SweetSue's Cannabis Oil Study Hall

[InTheShed]

I read that page you linked to above as well and it was quite interesting but a little problematic

I linked to that person's experiment only because the scientific research says that TCH in oil can barely permeate the lining of the lower large intestine, and I was curious as to what their results were. The science is this...

From Practical Pharmaceutics, An International Guideline for the Preparation, Care and Use of Medicinal Products:
"The rectum does not absorb fats efficiently. Any active substance in a suppository must first dissolve into the aqueous mucus that lines the rectum and then pass into the bloodstream; it cannot be absorbed directly by the membrane without traversing the aqueous mucus layer. Therefore active substances that are themselves lipophilic (such as cannabinoids) should not be combined with a fatty or oily carrier, as this will reduce their overall absorption."

From the NIH:
"Oral administration of delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinal (delta 9-THC) was shown to result in low and erratic bioavailability, while the drug showed no bioavailability from various suppository formulations."

It was only after they modified the THC to THC hemisuccinate in a lab did they find:
"The observed rectal bioavailability of delta 9-THC from suppositories containing the hemisuccinate ester as a prodrug is of significant importance in developing an alternative approach to oral administration of the drug."

I'm searching for scientific answers in an environment where science is federally prohibited from going. The NIH studies are almost all at least 15 years old.

 

[Dave Groomer]

Just jumping in real quick. There was something posted a while back about lack of effectiveness of suppositories made with cannabis oil. The difference is in the biobombs and the much increased bioavailability that the process produces. Sue may remember that better then I.

 

[SweetSue]

Just jumping in real quick. There was something posted a while back about lack of effectiveness of suppositories made with cannabis oil. The difference is in the biobombs and the much increased bioavailability that the process produces. Sue may remember that better then I.

It was Cajun.

A few comments...
Lipids (100% CCO & no carrier) are not readily absorbed rectaly, I agree.
But, that's why we convert the polarism thru lipscomal encapsulation. The carrier oil is what is being absorbed, not the lipid properties of the cannabis.
The pharmakonics of absorption rates for non-polar meds is fairly well published/known. Though not cannabis specifically in most cases, the info is still applicable.
Rectal absorption with proper conditions such as moisture & encapsulating with a M/LCFA such as olive oil or coconut oil, is superior to oral ingestion and rivals submucosal.
There are a number of well known cases of success involving suppositories for a number of cancers. Tommy Chong comes to mind.
I feel that practice & practical experience contribute big time in determining methods of dosing. Academic knowledge goes only so far.
Working with dozens, who work with dozens more adds up.
There's alot more info than what's published on PMed & similar.
Spain & Israel alone have been publishing studies for 3 decades.
Most private US studies are not published in the bigger info outlets. Cook's Children's Hospital & MD Anderson in a very illegal state, Texas, have been doing peer reviewed blind tests on alot of these issues. They aren't published in most places online.
Sloan Kettering is another well known institution that has completed some awesome testing on terpenes & gnome mapping.
Ya won't see those on PMed either.

Tim hated studies & online info due to ask the confusion it causes.
I'm more open to it.
That said, I question most bodies of knowledge.
In the summit videos I linked on here, 3 out of 5 of all those involved disagree on LOTS of things from CBD to bioavailability.
I have enough info gathered over the past 4 1/2 years to refute any info I can also introduce. Lol. True story.
My advise on info gathering...
Find the nearest & also the acknowledged best/popular professional organization made up & serving clinicians, caregivers, patients, etc. and barrage them with questions, contacts

 

[InTheShed]

Thanks SweetSue! Does that help answer the original question as to whether THC suppositories contribute to brain healing? G2HM was thinking they don't.

 

[Dave Groomer]

It was Cajun.

Thanks Sue!!! I knew you would remember where that was.

 

[LadyGaea]

Just jumping in real quick. There was something posted a while back about lack of effectiveness of suppositories made with cannabis oil. The difference is in the biobombs and the much increased bioavailability that the process produces. Sue may remember that better then I.

I'm intrigued now on the use of suppositories. When I think suppositories I think of those bullet shaped glycerin caplets. I googled suppository molds....yup...you can get them on Amazon as a kit. Merry Jane has an recipe using cocoa butter. Do you think if RSO is dissolved in the cocoa butter it would be more effective?

 

[Dave Groomer]

I'm intrigued now on the use of suppositories. When I think suppositories I think of those bullet shaped glycerin caplets. I googled suppository molds....yup...you can get them on Amazon as a kit. Merry Jane has an recipe using cocoa butter. Do you think if RSO is dissolved in the cocoa butter it would be more effective?

