What is the problem with my seedling?

[Papageno]

Good thread guys!!!

I don't use Rock wool I use Peat plugs but here is my 2 cents.

If you are starting from seed you should just start it in the RW or Peat plug. Transplanting of any type is bad and slows down the overall growth. Now we are talking maybe just a few hours or a day here but still you don't want to mess it up too much. And I screwed up enough sprouts trying to get out of the paper towel and into the medium.

I would only use paper towels anymore (and only ones without extra dyes) for if I was planning to place it directly into a Hydro basket with grow stones or clay pellets.

Rock wool is 100% unnecessary and doesn't add to the grow. It just makes rooting easier. Rooting is fairly easy and if you are going to end up in soil then just do it. I have seen lots of posts where people are having a hard time because RW is easy to mess up.

I use Peat Plugs and I don't know why. I think I am too paranoid. Back in the day when I was breeding I just put seeds in soil because I had thousands. That always worked. Now that they cost like $8 a seed for some reason I feel compelled to waste my time and money on this crap. None of this is necessary.

 

[Emilya Green]

Good thread guys!!!

I don't use Rock wool I use Peat plugs but here is my 2 cents.

If you are starting from seed you should just start it in the RW or Peat plug. Transplanting of any type is bad and slows down the overall growth. Now we are talking maybe just a few hours or a day here but still you don't want to mess it up too much. And I screwed up enough sprouts trying to get out of the paper towel and into the medium.

I would only use paper towels anymore (and only ones without extra dyes) for if I was planning to place it directly into a Hydro basket with grow stones or clay pellets.

Rock wool is 100% unnecessary and doesn't add to the grow. It just makes rooting easier. Rooting is fairly easy and if you are going to end up in soil then just do it. I have seen lots of posts where people are having a hard time because RW is easy to mess up.

I use Peat Plugs and I don't know why. I think I am too paranoid. Back in the day when I was breeding I just put seeds in soil because I had thousands. That always worked. Now that they cost like $8 a seed for some reason I feel compelled to waste my time and money on this crap. None of this is necessary.

To a point, I agree with you VI, but I take issue with your blanket statement that transplanting of any type is bad and that it slows down overall growth. This is simply not true when talking about the overall grow, but you do have a point about it's potential for harm during the germination stage. Overall however, well timed transplanting is a good thing. I transplant at least 4 times before I get to flower, and it never slows down a thing... and actually accelerates things every time I put fresh soil under my babies. These are weeds, and it is really hard to slow down a weed, especially with a proper transplant.

Regarding germinating seeds... you are right however. When I start new seeds, I just plop them 1/2" down, pointy end up, in a 1" container full of soil. VI is right about this, and just about every time the seeds pop just fine... just like in nature. We don't need paper towels and all these fancy steps, tools and methods, each one a chance to screw things up.

 

[Papageno]

I transplanted many times without issue too. I am not saying you don't want to do it I am saying you want to avoid it as much as possible. The blanket statement is simply because of the science behind transplanting. You cannot avoid some damage while transplanting. The micro hairs, you can't even see them, will be damaged. Most of the time if you are good about it you wont even notice the time it takes to rebound. You can grow that stuff back in a few hours.

But yes it is nothing to worry about and they are just fine to be transplanted. I am just referring to the fact that you can not take a plant out of a pot without damaging at min some of the micro hairs on the eternal surfaces. And sometimes that is a good thing. If you have waited too long and it is root bound you actually want to bang it a bit and do some damage.

I am not trying to argue I am simply pointing out that you cannot move roots around without doing something to them they don't like. But trust me I do understand "good" stress and I utilize mother natures response mechanisms as much as I can... so I stress them in a good way when I need to.

 

[Papageno]

I want to add one last thing...sorry to hijack this thread.

My real issue with Transplanting is you can't do it at the right time effectively without it being a mess.

