a range where the particular nutrient is mobile enough to be absorbed. So adding nutes to locked out soil does nothing it simply will just make the soil toxic. I will add a nute absorption chart below so you can see this. It is different in soil vs hydro. The whole point of soil water being pHd to 6.5 is to prevent lockout. The plant is happy as a clam in a huge range of pH...but the nutes will not be available so you get deficiencies and then the plant starts to cry "help me!!!!" Then people post stuff on here and I say "lets start a journal"


Hence why I wanted to back off to VF-11. This is a great all purpose pant food with everything you need and is not too strong and is formulated to aid in balance absorption and is great in a bad pH situation. When you get the soil fixed and things become mobile you may have too much in there. People tend to try and solve the wrong problem. They post a pic and someone says "That is Calmag deficiency". Neither the poster nor the helper realize that Calcium Deficiency and Magnesium deficiency look nothing alike. Then the Poster Dumps in a ton of Cal Mag and nothing changes. We talked about this before about understanding the symptoms being step 1 of many.

So when you have a whack pH the first thing we do is flush to remove any problems that may be built up. Some nutes will change into a salt and not be usable and just make the soil toxic.

So after we flush (preferably with pH'd water) we need to get that darn pH right by adding a good dose of properly pH'd water. Typically if you have a real bad situation I do the flush and pH separately. I learned a long time ago in a real bad situation you put it in the bathtub and run water through it until it is clear out the bottom and let it go 10 -15 min beyond that. If it is clear right away go not less than 15 min. We want to get everything out and turn it into a nearly soilless situation. A good soil blend will come right back. So that would be a lot of water to pH up front. So I do a 2 step process. Flush the hell out of it and then add pH'd water that is 2-3 times the pot size to really drive the pH to a correct spot.

so while it is flushing you make up a few buckets of pH'd water. let it sit and stabilize that pH for 10 min before use. Take the 3 or 4 buckets and use an extra one to keep mixing them back and forth to get a good even pH'd bath setup. When the flush is done do a pH'd rinse and run 2-3 times the pot through.

Now you have a clean and pH'd soil. You now just need to wait for it to dry out which will take a week.

So for that week we are low on nutes which isn't a big deal. Especially if the last batch of pH'd water has enzymes to clean up anything we couldn't get out.

A week later you can give my tea which is a total plant food concoction as well and a standard microb stuff. It has everything a plant needs. It will bring the soil back to life.

As you saw with the clones... the plant may be responsive to the tea in 24 hours. So in 2 weeks time you have a happy plant growing vigorously again. Then we add back Cal mag and silica and maybe light nutes.


Then depending on the situation (in yours in particular) we make decisions about whacking it back or training it to develop a bushy plant through recovery.

Right? That was our plan. I think you are not measuring the pH right as you are doing "everything" correctly. So we need to take some time and make sure we measure the fluids after they settle and wait for the pH pen to settle. You may have to sit there 5 min with you pen in the bucket. There are things you can do to speed it up but don't get impatient. pH is your problem I am almost certain of it. Maybe you soil is a mess? But I feel like you are doing things correctly so I feel like it is an issue with getting that darn pH spot on.

In the worst case we start this all over again...go back to step one and flush the hell out of it. But I think we can get by with a good pH dose. When they dry out dump a bucket of pH'd water though it 2 time the size of the pot. I bet your pH is too high so maybe try to get the pH of that water as close as you can to 6.2-6.3 pH. No less no more. Not 6.19. Not 6.31. 6.25 is good.

 

[navigator]

awesome post...very helpful and detailed...wow...i will need to read it again...lots of information there...what's nice is this is my journal so all this cool and helpful info will be accessible to me!

then the plant starts to cry "help me!!!!" Then people post stuff on here and I say "lets start a journal"

that was good...thanks for the laugh...sounds so familiar!!

and i'm agreeing with you on the ph...my bluelab wasn't being honest with me...lol...

my new ph pen is much better...mostly because it shows me 3 digits...like this...6.23...(the other one just showed me 2 digits) so the 3 digits helps me understand what it's doing, instead of just staring at a number that doesn't appear to be changing, but really is...if you know what i mean and yes, i get impatient...i just want it to TELL ME THE PH...lol...but it just dances around...so anyway...this new pen is much easier to tolerate because i can watch it settle in and finally arrive at a number...sorry for the rant...

re the ph...so what i do now is i put the ph pen in the water and then i go do something else...clean an area or something...and then i come back after a few minutes and if the reading is steady, i put the pen in some other water and give it a few minutes and then get a reading and then go back to the first bucket to see if the reading is similar...i've noticed that if i swish the pen around, the reading is affected...but i don't know why...if the readings seem unreliable, i calibrate the pen.

water out of the tap comes in at a ph of about 7.4-7.5...i always thought it was coming in at 7.0...so that's a problem right there.

so the next step for each one, as an individual and as they dry out and their buckets get light...i will do the following...
When they dry out dump a bucket of pH'd water though it 2 time the size of the pot. I bet your pH is too high so maybe try to get the pH of that water as close as you can to 6.2-6.3 pH. No less no more. Not 6.19. Not 6.31. 6.25 is good.

