The flush

[bobrown14]

If you over feed your plant it will help to clear the SOIL / MEDIUM and like mentioned. With a container plant if you push a bunch of PH'ed water through the soil. It will help remove salts that have built up. Making way for the transition from Veg to Flower.

There is a trick if you don't want the plant to take up any additional nuit's that are still in the soil / medium. The last 7 to 10 days / 2 weeks before you cut them. Only give them water at a PH higher then 8.5, you cause lock out on purpose. Anything PH'ed below 7 the plant will try and take in, above that it can't.

They still can drink but you restrict the roots from pulling up more nuit's into the plant. The plants will finish with what it has built up inside itself.

Most of the nuit's are derivatives of metals and water will not remove them from the PLANT. An example in humans some have to much iron in their blood. You need to have blood removed and a transfusion to remove it from your body.

In soil no it wont rinse out "extra" salts. The reason in chemistry.

Cations have a molecular charge.
Cations are you fertilizers or "salts".
Molecules that have a charge atract to and attach to soil particles.
No amount of water will "rinse" them away.

The reason is:

water has neither a Positive or Negative molecular charge.

So the attached "salt" molecules cannot be "rinsed" / "flushed" or whatever term you want to use for running water thru soil and expecting some Physics miracle to happen.

I mentions Nitrogen "can" be one nutrient you can over use and the excess "can" become more mobile but it depends on the soil make-up.

Thats the slimmed down version.

Flushing is for SOIL-LESS medium or hydroponics.

 

[safeman]

In soil no it wont rinse out "extra" salts. The reason in chemistry.

Cations have a molecular charge.
Cations are you fertilizers or "salts".
Molecules that have a charge atract to and attach to soil particles.
No amount of water will "rinse" them away.

The reason is:

water has neither a Positive or Negative molecular charge.

So the attached "salt" molecules cannot be "rinsed" / "flushed" or whatever term you want to use for running water thru soil and expecting some Physics miracle to happen.

I mentions Nitrogen "can" be one nutrient you can over use and the excess "can" become more mobile but it depends on the soil make-up.

Thats the slimmed down version.

Flushing is for SOIL-LESS medium or hydroponics.

great information !!!! - thanks

 

[SmokingWings]

no -- one can /should feed during flush why "strave" the plant for two weeks - I use a fish fertilizer durin the last two weeks (product: Fish Shit.com - can get sample bottle for $5.00 - this product is relativlity new ( if you use chemical nutes use 1/4 amounts )

Interesting stuff, that 'Fish Sh!t". When it first came out I tried several small sample bottles over the first year or so. It did not seem to cause any problem in the plants but I am not sure it really did any major help either.

However, it is not a fish fertilizer. It does not container enough Nitrogen, Phosphorus or Potassium to rate any N-P-K numbers or any percentages for micro-nutrients. It contains bacteria and microorganisms and when watered into the soil those will start to work on getting all the macro and micro nutrients from the organic materials and minerals already there.

In the long run adding some molasses to the water and using those sugars to feed the bacteria and microorganisms already in the soil could accomplish the same. When I was given the first bottle I had hoped that it was a fish fertilizer but no such luck.

 

[Emilya Green]

In soil no it wont rinse out "extra" salts. The reason in chemistry.

Sorry... not correct. The salt that is building up in our synthetically fed containers is water soluble, the other mineral salts, not so much. When the flush water hits the soil, the built up salt dissolves and moves right out of there with the moving water. Other minerals, stay put. Once the CEC is not filled up with the excess salt, which will be taking up much of the capacity for nutrients to be stored, the soil works much better in being able to exchange nutrients to the plant.

Flushing is a thing, and it has been ever since we started growing in closed containers and using salt based nutrients and if solubility is part of chemistry, then yes, the reason is chemistry.

 

[goofyfoot]

another way to see if 'chemicals" ini your smoked pot is color of sah: Black color means chemicals and will probably taste some waht harsh, ect - - whit ash means "clean" pot No growing nutrients

back in like 92 an old timer told me the best pot left a white cotton ball of ash in your bowl or bong. He said it was the best sign of clean pot.

 

[Stunned]

I plan my grows so meticulously that I do indeed plan a bath of ice cold nuteless water to the plants in their last 5 days
As well as very chilly night times

 

[Stunned]

no wood screw to the trunk yet @Emilya

 

[goofyfoot]

In soil no it wont rinse out "extra" salts. The reason in chemistry.

Cations have a molecular charge.
Cations are you fertilizers or "salts".
Molecules that have a charge atract to and attach to soil particles.
No amount of water will "rinse" them away.

The reason is:

water has neither a Positive or Negative molecular charge.

So the attached "salt" molecules cannot be "rinsed" / "flushed" or whatever term you want to use for running water thru soil and expecting some Physics miracle to happen.

