Why organic nutrients do not work in coco

[rocco72]

All things considered those plants are 4 weeks old and certainly looking a whole lot better than those some others ask for help on. I do not understand all of the negativity about your project, even now that the photos were posted. I will admit that months ago I was one of the ones who brought up why it would not work the way you had presented the project back then. People are a bit stubborn and we tend to believe that how we are doing it is the best way and everyone else should follow our example.

Personally, I really do feel that growing in a coco coir based soil mix with organic fertilizers will work. I have been considering how to make it work for about a year now. Water soluble nutrients are a must, the more the better because of the very limited availability of microorganisms. Compost style teas would be great, and needed if auto watering systems are used. I have been considering teas using Roots Organics/Aurora Innovations for starters.

I am surprised that people are not willing to take on the challenge that your grow presents. You seem willing and able to try suggestions.

One suggestion that I can make is to supplement your current cal/mag routine with an iron supplement. My plants responded well to a dose of an Iron Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. For a planted aquarium the dosage is supposed to be 1 ml per 10 gallons but my containers are 1 or 2 gallon soil mix. After mixing 2-3 ml to one gallon of water I then poured approx 1 cup water to a 1 gallon of soil container and 2 cups to a container with 2 gallons of soil. A few 5 gallon containers with soil got about 3 cups though I notice less problem with the larger pots. I figure that I am not pushing the soil and the microorganisms as much in those larger amounts of soil. I do not know what the life span or availability in the soil is. Will I have to add it again once a year or 2-3 times a year? No idea.

It seems to have worked for me. Don't know if it will work for you. The Iron Supplement was left over from a planted aquarium project. It can be purchased at most tropical fish shops but I have not seen it in the pet sections at any department store.

Enjoy the day.

I'm with you on this one. Excellent project

All things considered those plants are 4 weeks old and certainly looking a whole lot better than those some others ask for help on. I do not understand all of the negativity about your project, even now that the photos were posted. I will admit that months ago I was one of the ones who brought up why it would not work the way you had presented the project back then. People are a bit stubborn and we tend to believe that how we are doing it is the best way and everyone else should follow our example.

Personally, I really do feel that growing in a coco coir based soil mix with organic fertilizers will work. I have been considering how to make it work for about a year now. Water soluble nutrients are a must, the more the better because of the very limited availability of microorganisms. Compost style teas would be great, and needed if auto watering systems are used. I have been considering teas using Roots Organics/Aurora Innovations for starters.

I am surprised that people are not willing to take on the challenge that your grow presents. You seem willing and able to try suggestions.

One suggestion that I can make is to supplement your current cal/mag routine with an iron supplement. My plants responded well to a dose of an Iron Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. For a planted aquarium the dosage is supposed to be 1 ml per 10 gallons but my containers are 1 or 2 gallon soil mix. After mixing 2-3 ml to one gallon of water I then poured approx 1 cup water to a 1 gallon of soil container and 2 cups to a container with 2 gallons of soil. A few 5 gallon containers with soil got about 3 cups though I notice less problem with the larger pots. I figure that I am not pushing the soil and the microorganisms as much in those larger amounts of soil. I do not know what the life span or availability in the soil is. Will I have to add it again once a year or 2-3 times a year? No idea.

It seems to have worked for me. Don't know if it will work for you. The Iron Supplement was left over from a planted aquarium project. It can be purchased at most tropical fish shops but I have not seen it in the pet sections at any department store.

Enjoy the day.

There are examples you can read up online that shows how a 5% amendment of biochar in coco peat was able to significantly increase the diameter of tomato fruits produced.

 

[The123321]

All things considered those plants are 4 weeks old and certainly looking a whole lot better than those some others ask for help on. I do not understand all of the negativity about your project, even now that the photos were posted. I will admit that months ago I was one of the ones who brought up why it would not work the way you had presented the project back then. People are a bit stubborn and we tend to believe that how we are doing it is the best way and everyone else should follow our example.

Personally, I really do feel that growing in a coco coir based soil mix with organic fertilizers will work. I have been considering how to make it work for about a year now. Water soluble nutrients are a must, the more the better because of the very limited availability of microorganisms. Compost style teas would be great, and needed if auto watering systems are used. I have been considering teas using Roots Organics/Aurora Innovations for starters.

I am surprised that people are not willing to take on the challenge that your grow presents. You seem willing and able to try suggestions.

One suggestion that I can make is to supplement your current cal/mag routine with an iron supplement. My plants responded well to a dose of an Iron Supplement for the Planted Aquarium. For a planted aquarium the dosage is supposed to be 1 ml per 10 gallons but my containers are 1 or 2 gallon soil mix. After mixing 2-3 ml to one gallon of water I then poured approx 1 cup water to a 1 gallon of soil container and 2 cups to a container with 2 gallons of soil. A few 5 gallon containers with soil got about 3 cups though I notice less problem with the larger pots. I figure that I am not pushing the soil and the microorganisms as much in those larger amounts of soil. I do not know what the life span or availability in the soil is. Will I have to add it again once a year or 2-3 times a year? No idea.