Wait for one of the more experienced suppository users to chime in, but I believe most are making biobombs in #0 Gel caps. The carrier oil may vary combined with sunflower lecithin.

 

[Guy Cavallero]

Yes Dave. The oil we made into Biobombs the other day was combined with sunflower lecithin. The size we used as our starting point was a "00" gelcap capsule.

 

[SweetSue]

Wait for one of the more experienced suppository users to chime in, but I believe most are making biobombs in #0 Gel caps. The carrier oil may vary combined with sunflower lecithin.

The gel caps hold a good dose and work magnificently as suppositories. They're easier to transport and use on the go too. I use olive oil for the capsule suppositories. I figure it's giving the cannabinoids a better chance, and olive oil can't be used in a form. Most of us now use capsules instead. I use FHO, others use biobombs. The concentration of cannabinoids depends on what you're treating.

As to the question of suppositories being effective for brain treatment, I offer KR's latest thoughts on the subject, pulled from Cajun's thread.

Originally posted by KingstonRabbi: "Second, I would take most of the cannabis oil as suppositories, mixed as biobombs. Gelcaps work very well as suppositories. This method has the high bioavailability an bypasses the liver so it can't metabolize THC. Some will still get to liver on 2nd pass through circulatory system, but competitive inhibition will continue to help here. It may seem odd to use a dosing method that's about as far from the brain as can be, but fact is that any medicine will have to travel in blood to get to brain. Properly inserted it will travel straight to heart, to the lungs and back, and then back out to body still untouched by liver, and much of that blood goes to the brain, so suppositories will still work well for your brother."

It's a common mistake to confuse lack of psychoactivity with effectiveness of THC once it's into the system. Over at Cajun's thread we're always telling people that our expectation, if you're dosing correctly and using methods of competitive inhibition, is that you won't be feeling intense psychoactivity. All cannabis is psychoactive. THC is simply moreso.

We simply have no firm data on what phytocannabinoids are doing in the body. I personally try to avoid making any limiting statements when I speak of the actions of the ECS and cannabinoid therapies. I believe much of the effectiveness of the regimen lies in the belief that it's going to work. Until I have evidence to the contrary I'm going with the successes we've documented in our own numbers to guide me.

 

[InTheShed]

The gel caps hold a good dose and work magnificently as suppositories. They're easier to transport and use on the go too. I use olive oil for the capsule suppositories. I figure it's giving the cannabinoids a better chance, and olive oil can't be used in a form. Most of us now use capsules instead. I use FHO, others use biobombs. The concentration of cannabinoids depends on what you're treating.

As to the question of suppositories being effective for brain treatment, I offer KR's latest thoughts on the subject, pulled from Cajun's thread.

It's a common mistake to confuse lack of psychoactivity with effectiveness of THC once it's into the system. Over at Cajun's thread we're always telling people that our expectation, if you're dosing correctly and using methods of competitive inhibition, is that you won't be feeling intense psychoactivity. All cannabis is psychoactive. THC is simply moreso.
We simply have no firm data on what phytocannabinoids are doing in the body. I personally try to avoid making any limiting statements when I speak of the actions of the ECS and cannabinoid therapies. I believe much of the effectiveness of the regimen lies in the belief that it's going to work. Until I have evidence to the contrary I'm going with the successes we've documented in our own numbers to guide me.

Thanks SweetSue! Can I post this over to the Strains for Brains thread so we can have yours and KR's thoughts there?

 

[SweetSue]

Thanks SweetSue! Can I post this over to the Strains for Brains thread so we can have yours and KR's thoughts there?

Certainly. You'll lose KR's comments when you go to copy the quote. Let me edit that first.

All done.

 

[VerdantSpires]

We should remain open-minded on the effectiveness of suppositories for brain cancer and brain tumors, and be guided by results. I participate in a forum for brain tumors, where the admin are adamant that suppositories are just a waste of oil. Yet every time they state that, it elicits a chorus of responses along the lines of "I used only suppositories and it shrank my GBM4 till it no longer shows on scans", or "My brain tumor continued to grow while I was using oral dosing, and it was only when I started including cannabis oil in suppositories that the tumor showed signs of shrinking."

So researchers may expend as much effort as they wish trying to come up with "proof" that suppositories can't possibly be any help in treating malignancy in the brain, but I dismiss such opinion whilever there are case reports showing otherwise. It seems clear that to maximise your statistical chances of shrinking a brain tumor you should use every therapy available: oral, suppository, and topical. That way, you can rest assured of having done everything possible to win the fight.

