Volksball's Second Waltz With The White Widow, 2019

[InTheShed]

Amazeballs!

 

[volksball]

Happy new year!

Came back from a night away and the girls are showing great progress. Not seeing them for 36 hours makes for a dramatic change. Sorry for the color in the pics, but you get the idea.

Added a few pics of red stems and curly tips.

Day 74/14F

V

 

[InTheShed]

They look pretty good to me. How much are you feeding them at this point? There may be a slight inter-vein yellowing, but the edges of the leaves are also starting to curl up. Is that just the top layer or all the way down?

 

[volksball]

They look pretty good to me. How much are you feeding them at this point? There may be a slight inter-vein yellowing, but the edges of the leaves are also starting to curl up. Is that just the top layer or all the way down?

They're being fed at 6g/gal.

The temps are about 24.5c in the day and 18c at night. 45%RH. They get about 60-75k lux. A breeze blows over them nicely.

What you're looking at is mostly the top layer. Most of the leaves look pretty good, no signs of deficency, so as per Emilya's advice, I think ill hold off adding cal/mag to avoid lockout at this point. She mentioned possibly a potassium lockout. Lower leaves look pretty good too - I read that's where you might start seeing a Mag deficiency. The red stems just seem to be showing up alot, but as you've noth said, it usually isnt much to worry about.

 

[InTheShed]

I'd dial the lights back (or raise them) and see if it stops the curling edges. Light burn can also create deficiencies in the leaves, so see if maxing out at 60k lux makes them happier.

 

[volksball]

I'd dial the lights back (or raise them) and see if it stops the curling edges. Light burn can also create deficiencies in the leaves, so see if maxing out at 60k lux makes them happier.

Yep. Was thinking to raise the light up a bit. Waiting for rope hangers to show up that'll allow me about 4 more inches of headroom. I imagine they've got some stretch left in them, so I'll need it. Should be here by Friday.

 

[volksball]

Hey guys..

Checked on the ladies today and most are now showing leaves such as the ones below. Seemingly worse than yesterday. I looked below and found yellowing leaves and a some had fallen off a light yellow.

I believe that it's time to make a decision. I've dosed the gallons at 5.5 MC (down from 6g) and 5ml Cal-Mag. They get fed in the morning.

In addition to the leaves, I'm noticing that the middle plant doesn't seem to be at the same stage of flower as the rest. She's been slower throughout the grow at every stage. I'm assuming this is just another lag.

I'm still waiting for my rope hangars to raise the light up 4". The center of the tent gets 75k lux.

Would you:

A) dim the bulb to 50% where the center gets 45k while the furthest points only get 10k?
Or
B) Just let them be for another day until the light gets raised?

Thx everyone.
Day 75/15F

V

 

[InTheShed]

I'd wait and raise them, but I would feed them at 6.0 g/gallon and skip the cal-mag. Every time I've seen a deficiency start it's been solved by bumping the MC g/gallon.

 

[volksball]

I'd wait and raise them, but I would feed them at 6.0 g/gallon and skip the cal-mag. Every time I've seen a deficiency start it's been solved by bumping the MC g/gallon.

The problem was, I was feeding at 6g. Felt I was at the high end already. I dropped to 5.5 to avoid any lockout. I can add .5 to each, if you think that might be best. Cal-mag is in already.

 

[InTheShed]

I don't think I'd bump both. See how they do with what you have mixed.

 

[volksball]

I don't think I'd bump both. See how they do with what you have mixed.

Thx Shed. So I've gone ahead as planned and put in the above feed.

Below you'll see a bunch of what's fallen off of the lower parts of the plants. Those are a sample from all the plants. There were more. Let's hope this takes care of the issue. I'll bump back up to 6g on the next feed.

Thanks for the help everyone.