It seems to have worked for me. Don't know if it will work for you. The Iron Supplement was left over from a planted aquarium project. It can be purchased at most tropical fish shops but I have not seen it in the pet sections at any department store.

Enjoy the day.

Thank you for the information and helpful attitude. That is interesting about the iron. I may look into that for it. I think you are right about the water soluble nutrients and the dr earth dry amendments I am using are water soluble and are slow release and I think how they work is every time you water the plant it releases some of the nutrients. The dr earth also has microbes in it so I would assume then that it releases some of that when you water. I think from what I have read the teas would be a good way to introduce more microbes to the plants. I am in an apartment and the research I have done on making teas looks like something I do not want to do in my apartment. If I had a garage or something like that I may try that. I think things like the biotabs bactrex and things like the recharge may do something similar without the need to brew the teas. I think that the plants are looking better and I plan to do a top dressing in a few days though with a lower level of the nutrients than the bag recommends for it on there.

 

[The123321]

I'm with you on this one. Excellent project


There are examples you can read up online that shows how a 5% amendment of biochar in coco peat was able to significantly increase the diameter of tomato fruits produced.

Thanks. The more I read about biochar the more I think that adding in at like 5 - 10% of biochar in the coco perlite may help with the microbes in the pot with the plants. I may try that with the biotabs for it on there.

 

[Emilya Green]

Thanks. The more I read about biochar the more I think that adding in at like 5 - 10% of biochar in the coco perlite may help with the microbes in the pot with the plants. I may try that with the biotabs for it on there.

remember my warning about lockouts... more than 10% biochar in the medium is likely going to lock out NItrogen. Go very light with these powerful additives. To much potassium can easily lock out Nitrogen, calcium, phosphorus, boron and magnesium.

 

[Slicknick909]

I use biochar in my tomato plant LOS mix outside, never at more than 5% though, probably closer to 3%, a little goes a long way or you will definitely see lockout! @The123321 have you considered adding any vermiculite to your coco mixture? It may help with the life span of the microbes a bit.

 

[The123321]

Thanks. If I do try biochar I may do only 5% then. I did not know that about vermiculite. In a mix of 50 50 coco perlite how much vermiculite would you put in it? I have been doing some research online and have not found any information about vermiculite being helpful to microbes though I plan to keep looking into that for it on there.

 

[Slicknick909]

Thanks. If I do try biochar I may do only 5% then. I did not know that about vermiculite. In a mix of 50 50 coco perlite how much vermiculite would you put in it? I have been doing some research online and have not found any information about vermiculite being helpful to microbes though I plan to keep looking into that for it on there.

That's a lot of perlite, I don't mix more than 80/20, you don't really even need the perlite in coco. I would probably do a 60% coco, 20% vermiculite, 20% perlite mix to start. I don't know if it would directly help the microbes, but it would allow for more retention of the organic nutrients which in turn should theoretically help the microbes.

 

[rocco72]

Thank you for the information and helpful attitude. That is interesting about the iron. I may look into that for it. I think you are right about the water soluble nutrients and the dr earth dry amendments I am using are water soluble and are slow release and I think how they work is every time you water the plant it releases some of the nutrients. The dr earth also has microbes in it so I would assume then that it releases some of that when you water. I think from what I have read the teas would be a good way to introduce more microbes to the plants. I am in an apartment and the research I have done on making teas looks like something I do not want to do in my apartment. If I had a garage or something like that I may try that. I think things like the biotabs bactrex and things like the recharge may do something similar without the need to brew the teas. I think that the plants are looking better and I plan to do a top dressing in a few days though with a lower level of the nutrients than the bag recommends for it on there.
[/QUOTE


I live in an apartment too .. I use Nitrozyme . It's like a kind of tea minus the brew. Just add 1-2ml to a liter of water.

 

[The123321]

That's a lot of perlite, I don't mix more than 80/20, you don't really even need the perlite in coco. I would probably do a 60% coco, 20% vermiculite, 20% perlite mix to start. I don't know if it would directly help the microbes, but it would allow for more retention of the organic nutrients which in turn should theoretically help the microbes.

Thanks. The 2 plants I have going now have like 70 30 coco perlite. The biotabs just add water method that this link has details on

BioTabs

biotabs.nl

The biotabs just add tap water method recommends 50 50 coco perlite for use in autopots. I plan to follow the guide though I may add in biochar in 1 of the pots for it on there.

 

[The123321]

Thanks. I have the bactrex in the biotabs line on the way now and if I need more I was looking at the recharge line. It adds new microbes to the plants for it on there.

 

[SmokingWings]

I use biochar in my tomato plant LOS mix outside, never at more than 5% though, probably closer to 3%, a little goes a long way or you will definitely see lockout! @The123321 have you considered adding any vermiculite to your coco mixture? It may help with the life span of the microbes a bit.

I do not understand how the biochar would cause lockout. It is not biodegradable. It is inert. The soil bacteria and microorganisms live in and on it.

Wood ashes and softwood charcoals would and can decompose. To much wood ash will cause problems before long.