 

[Papageno]

Tap at 7.5 is actually really good water. Mine is closer to 8..but again near pure. I was explaining this to my wife last night and pulled out the PPM pen and filled my watering can to show her and she doesn't know anything about. I showed her how our water has a PPM of 12-14 out of the tap and a pH of 8 and she thought "whats wrong whats in our water!"

So a little knowledge goes a long way. When I explained people spend a ton of money on filters to get water worse than ours she calmed down.

Our problem with our Cascade run off is it is so pure that anything we add swings it wild. We have no buffering. Also because it is so pure it takes a bit to settle in evenly. All the "stuff" we add needs to diffuse throughout the bucket evenly. Before the measurement is accurate. There is so much empty free space to diffuse to it takes a while. Think about a subway car that is full. If you add a person there is only so far they can go. But if it is empty they can go all over.

And stirring the pen... That helps to speed up the settling of the value AFTER all the diffusion has happened. Stirring the pen make little vacuum pockets near the probe tip so the probe is seeing water then not water. it speeds up the process because the tip responds well to dramatic change so you are banging it back and forth. But none of that maters until the water has settled.

 

[navigator]

thank you for the info on the ph pen and the water...makes sense...just gotta be patient...

is #3 dead? or will she come back? she looks so sad...i think i might've killed her!

if it would help, i could re-pot her...what do you think?

#4 is drooping so she's going to get that bucket of pH'd water though it 2 time the size of the pot today. i've got the water ph'd to 6.26-6.27...

#2 and #5 look fine...not drooping or thirsty looking at all.

here's a couple of pictures of poor #3...and a shot of #4 and because i can...here's shot of the 10 clones...showing how the 4 on the left are so very much more healthful looking than the 6 on the right...the 6 on the right got the tea last sunday, so i'm hoping they'll ketchup...

poor #3

#4

and the happy clones!

 

[Papageno]

ah man yer killin me here... LOL

Looking back at your thread #2 looked like that a few days ago. Maybe she just needs some water.


I think that was the one I was most excited about? Well at least there are some babies on the way

 

[goddi13]

look up this book on ebay tlo (true living organics) by the rev its like 19 bucks and free shipping. He has one vid on youtube speaking at a cup. Sorry to see your plants looking so down nav them clones though lookin good lookin real good. Iv always had better luck with clones for some reson.

 

[navigator]

ah man yer killin me here... LOL

Looking back at your thread #2 looked like that a few days ago. Maybe she just needs some water.


I think that was the one I was most excited about? Well at least there are some babies on the way

ah, don't give up on me, here...V! yeah, it was the one that you thought was "purdy." i thought it was OVER watered!

so this morning i gave #3 and #2 water ph'd to 6.26...their run-off was ph'd at 6.5-6.6. the other two do not look thirsty, yet. when they do, i'll give them the same...

 

[navigator]

look up this book on ebay tlo (true living organics) by the rev its like 19 bucks and free shipping. He has one vid on youtube speaking at a cup. Sorry to see your plants looking so down nav them clones though lookin good lookin real good. Iv always had better luck with clones for some reson.

thanks, goddi13 for the encouraging words! i will check out the book.

here's the deal with me...i do not want to have luck with the plants...i want to know them and what they need and when...(kinda like V)...i will endeavor to persevere!

 

[Papageno]

"I aint quitting you"

I just gotta keep it light heart'd. Just playing zall.

They are in veg so we can always recover them if we want as long as we don't kill them. Cannabis is very robust and hard to kill if the temp are decent really. you may stunt but to kill them is kinda hard.

I did perpetual for a while and that is where you can accelerate you learning because you have plants in all stages doing all things and you can do minor tweaks and see relative results in the line fast. I am not recommending it just it takes years to actually understand it all. it takes very little to poke around online and became decent at reading pics and figuring out what the symptom is. but really truly understanding the life cycles is something I can't teach you. you need to grow many plants thorough the full life cycle.

When you go perpetual you become part of the perpetual process and before you know it you are perpetually harvesting and trimming and breaking your hand with a pair of scissors. People ask all the time "how much can I grow perpetual in this space"... My response is how fast and frequently do you want to be harvesting. A good plant takes many hours to harvest. If you scheduled it so you are getting a plant out of the room every day then you wont have a life at all. But you learn a lot!

 

[navigator]

phew! i can take the humor...

going perpetual is my goal...i had planned on using the tent for vegging and the room for flowering...but bringing these 4 back from their near-death experience is worth the time and space...

i want to harvest the clones the end of february...today i had planned on cleaning out the under-growth of the clones and maybe taking a few clones to see if i can put them back into veg for a few weeks and then flower them when these clones are harvested. i've read it's do-able - in any case, i need to get started on the next grow and figure out which way i'm going with it...if i don't clone these clones, then i'll probably have to get some more seeds.

when you did your perpetual grow, did you keep the same strain going? seems like it would be challenging to have more than one going at the same time...since they can be so different...

and i just checked on #3 and she appears to be recovering!