Transplanting is about the Tap root. The heart and soul of the plant is the tap root. Nearly 100% of the nutes and water comes through the tap root. There are many studies that show the volume of the pot doesn't matter rather the length of the Tap root is really all that matters. The longer and healthier the tap root the better the plant and that is all there is to it. Clones are a different story we can talk about elsewhere.

So the problem is you never want your tap root to start spinning around the bottom of the pot. As soon as you do that you have limited the height and weight the plant will "naturally" get to. Now we all know we can force it to get bigger than it wants to be naturally. But it is much harder to do so with a shorter tap root. Longer the tap root the easier the grow. So this means as soon as the tap root hits the bottom of the pot you want to transplant it. The tap root is like a rocket ship and will hit the bottom of any pot in a matter of days. So the ideal time to transplant is long before the other roots have formed. So you need to pull it out when all the soil is going to fall apart.

Now again these are robust plants and you can let them get root bound and transplant and get them going again no problem...even newbs do it all the time with great success. But that is simply not ideal or allowing the plant to grow to its potential easily. Fine to do!!! Preferably avoided.

 

[Anonurse]

Update:
Plant A still looks like shaat, I hope it makes it. I still think it's due to a pH problem. I calibrated my digital meter using the calibration powder it came with but I don't trust the calibration. I've ordered a General Hydro pH calibration solution that will take about 2 weeks to arrive via Amazon! This is an urgent problem though so I will try and pick one up from a local hydro store this Saturday. With the current calibration, the runoff water pH is registering at ~7.4, and this is with a nute solution pH of ~5.

Two more seedlings have developed since the last time I posted. Heres plant B (looks like it's following in A's footsteps):

And plant C (showing a problem of its own):

I started adding nutrients on 11/23. I'm using an Earth Juice Bloom, Grow, and Catalyst mixture, and am following their feed schedule. I'm watering/ feeding every other day. The runoff is 115ppm (low?).

 

[Anonurse]

The heat in my tent is reaches as high as 84 degrees F when the lights are on, and the humidity is 50 with lights on, 70 when lights are off.

 

[Papageno]

Start a journal and we will walk you through this. They are robust and you can get these happy just fine.

84 is a bit high. Try getting more ventilation.

You are adding nutes to soil with plenty of initial nutes ...for plants that are not developed enough to use nutes. These are going to burn.

If you are in a good soil you need no nutes for veg.

 

[Anonurse]

Thanks Villiageidiot,

All plants have about 3 inter-nodes so I thought that was a good time to introduce nutes, but I will just use water from now on. Starting a journal now too

 

[Papageno]

Rules of thumb are just kinda about close enough...

You do not have enough fan leaf development to be doing much yet. The nutes from the seed are still plenty.

If you ever have a seed to just throw away...try sprouting it in a solo cup with perlite and see how far it gets on nothing but water before it shows an issue.

 

[Anonurse]

Noted. I'd be interested to see that. And BTW, my journal is up. Anonurse's Soil - Grow Tent - Sour D - 2015

 

[Papageno]

Just dawned on me...

Emylia and I are helping this guy do a DWC run. His journal is doing well and he is just about a week ahead of you. Give it a read. He is experiencing this right now. He has a bunch of plants in a res with a low nute concentration and they are taking up water but no nutes. Check out how big it has gotten and it isn't eating yet really.


ClosetCase420's - RDWC - 600W MH/HPS - Wonder Woman - Grow Journal - 2015

I think he is doing well it is a good read for those who want to learn about DWC.

 

[Emilya Green]

Update:
Plant A still looks like shaat, I hope it makes it. I still think it's due to a pH problem. I calibrated my digital meter using the calibration powder it came with but I don't trust the calibration. I've ordered a General Hydro pH calibration solution that will take about 2 weeks to arrive via Amazon! This is an urgent problem though so I will try and pick one up from a local hydro store this Saturday. With the current calibration, the runoff water pH is registering at ~7.4, and this is with a nute solution pH of ~5.