V

 

[farside05]

See how they react with this feeding and go from there. I'm betting they'd take the 6g of Mega and 5ml Cal-Mag per gallon just fine. In Bloom I routinely feed 6g Mega, 5ml Cal-Mag and add 5ml Silica on top of that. Well actually the Silica goes in first, but I think you get the drift. To me they look like they're hungry for more. Also I know that after Ive gotten over 60k lux that I'll get bleaching on the top growth. Raising the lights will probably help too.

Do you feed to the point of runoff each time? Or at least like every 4-5th time where you get substantial runoff? If not Mega can build up in the Pro Mix. I like to give them a gallon, maybe even 2, of tap then 2 gallons of feed about every 5th watering (so 3-4 gallons total and I'm in 5 gallon pots). That helps keep build up at bay. To check if you have build up, if you have a ppm/tds meter, water till runoff. Catch some of the first runoff water in a container and measure it. Compare the ppm of the container water to your input feed. The first time I ever did this I saw my runoff water was 1000+ppm over input. Continue feeding, periodically catching some of the runoff water and measuring it. When you get within 300 points of your input, you're good and have rinsed out most of the build up. As an example. My feed was 1100. I fed that 1100 feed until I got runoff. The first runoff I caught was 2200! I kept feeding until I got my runoff down to 1400, then quit. At that point I knew about how much water/feed it was going to take to knock it down. Lets say it was 4 gallons total. So from there, with the rest of the plants, I didn't waste 4 gallons of feed. I just used 2 gallons of regular tap water, then the last 2 gallons were with feed included.

 

[volksball]

See how they react with this feeding and go from there. I'm betting they'd take the 6g of Mega and 5ml Cal-Mag per gallon just fine. In Bloom I routinely feed 6g Mega, 5ml Cal-Mag and add 5ml Silica on top of that. Well actually the Silica goes in first, but I think you get the drift. To me they look like they're hungry for more. Also I know that after Ive gotten over 60k lux that I'll get bleaching on the top growth. Raising the lights will probably help too.

Do you feed to the point of runoff each time? Or at least like every 4-5th time where you get substantial runoff? If not Mega can build up in the Pro Mix. I like to give them a gallon, maybe even 2, of tap then 2 gallons of feed about every 5th watering (so 3-4 gallons total and I'm in 5 gallon pots). That helps keep build up at bay. To check if you have build up, if you have a ppm/tds meter, water till runoff. Catch some of the first runoff water in a container and measure it. Compare the ppm of the container water to your input feed. The first time I ever did this I saw my runoff water was 1000+ppm over input. Continue feeding, periodically catching some of the runoff water and measuring it. When you get within 300 points of your input, you're good and have rinsed out most of the build up. As an example. My feed was 1100. I fed that 1100 feed until I got runoff. The first runoff I caught was 2200! I kept feeding until I got my runoff down to 1400, then quit. At that point I knew about how much water/feed it was going to take to knock it down. Lets say it was 4 gallons total. So from there, with the rest of the plants, I didn't waste 4 gallons of feed. I just used 2 gallons of regular tap water, then the last 2 gallons were with feed included.

Thanks for chiming in, Farside. Good info there. I imagine that they'll handle going back to to 6g on the next feed, as you also do.

I do normally feed to runoff, but never test it for PPMs. As an example, five 7g pots took 12g of feed and there was about 1.5g of runoff in the shop vac. I normally go for that. I guess that's about 12%ish.

I don't flush as you've recommended, but will on the next feed and see if I can reduce any buildup. I thought with the chelate mix, I was less likely to have the same nasty buildup as I might with a salt based nute. I guess not. I'll take the recommendation and try a few gallons of tap per pot first, then feed and read the runoff to where it is close to what's going in. I'll likely need a bit more than you did given the bigger pots.

The lights raise up about 4" tonight. I'm really trying not to dim the ballast to 50%. The middles get around 50k, but the edges get 10k or less at that strength. Hopefully they can handle another day of 75k at the middle. They've made it this far...

Thanks again.

 

[farside05]

I thought with the chelate mix, I was less likely to have the same nasty buildup as I might with a salt based nute. I guess not.

