Over watering organic soil pH 5.5

[Reggaehealing]

Hey
I just started to grow my first set. One Northern Light 4 weeks, One Cheese 3 weeks, one Skunk 4 weeks wich seems to have some problems...
Allmost all of the leaves have some yellow contrast in them, and most of the upper ones is pretty yellow alltrough. She do not have as much power in the leaves, as the other plants.
But I have been giving the same amount of food and water to all of them.
I messured the run of PH yesterday and it was down at 5,5. So I put some lemon peels in the soil. Maybe it can be because of this?
But then the PH was about 5,5 for all of the plants.
Here yall see:


Is there just whatering or something more?

 

[Emilya Green]

all the lemon peels are going to do is draw bugs, and measuring runoff pH tells you absolutely nothing... what is important is what the pH is of the fluid that you saturate your soil with... if it is 6.5, so will the soil inside of the container, at least for that moment. From that moment on however, the pH starts creeping upward as it reacts to the things in the soil. Make sure that you adjust to 6.5 each time for all fluids you use on your plants... the soil will take care of itself.

But now, lets talk about your real problem. You appear to be an over waterer. By that, I don't mean how much you apply each time, because to do it right you must saturate your soil to runoff.... what I mean is that you are watering too often. Your tops look like the do because your roots are damaged, you are drowning them... and because your roots are damaged, your plants are unable to get the nutrients that they need, so as a result, the new growth is suffering and the old growth is being cannibalized to try to offset this problem. Right now, the plant is losing this battle, and you really need to adjust how you water, immediately.

Do some research on the "lift method" to determine when it is time to water the next time. Weeds need a clear wet/dry cycle and in each cycle the roots need to see some oxygen. If you keep coming along every day or other day or watering when you think it has dried out down to your first or second knuckle, the lower 1/2 to 1/3 of your container NEVER dries out. These are the roots that are in trouble, and from the looks of your plant you might even have developed some root rot. You can fix this... let them dry out.

 

[Reggaehealing]

Alright thank you Emiliya!
I havent watered for 3 days now (this is where I normalle wouldt have watered), the Soil is just a little bit wet on the bottom of my knuckle. So Ill be waiting some more.
Is there smart to let it have some ekstra time to get fully dried the over watering? or Should I water just after its dry?

 

[Emilya Green]

Alright thank you Emiliya!
I havent watered for 3 days now (this is where I normalle wouldt have watered), the Soil is just a little bit wet on the bottom of my knuckle. So Ill be waiting some more.
Is there smart to let it have some ekstra time to get fully dried the over watering? or Should I water just after its dry?

yes, stop using your knuckles as an indication of when to water... what is happening at the top of the container tells you nothing about what is happening at the bottom, where the roots are drowning. Lift that container up, and if you feel ANY water weight at all, it is not time to water yet. Let her dry out clear to the bottom, and then and only then water again.

 

[fanleaf]

yes, stop using your knuckles as an indication of when to water... what is happening at the top of the container tells you nothing about what is happening at the bottom, where the roots are drowning. Lift that container up, and if you feel ANY water weight at all, it is not time to water yet. Let her dry out clear to the bottom, and then and only then water again.

This is 100% correct. To add to this you will see soil pH drop lower and lower no matter what pH you water at if you keep over watering. Most organic soils contain peat moss and if saturated over and over the peat will deteriorate and then the soil will not buffer as it should.. When peat deteriorates faster than it should your soil goes acidic fast!

Don't ask me how I learned that.

 

[Reggaehealing]

Hey again!
I have been following you guys step by lifting the pot for the watering. And think im starting to get ahold on it.
But the skunk isnt really getting real healty. Im pretty shure she is getting the right watering now. But she still keep having those yellow leaves. And I turned them all over to flowering for 3 weeks ago. Both the Northern light and Cheese seems to produce some nice buds
While Skunk is just getting small popcorns every where... The main cola looks verry weird, as it just have a hundred spikes that seems like leaves out of it. IT allso loose leaves verry fast. The lover leaves are green but turn yellow and fall off pretty fast...
It is allso a few s curved leaves around the main cola.
The ph of the run of water is around 6,5 the colour is orange ish.
Any one know what to do? Or if I at all should do something as she have been having yellow colas from the verry beggining......

 

[Emilya Green]

Congratulations on learning the lift method, and using that instead of the knuckle method is helping out quite a bit! Your plants look a lot better, but now you are having a trace element deficiency, as noted by the yellowing in the upper new growth. This is caused by improper pH.