I mentions Nitrogen "can" be one nutrient you can over use and the excess "can" become more mobile but it depends on the soil make-up.

Thats the slimmed down version.

Flushing is for SOIL-LESS medium or hydroponics.

In soil no it wont rinse out "extra" salts. The reason in chemistry.

Cations have a molecular charge.
Cations are you fertilizers or "salts".
Molecules that have a charge atract to and attach to soil particles.
No amount of water will "rinse" them away.

The reason is:

water has neither a Positive or Negative molecular charge.

So the attached "salt" molecules cannot be "rinsed" / "flushed" or whatever term you want to use for running water thru soil and expecting some Physics miracle to happen.

I mentions Nitrogen "can" be one nutrient you can over use and the excess "can" become more mobile but it depends on the soil make-up.

Thats the slimmed down version.

Flushing is for SOIL-LESS medium or hydroponics.

ALL I KNOW is when I follow Foxfarm's feed schedule and mix their liquid nuit supplements. At the end of 8 weeks I run 2 gallons of PH'ed water slowly thru my plants. Regardless of what I PPM the feed to the run out is always much higher then what I set it at.

This last time I did this I PH'ed the plain water to 5.75 and I had a level of 2368 PPM on the pen and PH was 7.10

I always feed 2/3rd's of what they suggest and never feed them over 2000 PPM even they recommend 2400 and higher depending on the week of grow.

After 1 hour I ran 2 more gallons of plain 5.75 PH water and what the readings where in the run out were PH 6.48 and PPM 1745.

I use 5 gallon fiber pots and my mix is 1/3 coco 1/3 top soil 1/3 perlite my plants are very healthy and loving life.

So what ever this excess is, coming out of them. I sure am glad it is and so are they.

 

[bobrown14]

Sorry... not correct. The salt that is building up in our synthetically fed containers is water soluble, the other mineral salts, not so much. When the flush water hits the soil, the built up salt dissolves and moves right out of there with the moving water. Other minerals, stay put. Once the CEC is not filled up with the excess salt, which will be taking up much of the capacity for nutrients to be stored, the soil works much better in being able to exchange nutrients to the plant.

Flushing is a thing, and it has been ever since we started growing in closed containers and using salt based nutrients and if solubility is part of chemistry, then yes, the reason is chemistry.

Chemistry is a thing too been around a pretty long time.

Anions and cations have a molecular charge.

Think of a molecular charge as a magnet with a positive end and a negative end.

The magnet is a soil particle with a negative charge.

Then since anions (-) and cations (+) have a molecular charge they are attracted to the soil particle (magnet) or opposites attract.

In chemistry these anions an cations ATTACH at the molecular level to the soil particles.

WATER - molecular charge is ZERO meaning it is NEITHER positive or negative.

So now there are 2 questions.

How does water remove or negate or change the molecular charge of the anions/cations attached to the soil particles?

A: It doesn't - it cant - it wont - and it shouldn't. Not physically possible.

That's both chemistry and physics.

Now the other more important question is:

How are those molecular bonds that attract the cations/anions to the soil particles changed/altered so the plant can uptake them??

Here's the answer:

"In the Cation Exchange process the plant's roots absorb many of the nutrients essential for growth. The process works through the secretion of exudates by the root hairs which contain positively charged hydrogen ions."


Now your argument you have is that Nitrogen has no charge like water. So can be soluble in water and this is the "salt" you are referring to.

The problem with your argument is that the Nitrogen you are using as a fertilizer is in a different form. As you mentioned its in a SALT form.

Ok so what Nitrogen salts are there in fertilizers.

ammonium nitrate and urea are the common forms.


Your argument to saturate the over fertilized soil with water to remove the nitrates with leaching is not the whole story.

First of all for leaching to occur the soil will need to be a sandy soil with LOW CEC or cation exchange capacity. OK so lets say we are growing in sandy soil (uncommon for cannabis in containers). Saturated soil with EXCESS Nitrogen causes something called denitrification (microbial conversion of nitrate to nitrogen gases) and leaching.

Denitrification - N is lost to the atmosphere due to microbes
Leaching - this is the part of you argument you're making.

So we have created both scenarios with Flushing:
Leaching
Denitrification

Dont forget this is JUST the EXCESS Nitrogen.

When in flower we have already (or hopefully) reduced the Nitrogen fertilizer inputs to near ZERO. This is one reason for FLOWER vs VEG fertilizers. So now the last 2 weeks of flowering there should not be excess N due to Denitrification and plant/microbe use.

So what are we "flushing"?
What are we doing with the run-off from flushing?

The bottom line is:

Mind your fertilizer inputs and don't over use Nitrogen. Its easy to see a plant with excess N in the soil. They grow lots and lots of leaves and very small flowers.