Two more seedlings have developed since the last time I posted. Heres plant B (looks like it's following in A's footsteps):

And plant C (showing a problem of its own):

I started adding nutrients on 11/23. I'm using an Earth Juice Bloom, Grow, and Catalyst mixture, and am following their feed schedule. I'm watering/ feeding every other day. The runoff is 115ppm (low?).

forget the runoff water... just make sure that all of your fluids going in are adjusted to 6.5 pH and you will be fine. Also, stop watering every other day. You absolutely have to let the bottom of your containers dry out between each watering. This is classic overwatering by watering too much, and your plants are suffering because of it.
Regarding nutes in very hot FFOF soil... you are going to fry these plants to a crisp if you keep this up. The plants do not need nutes right now... they need you to let the roots recover, especially on plant A.

 

[Anonurse]

It's interesting how quickly my grow went sour... I spent about a month researching how to grow MJ before starting and have extensive notes. Goes to show that theory is less important than experience! So thanks everyone for the help

 

[DeanB]

Read the whole thing and wanted to add that the plants don't like huge ph swings either. You started in RW 5.4 ph, then put them in FFOF 6.5 ph, then added nutes. You shouldn't have to adjust ph with that soil. It will do it for you. Might as well cancel that ph pen.

 

[Emilya Green]

Read the whole thing and wanted to add that the plants don't like huge ph swings either. You started in RW 5.4 ph, then put them in FFOF 6.5 ph, then added nutes. You shouldn't have to adjust ph with that soil. It will do it for you. Might as well cancel that ph pen.

sorry DeanB, but although I agree with you about not mixing drastically different grow methods in the same grow, using different pH requirements, advising that FFOF is self adjusting is simply not true in many cases. You may have been lucky enough to have water that works well with the FFOF without any adjusting, but I certainly did not. When I used FFOF I noticed an extremely strong pH drift and when I didn't water at 6.3-6.4 pH, the soil would quickly drift away from where it was able to pick up micronutrients. Having a pH pen and learning to adjust down to the lower end of the scale saved my grow. If I had continued to throw my 7.14 pH tap water at my garden without adjustment, I would have failed miserably. Yes the FoxFarm soil is designed to have a strong drift, but this does not mean that everyone can use it without adjusting pH, or that this was even the intent of the designers of the soil.

Recommending that someone cancel an order for an important piece of test equipment, a piece that other people are recommending, seems to be a pretty bold stance to take on a public forum where we are all working toward the best interests of the original poster. To take such a stand, you have to be willing to take the risk that this person, based on your advice, might fail in a grow where they might desperately need that medicine. I would not want that on my conscience. Better safe than sorry... Get the pH meter Anonurse.

 

[Papageno]

Hey I will add this and then I am out...

Not everyone has the same grow setup or conditions bla bla.

I grew for years with real shitty California water where 3 times a year it was in the news how toxic and poisonous it was. But I had a real good soil blend that takes care of just about anything I'd screw up. ..with the exception of Ph. But the Ph was decent so I got away with murder.

Now I have tap water with 12 ppm and my Ph is a bout 8.2. So um yeah. Now I have to Ph it.

So even the same grower using the same method must change the rules of the game depending on the situation.

So I gotta back Emy on dis... Ph pen or however you do it is a basic tool for any grower no matter how good you may think you are. Growing without one is fairly arrogant and just rude to the beautiful plants that are your babies.

 

[DeanB]

sorry DeanB, but although I agree with you about not mixing drastically different grow methods in the same grow, using different pH requirements, advising that FFOF is self adjusting is simply not true in many cases. You may have been lucky enough to have water that works well with the FFOF without any adjusting, but I certainly did not. When I used FFOF I noticed an extremely strong pH drift and when I didn't water at 6.3-6.4 pH, the soil would quickly drift away from where it was able to pick up micronutrients. Having a pH pen and learning to adjust down to the lower end of the scale saved my grow. If I had continued to throw my 7.14 pH tap water at my garden without adjustment, I would have failed miserably. Yes the FoxFarm soil is designed to have a strong drift, but this does not mean that everyone can use it without adjusting pH, or that this was even the intent of the designers of the soil.