Several different internet searches over the last year or so indicate that biochar does not decompose. The biochar that the farmers mixed into their soil a 1,000 years ago is still there. One study was concluding that biochar could remain in the soil as biochar for 2 or 3 thousand years. Most of the science discussion of why it does not decompose even though it is made of organic materials is a bit more than I can quickly figure out. Basics are that the intense heat and the smothering of the fires cause the char to change and instead of being like the small pieces of burnt wood from a camp fire the pieces are harder, almost like a hard tar. Closest I can think of to explain is to compare it to crude oil. The oil is made up of carbon based organic materials. After processing the plastics are still carbon based but not something that can be easily used to grow plants in.

Otherwise, a basic 5 to 10% mix of biochar to soil seems to be standard. That is for a biochar that has already been inoculated. @The123321, if you are still planning on adding biochar then check that it has already been inoculated. Not all that hard to do it but it is something else that can take several weeks up to a month.

 

[SmokingWings]

I live in an apartment too .. I use Nitrozyme . It's like a kind of tea minus the brew. Just add 1-2ml to a liter of water.

Yep, something along these lines.

I remember seeing other products when walking around a grow or hydro shop. They will be dry or liquid and when added to water will make a tea that acts similar to a standard compost tea. The business did all the dirty work and the consumer gets the end result. No mess and minimal time to wait for brewing.

There are more products to consider that could be used as the base of a tea. I was thinking along the lines of mixing one or two amendments to water and letting soak. Using a table spoon or two of a powdered or liquid fish emulsion mixed in a gallon of water for a nitrogen boost. Any sediment would then be poured onto the top of the coco mix just like any other top dressing.

No need to make teas with 5 gallon buckets and a bubbler.

 

[Emilya Green]

I do not understand how the biochar would cause lockout. It is not biodegradable. It is inert. The soil bacteria and microorganisms live in and on it.

The problem is that potash contains extremely large amounts of water soluble potassium. Loading too much K into the soil restricts the ability for several other elements to also be available to the plant in that medium and at some point can lock out the ability for the plant to get to all the Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Calcium, and Magnesium that it needs.

 

[The123321]

Thanks. I do not think that the biochar has microbes in it. The bactrex in the biotabs line is listed to be the dry water-soluble powder with a large number of beneficial soil and root microbes including 6 strains of Bacillus spp. Trichoderma fungi and actinomycetes in it. That would do a similar thing to what the teas would do right? That is similar to what the recharge microbe product does right? I plan to only put around 5-10% biochar in the plant I am trying it in. Then I plan to have 1 plant without the biochar then see what plant does better for it on there.

Do you think that the biochar would also help keep some bugs out of the coco? I think I have read in the past that charcoal keeps bugs away so would biochar have some benefit to prevent bugs for it on there?

 

[Emilya Green]

I think you are on the right track with the biotabs and going light with the biochar. I am anxious to see the results of the side by side.

 

[The123321]

Thanks.

 

[Dragoond2]

So I did not read this whole thread so not sure if anyone has said this. On youtube their is the channel mr. Canucks grow he uses coco coir and organic dry amendments from gaia green. The bad thing is they are not available in the states. He is in Canada so I'm waiting for it to come to the states before I try coco. Right now I use soil and the green sunshine company nutes.

 

[The123321]

Thanks. I have watched a few youtube videos. There is dr earth dry fertilizer in the us if you are looking for something like gaia green to use for it on there.

 

[HaremMasterOG]

It just sounds to me like you want to take a good amount of the money in your pocket and transfer it to someone elses pocket. Throw enough money at a grow and all sorts of silly and artificial things can be accomplished.

It sounds like you have this all figured out and someone has told you what to do. I don't see the point in coming on here and asking us if it will work then... most of the experienced growers in the forums have already found a method that works for them without having to jump through hoops and do all sorts of extra things like you are going to have to do here. It sounds like you are in it for the challenge, so good luck... but don't expect us to endorse this method... especially for a new grower. I will also say that you are not the first or the last person that the popular Mr. Canuck has led astray.

no need to slag Mr Canuck.. he's growing prolifically and producing very professional and user-friendly content, for a large following.. his MAIN goals, often repeated in his videos, are quality - to his subjective standards, and simplicity - as measured by procedural time-savings. Very recently, he introduced a parallel grow to compare performance of a bagged 'living soil' vs his usual coco/dry-amendment method. He's also documented grows with and without activated compost teas. Bottom line, at least in terms of this discussion thread, is Mr Canuck is an experienced grower producing great results with any of these methods and no method is necessarily better than another. Living soil is undoubtedly the more 'natural' approach. However, I believe the majority of people may find that buying all the ingredients necessary to create living soil, combined with the unwavering commitment keeping it alive Maybe more than what most people are prepared to put into their part-time or perpetual growing. I think that is why living soil will remain a 'purist' method. No bones for contention here .. at least for this proponent of fair treatment of ALL growers, regardless of their chosen growing method.

 

[Aero808]

The fastest growing and most vigorous plants I've ever grown were grown using organic dry amendments in coco. Just saying.