Ugh, the misinformation campaign strikes again. Here's a post you may want to read.

 

[volksball]

Ugh, the misinformation campaign strikes again. Here's a post you may want to read.

Great post! Thanks very much for putting that together. And now I know the difference between salts, ions, chelation - both EDTA and amino. Thankfully MC uses amino chelation. So, contrary to what I thought, there will be ion buildup in the medium, whatever ion happens to be in excess, possibly causing lockout issues. Shed warned against using bloom boosters for that very reason. And Emilya warned against too much CaMg for the same.

I suppose half of the misinformation is my fault for not digging further than what I read, but posts like this make it digestible. Let's call it 'chelated information'. Less info left on my hands and more in my brain?? Ha. I just uptook more than I normally would have with the previous deliveries.

Thanks again.

 

[Emilya Green]

I still maintain that it is the magnesium that is building up for those of you supplementing it, and that the buildup of MC in the soil is not an issue. Excess magnesium has always been a problem for those who insist on putting epsom in their soil are a great example of this... too much magnesium in the soil locks out calcium and phosphorus.
I am throwing everything but Mg at my plants, and throwing it hard... complete with the much maligned BE that is thought to be such a problem... and I am not having any problems at all and have beautiful plants. At some point I think we are going to come to realize that without undertaking flushes and watering to substantial runoff, those using Mg products with the MC are the ones having difficulties... along of course with those who are timid about continually bumping up the MC dosage as the plants grow and their needs expand.

 

[volksball]

I still maintain that it is the magnesium that is building up for those of you supplementing it, and that the buildup of MC in the soil is not an issue. Excess magnesium has always been a problem for those who insist on putting epsom in their soil are a great example of this... too much magnesium in the soil locks out calcium and phosphorus.
I am throwing everything but Mg at my plants, and throwing it hard... complete with the much maligned BE that is thought to be such a problem... and I am not having any problems at all and have beautiful plants. At some point I think we are going to come to realize that without undertaking flushes and watering to substantial runoff, those using Mg products with the MC are the ones having difficulties... along of course with those who are timid about continually bumping up the MC dosage as the plants grow and their needs expand.

I think we might all be coming to the same conclusion here then. If we add Mg or even more MC, the flush is necessary to avoid any buildup and further, lockout. I do understand that you are saying that MC buildup alone causes no issue and you're referring to those adding Mg, but do you water to substantial runoff and perform regular flushes? If not, your conclusions regarding MC buildup make sense, but if you are flushing and watering to runoff regularly, its impossible to draw that conclusion, as nothing is being built up in your medium, therefore buildup of any ion, including all the ones offered in MC can cause issue.

 

[farside05]

I am throwing everything but Mg at my plants, and throwing it hard... complete with the much maligned BE that is thought to be such a problem... and I am not having any problems at all and have beautiful plants. At some point I think we are going to come to realize that without undertaking flushes and watering to substantial runoff, those using Mg products with the MC are the ones having difficulties... along of course with those who are timid about continually bumping up the MC dosage as the plants grow and their needs expand.

Do you even bother to look at a label? Bud Explosion 1% extra Mg, Sweet Candy 5.5%. Yet you aren't adding any extra Mg? Before you start throwing salt, check your facts. How many crops have you brought to harvest with Mega Crop?

PS, your last feeding of 5g Mega Crop, 1g Bud Explosion, and 1.3g of Sweet Candy has 59ppm of Mg, the same exact amount as 6g of Mega Crop and 5ml of Cal-Mag.

 

[Emilya Green]

Do you even bother to look at a label? Bud Explosion 1% extra Mg, Sweet Candy 5.5%. Yet you aren't adding any extra Mg? Before you start throwing salt, check your facts. How many crops have you brought to harvest with Mega Crop?

PS, your last feeding of 5g Mega Crop, 1g Bud Explosion, and 1.3g of Sweet Candy has 59ppm of Mg, the same exact amount as 6g of Mega Crop and 5ml of Cal-Mag.