Recommending that someone cancel an order for an important piece of test equipment, a piece that other people are recommending, seems to be a pretty bold stance to take on a public forum where we are all working toward the best interests of the original poster. To take such a stand, you have to be willing to take the risk that this person, based on your advice, might fail in a grow where they might desperately need that medicine. I would not want that on my conscience. Better safe than sorry... Get the pH meter Anonurse.

What he could do is add garden lime to his mix to fix the problem, then still cancel the pen. All sorts of opinions on the matter. The company even states it's "Perfect for containers and ready to use right out of the bag. Ocean Forest® is pH adjusted at 6.3 to 6.8 to allow for optimum fertilizer uptake. There's no need for nitrogen fertilizers at first; instead try an organic blend like FoxFarm Big Bloom® Liquid Plant Food to encourage strong branching and a sturdy, healthy growth habit."

Doesn't state you need a ph pen to use their soil. Ready to use right out of the bag.

All types of opinions, read below.

foxfarm soil and pH?

 

[Anonurse]

To clarify everyone. I already own a budget pH pen, but am just ordering 7.0 pH solution to accurately calibrate it. I've come to the conclusion I have a severe pH problem, compounded by amateur recuperative methods.

 

[Emilya Green]

Fox Farm is not unique in that they and many of the other commercial nute and soil companies state a lot of things, and not all of them are true... and of course, they will all state with complete seriousness that all goes best if you also use all of their other products along with the soil.

I would also never add something to a carefully and scientifically mixed soil like FFOF, just to chase down a problem that could easily be solved by adjusting the pH of the incoming fluids, not to mention that this amendment you suggest could not be taken back out again if pH needs changed later on in the grow.

yes, all types of opinions are out there, but what a new and struggling grower needs here, are answers. Not just opinions on the particular soil that they bought and then how it can be amended to suit this or that particular case. The new grower needs to know why this thing is happening to their garden, and how to fix it, in every soil, or for that matter, every medium, soilless included.

Learning about pH and its importance in our grows is important information that needs to be understood by all growers of weeds wanting to take this hobby seriously. I will happily listen to all your opinions to the contrary, but you are never going to convince me that a novice grower should be advised to start formulating their own special soil blends based on opinions from the internet, just to avoid having to buy a pH pen.

 

[Papageno]

@ Anonnurse .... I like being wrong...it supports my handle. Just start a journal and keep the updates rolling and we will get you there.


Hey Dean...that reads like you are agreeing with corporate advertising. Just saying bro...

The poster in the thread you showed says they have to add something to get FF to work in his situation. He adds something to fix there nutes that I never need to use. I don't know that this is supporting your claim that corporate advertising is correct and it is fine to water and walk away from your grow.

But I guess I should shut up because I said I was out. I just hate to see this drag on...

I am primarily an organic grower. I make my own nutes because it is better for the plants than mass produced garbage. So I don't have to fight with these problems.

When I do Hydro I go half and half both chemical but primarily I supplement with home brew teas because again those big companies haven't figured anything out that isn't just well known obvious stuff to people who are farmers or Horticulture scientists.

I can get all of the expensive bottles in the AN line out of one bucket in about 18 hours for about $2 per 5 gallons. But you have to know about how plants work and that aint something you get from chemical manufactures web sites.

The owner of one of the grow stores I go to told me that the AN rep let it slip that they get that stuff in the bottle for about $0.25 a bottle. This store makes their own and gets about 4/5 of the entire line in a bottle with label for about $2 and that is a smallish local store. Like I said I do it myself for the fun of it and I make enough for more plants that's I can grow for a few bucks myself.

I aint arguing...I am just splainin hows I dun it. And the point is I don't trust these advertising's. Believe it or not I actually get these guys in these stores to open up because I know how to talk the talk and I get the real dirt out of them.