Reduce your N inputs and water as usual. No need to flush your soil.

I have more... do ya want some more?

caveat:
I'm not a chemist... I tried to dumb it down for me and you.

 

[Emilya Green]

Bob, sorry, and not to be insulting, but you have dumbed it down to the point that you totally failed to mention or explain away my major point, that the salt in question, the EDTA that is used to chelate most synthetic nutes, dissolves in the water and goes away. This is why flush assisting agents such as Sledgehammer work so well to reduce the amount of water needed during the flush, they help to dissolve the salt faster. Your dumbed down explanation failed to mention this salt. So all your fancy words and explanations about charges of the nutrient ions have nothing to do with this conversation, as dumbed down as it may be. The EDTA steals available slots in the CEC that should be occupied by the nutes you used way too many words to explain, and that is the reason the built up EDTA salt can lock out nutrient exchange. Flush it out of there and the problem goes away. It doesn't get simpler than that.

 

[Diatomacious]

Have you ever smoked weed with so much fertilizer in it it made you sick. I smoked some retail that gave me some nasty chemical reactions (muscles lock up or tighten causing pain making it so you can't even sit up straight without hurting like the devil or your jaw will tense up and give you a charlie horse).

Not saying everyone's is like that but I wish they would have just flushed with water at the end. All depends on what you feed your plant.

 

[Sueet]

Have you ever smoked weed with so much fertilizer in it it made you sick. I smoked some retail that gave me some nasty chemical reactions (muscles lock up or tighten causing pain making it so you can't even sit up straight without hurting like the devil or your jaw will tense up and give you a charlie horse).

Not saying everyone's is like that but I wish they would have just flushed with water at the end. All depends on what you feed your plant.

I don't know anyone who has had this experience actually, but I am super curious about how you know it was excess fertilizer causing your problem, as it sounds very strange to me.

 

[Emilya Green]

Have you ever smoked weed with so much fertilizer in it it made you sick. I smoked some retail that gave me some nasty chemical reactions (muscles lock up or tighten causing pain making it so you can't even sit up straight without hurting like the devil or your jaw will tense up and give you a charlie horse).

Not saying everyone's is like that but I wish they would have just flushed with water at the end. All depends on what you feed your plant.

no, I have not. You can't put your fertilizer in your finished buds... it don't go in there. The sugars and processed nutrients do end up in the buds, but the nutes themselves do not. You are not tasting nutes in those nasty buds from the dispensary, you are tasting what happens after fast synthetic growing with usually not even the full line of synthetic nutes, (running as cheaply as they can) a hurried harvest, a fast dry and quick 1 week (if that) cure that could not possibly convert all of the chemicals and chlorophyll into good tasting thc and cbd. No amount of flushing with water at the end would change the end result of this hurried commercial growing... you can't flush fertilizer that you cant put in there, out of there. It is all a myth. Feed your plants right up to the end, with everything they need, for a full finish and then slow dry and properly cure your buds for a month or two. There will be no chemical tastes and your bud will burn clean down to white ash.

 

[Diatomacious]

I don't know anyone who has had this experience actually, but I am super curious about how you know it was excess fertilizer causing your problem, as it sounds very strange to me.

I get the same reaction from eating chemically grown food is only reason I know... otherwise I would have thought pesticide or excess superthrive or something else, which it might have been.

You can't put your fertilizer in your finished buds... it don't go in there.

Gotta disagree... get a lab analysis of your buds... there will be N, P and K in there... it didn't come from the atmosphere.

No amount of flushing with water at the end would change the end result of this hurried commercial growing

So if you starve the plant for the final two weeks it will not resort to using the fertilizer it has already accumulated from the soil? This sounds wrong to me and goes against everything I have ever experienced growing.

Excess fertilizer in the plant will affect the flavor giving a nasty taste and cough. Overflushing will remove any flavor from the bud leaving you with a watered down tasting weed. Anything you put in the soil will end up in the plant. Plants are not picky eaters, that's what farmers are for. It all depends on how you grow it, that's why I said to smush some crystal and take a whiff. Do you like what you smell?

 

[Diatomacious]

Forgot to mention flushing only works for chemical grows... organic is mostly non-water soluble nutrient (if you are growing real organic and not the commercialized version).

 

[goofyfoot]

Bottom line is do what YOU FEEL IS RIGHT FOR YOUR PLANTS. You are the one who tended them and will consume them. I have flushed the big one twice before pre-flower. The smaller Sativa was done once and will get it again at pre-flower.

I will flush again the last 5 weeks before harvest, well before any signs of cloudy thric's. This is the results I get with flushing and if I don't they get lazy and have multiple browning of tips. The leaves are light and up lifted with a lovely crisp fold, V to them.