 

[SweetSue]

We should remain open-minded on the effectiveness of suppositories for brain cancer and brain tumors, and be guided by results. I participate in a forum for brain tumors, where the admin are adamant that suppositories are just a waste of oil. Yet every time they state that, it elicits a chorus of responses along the lines of "I used only suppositories and it shrank my GBM4 till it no longer shows on scans", or "My brain tumor continued to grow while I was using oral dosing, and it was only when I started including cannabis oil in suppositories that the tumor showed signs of shrinking."

So researchers may expend as much effort as they wish trying to come up with "proof" that suppositories can't possibly be any help in treating malignancy in the brain, but I dismiss such opinion whilever there are case reports showing otherwise. It seems clear that to maximise your statistical chances of shrinking a brain tumor you should use every therapy available: oral, suppository, and topical. That way, you can rest assured of having done everything possible to win the fight.

Thank you. That was important enough to post twice. I'd appreciate it if you'd repost on Cajun's thread too.

 

[LVMarc42]

Can you layer the 2 by 2 on top of the 2 by 4?

 

[SweetSue]

While spending my Monday evening listening to a video of the 2015 Seattle Hempfest panel on cannabis innovations I caught Ah Warner of Cannabis Basics, a major topicals concern, sharing that B-Caryophyllene and linalool will help topicals absorb through the skin and will improve the efficacy of topicals, creating a transdermal effect. In her opinion you don't need things like DMSO when a terpene will do the job naturally.

 

[Guy Cavallero]

While spending my Monday evening listening to a video of the 2015 Seattle Hempfest panel on cannabis innovations I caught Ah Warner of Cannabis Basics, a major topicals concern, sharing that B-Caryophyllene and linalool will help topicals absorb through the skin and will improve the efficacy of topicals, creating a transdermal effect. In her opinion you don't need things like DMSO when a terpene will do the job naturally.

Sorry Sue....kinda new still. DMSO?

 

[SweetSue]

I'd like to ask a question that came up on Grow2HealMe's Strains 4 Brains journal. G2 is under the impression that the brain healing power of cannabis cannot be activated using suppositories, positing, "I thought suppositories were non-psycho active which suggests the cannabinoids don't get accessed by the brain at all." Amy Gardner agreed, saying, "...the body absorbs most of the cannabinoids before it hit the brains."

I was under the impression that the advantage to suppositories was bypassing the liver (and preventing the conversion to delta-11-THC, short-circuiting the euphoria). Does that also mean that the beneficial cannabinoids are not making it to heal the brain when using suppositories?

And there seems to be disagreement in the community as to whether any THC in oil oil can be absorbed through the lower large intestine, and one person's experiment confirmed this with blood tests:
The Cannabis Oil Suppository Debate: Personal Testing & Results — Cannabis Extraction by IchiBanCrafter

Color me confused now.

I finally got the chance to read this blog. Excellent work! Thank you InTheShed, for sharing.

The comments are always so insightful, and this bunch included a poster that verified what we've been suggesting, that suppositories can be effective treatment for chronic back pain, or chronic pain of any sort.

 

[InTheShed]

Sorry Sue....kinda new still. DMSO?

Long and storied history:
"Dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO), a by-product of the wood industry, has been in use as a commercial solvent since 1953. It is also one of the most studied but least understood pharmaceutical agents of our time--at least in the United States."
From a pro DMSO website

 

[Dave Groomer]

Petition to Legalize Medical Marijuana Nationwide Has Really Taken Off
P'etition . Senate: Medical Marijuana Needs to Be Legal and Affordable Nationwide Now . Change.org

 

[keshazel]

Hi there keshazel! I have food allergies and also have Crohns disease. When I need my digestive system to get back to normal in a hurry I follow the BRAT diet for a couple of days. Not sure what your dietary restrictions might be. Check with your Dr on if they think it may help you. Basically bananas, rice, bone broth (I make my own and always have some in the freezer), apple sauce, and yogurt if you can tolerate dairy. It's not meant for long term. If you don't have a nutritionist and can swing one, it may be worth looking into that too. They can do a work-up on food sensitivities that may cut through some trial an error too. Healing the gut is so important for overall health. Nothing worse than throwing it off! Hope you feel better soon! LG

Hi LG, Thanks for the info on the BRAT diet. I appreciate it. Kelly