Yeah, sorry to step on your toes there farside... but there is no call to take such an attitude as this with me. Of course I am just as capable of reading the labels and analyzing what is going on as you are.

I am simply following the directions. You are not. I have checked my facts, and I am not adding anything that is not recommended by the feeding chart... you are adding to it, ad libbing as it were. I care not about my ppm or the individual nutrient levels... I am doing what the company recommends doing with their product.... again, you are not. You are making it hard, when their goal at GLN was to make this easy... no wonder the rep stays out of these conversations.

Maybe it is you that is in the right here, and good on you if you are, but I believe that the company knows more than any of us do and has written their recommendations for us to follow, and so far, by following the directions, I am doing what you are doing in regards to the Mg with the help of spreadsheets and calculators. I ask you... who is doing more work here?

We now know that most deficiencies can be solved simply by upping the amount of MC. We know that GLN has warned us that extra Mg may not be necessary, especially if you follow the first advice or are strictly following the feeding calculator with the supplements. You have chosen to pull out your slide rules and figure out how to add just the right amount of Mg to get by... but too much and you risk a K lockout later on. I have chosen to follow the directions, instead, and add their other recommended supplements that also help supercharge the grow in other ways... ways that anyone not using the SC, SK and BE will not see.

We just have two different ways of growing this plant. I choose to simply follow the directions and not take any special credit for figuring out a magic formula that makes this stuff work. I came into this as an experiment to see if this MC stuff is what everyone says it is, and the only logical way to judge this product is to use it, as recommended. If it is that easy to use, anyone should be able to do what I am doing, without a spreadsheet, and just by following the directions on the website. I claim no special knowledge, I am just doing what any normal consumer would do by trusting the product to do what it says it is going to do in the instructions. If I can do this, anyone can.

You guys are trying to make this hard... and it is not. No, I have not had any MC harvests yet, but that does not mean that I do not know what I am talking about. If you wish to go down that path, I am sure I can pull out a long list of accolades and accomplishments that could at least match whatever you put up... lets not go down that path or try to compare number of harvests or years of experience.

You can't silence me with that nonsense. Look at my current grow and criticise that, if you can. You have already analyzed my exact last feeding, so I can see that what I am doing is intriguing and maybe frustrating you. The proof is in the pudding my dear, and my pudding is turning out to be very fine. And... I am working at this a whole lot less harder than you are, simply by following the directions.

 

[farside05]

If you go by Mega Crops site, they'll tell you you don't need anything but Mega Crop also. Pick and choose the sentence you want from a piss poor site that contradicts itself all over the place. There's 3 different labels alone on the Bud Explosion product.

Have you talked to a rep? I have. They don't come here because they can't answer a question. Talk to one of their lackies and you get politician type answers. They will never directly answer a question. Everything is a half sentence.

That said, I love the product.

Yes I supplement Silica. Why? That's the only thing in their product that it doesn't provide enough of. Tissue samples show it's one of the most used elements yet Mega provides only trace amounts.

Yes I supplement Cal-Mag for 2 reasons. 1) it's likely the first deficiency you will see with Mega Crop. Based on Liebig's Law of the Minimums, that would be an indication that it's a limiting factor in more growth. 2) I have specific N-P-K targets I want and I balance the equation with it.

Why I don't follow a manufacturers "recommendation" to a T? Almost every company out there has an extremely aggressive/over feeding schedule. Why is it most people have to cut the recommendations in half (not necessarily with Mega, but in general). They are in the business to sell more product. It's a capitalist society.

Yes I have a "slide rule". Why? This is science. For someone that rails against "Bro Science", a term you coined and I like and use, you should appreciate that. My ultimate goal is to figure out hard rules for limits, both low and high, on what our plants require for ultimate growth. Some general guidelines I have already from University studies, I'm working on the rest as I go. So yeah, I bust out my slide rule and calculate what everyone is doing, and any issues they are having, or not having to examine theories. A whole community can grow a lot more plants than I can in a 32"x32" tent.