So use only rain water, some use only R/O'ed water. I use tap water right out of the sink that sits in the sunshine for one day before I PH it.

I also flush with it and this is what they look like ..... from 3 days ago.

I and Them are VERY HAPPY !! Stick to your guns, it is your fight !!

Peace ...

 

[goofyfoot]

Forgot to mention flushing only works for chemical grows... organic is mostly non-water soluble nutrient (if you are growing real organic and not the commercialized version).

I use liquid Foxfarm Trio supplements and if I don't wipe the opening off after I pour them out. You get a crystallin build up around the cap threads when it dries. Especially with the Veg bottle, the heavy Nitrogen formula. even the Flower bottle will leave crystals around the cap if I don't rise or wipe it after I pour it out.

 

[bobrown14]

Bob, sorry, and not to be insulting, but you have dumbed it down to the point that you totally failed to mention or explain away my major point, that the salt in question, the EDTA that is used to chelate most synthetic nutes, dissolves in the water and goes away. This is why flush assisting agents such as Sledgehammer work so well to reduce the amount of water needed during the flush, they help to dissolve the salt faster. Your dumbed down explanation failed to mention this salt. So all your fancy words and explanations about charges of the nutrient ions have nothing to do with this conversation, as dumbed down as it may be. The EDTA steals available slots in the CEC that should be occupied by the nutes you used way too many words to explain, and that is the reason the built up EDTA salt can lock out nutrient exchange. Flush it out of there and the problem goes away. It doesn't get simpler than that.

I explained the science . ... its PROVEN with science flushing is BS bro stuff.

Should I be flushing all my potted plants now? No of course not.

You totally missed my point and you miss it every time to spell it out.

DONT OVER USE FERTILIZER. That's pretty simple and basic practice.

Nitrogen is not useful in flower. Dont use it in flower.

Nitrates are the only salt that is soluble in water BUT we are growing in SOIL.

CEC and soil makeup have a HUGE influence on how soluble Nitrates become in waterlogged soil or soil in general.

Nitrate fertilizers are best used BEFORE there are plants in the soil.

Ever wonder why farmers dont fertilize corn or hemp in August?

Food for thought.... think about it.

 

[bobrown14]

Bottom line is do what YOU FEEL IS RIGHT FOR YOUR PLANTS. You are the one who tended them and will consume them. I have flushed the big one twice before pre-flower. The smaller Sativa was done once and will get it again at pre-flower.

I will flush again the last 5 weeks before harvest, well before any signs of cloudy thric's. This is the results I get with flushing and if I don't they get lazy and have multiple browning of tips. The leaves are light and up lifted with a lovely crisp fold, V to them.

So use only rain water, some use only R/O'ed water. I use tap water right out of the sink that sits in the sunshine for one day before I PH it.

I also flush with it and this is what they look like ..... from 3 days ago.

I and Them are VERY HAPPY !! Stick to your guns, it is your fight !!

Peace ...

You can grow as you please.

There's one thing to think about here with flushing.

What are you doing with the water run off?

OK so as the world embraces cannabis (again) and flushing becomes some sort of defacto practice that only cannabis growers do.

Ok so add up a few 100 thousand growers flushing nitrates into the water supply.

How long will it take for government to step in and stop the non-sense. Because if you're dumping your excess nitrates into the water supply you are polluting our environment.

Its already a thing in California.

The EPA started for just this reason. ONLY then did Farmers start being more mindful and they made laws to make sure they follow those laws with regard to fertilizer use.

We are seeing the exact same crap happening with cannabis growing and corporations selling EXCESS fertilizers to unsuspecting growers.

You used too much fertilizer.... oh no problem just add a ton of water and pollute the environment with runoff nitrate and whatever else they put in those bottles.

Sledgehammer... Saponin is now a secret ingredient.... ohhhhh better go out and buy some... wait I have Aloe plants that are high in Saponins.... its free. And I dont even need to water them 1 or 2 times a YEAR.

I'm going to add another quote to talk more about my point here:

"When you have too much nitrogen in soil, your plants may look lush and green, but their ability to fruit and flower will be greatly reduced. While you can take steps towards reducing nitrogen in garden soil, it's best to avoid adding too much nitrogen to the soil in the first place"

That last sentence right there ^^^^^^^^ doesn't that make sense?

 

[Diatomacious]

There's one thing to think about here with flushing.

What are you doing with the water run off?

The big problem with commercial agriculture... what do you think happens when it rains and the farmer has put down chemical fertilizer? Not to mention chemical grown food is bad for people... look at all the disease and cancer that affects people today.

Only reason I grow with chemical is because of the smell associated with the decomposition of organic matter (think dead opossum on side of road). Those gases released into a living space can make you pretty nauseous.