The correct value to adjust your water or water/nutes to is 6.5 in a soil grow. Stop overthinking this. Measuring the runoff pH is just confusing you, and its value is not important to you at this time. Measuring soil pH is also a waste of time, soil pH drifts upward from the moment you water, and at best a measurement is simply a moment in time. Just make sure that every fluid that hits your plants is adjusted to 6.5 pH, and you will see your garden respond.

 

[Reggaehealing]

haha thanks, its in the respect of you Emiliya it got learned

But I find it alittle bit weird that ph should be the problem as I allways have been checking the PH of the water that I have been giving...
And isnt there alittle weird that the runof water is so much more yellow than the other plants?
Cud there be rot? or maybe something cousing it not to take up enough of the right nutrients?

 

[Emilya Green]

haha thanks, its in the respect of you Emiliya it got learned

But I find it alittle bit weird that ph should be the problem as I allways have been checking the PH of the water that I have been giving...
And isnt there alittle weird that the runof water is so much more yellow than the other plants?
Cud there be rot? or maybe something cousing it not to take up enough of the right nutrients?

glad to have been able to help...

yes on all your suppositions regarding the yellow runoff, but again, it means little as far as how you should water. Also, don't forget the lemon peels that you put in your soil attempting to adjust your run off pH.... That has to be breaking down and going somewhere.

Have you been adjusting your pH to 6.5? there is only a small range, 6.3-6.8 where pH allows your nutrients to be mobile... if you are out of that range, or starting off too high in that range and allowing soil drift to take it out of range, you are of course going to have pH related problems, including wasted nutrients. Also, not every plant or strain is going to take to your soil/nutes/habits exactly the same as the next one. It makes perfect sense that one plant is reacting in ways that the others are not... think of this sensitive one as your canary in the gold mine.

 

[Reggaehealing]

I took out the lemon peels emidiatly after you sad that they whould drag bugs..
Yes I allways PH the water before I give it to them, I use the drops so ofcourse its not exactly 6,5 but verry close everytime.

 

[Emilya Green]

I took out the lemon peels emidiatly after you sad that they whould drag bugs..
Yes I allways PH the water before I give it to them, I use the drops so ofcourse its not exactly 6,5 but verry close everytime.

very good! that one giving yellow runoff and looking so yellow is definitely a problem then... you got me stumped what is going on though.

 

[DankWolf907]

I took out the lemon peels emidiatly after you sad that they whould drag bugs..
Yes I allways PH the water before I give it to them, I use the drops so ofcourse its not exactly 6,5 but verry close everytime.

Not sure about this one, Em?

Lemon rinds are rich(not as rich as banana) in potassium, take time to decompose, but...that is 'organic'.

Bobrown changed my mind on bugs when he put it like this:

Hey folks regarding bugs. They are a living things just like the soil we use. We occasionally will get pests that will harm our ladies, its a fact of life.

What I do is have an IPM (integrated pest management) regimen that we use. This consists of Kelp Meal & neen CAKE foiler spray 2x a week very weak mix. This keeps the plants healthy and happy.

If I see gnats or any insects I will add in a few tbs/gal of Monterrey Insect Spray (spinosad), which is totally organic.

With gnats or any insects really, they have a life cycle. You need to understand what that life cycle is and try and break it. Say if they lay eggs/reproduce every 5 days, we need to spray more often than 5 days (2 times at minimum). That kills the bugs before they get a chance to reproduce AND kill the next round as well, breaking that life cycle.

All that said - healthy plants and healthy soil really are the best defense against pests. In our outdoor gardens we do absolutely nothing and all is well. If you could see whats going on in our worm bins you'd probably never use that soil for anything, but at the end of the process its all good.


Over the years I've had very little issues. The ONE bug that can be devastating and hard to get rid of is spider mites. That's a tear everything down and start over type of infestation. This insect gets out of hand FAST, specially with fans blowing.

 

[Emilya Green]

Not sure about this one, Em?

Lemon rinds are rich(not as rich as banana) in potassium, take time to decompose, but...that is 'organic'.

Bobrown changed my mind on bugs when he put it like this:

yeah, not at all sure actually... and some bugs are not that big of a problem if dealt with correctly. For instance, I use compost in my base soil mix, and of course gnats love that stuff. On the list of things that they eat though, all the stuff in the compost is way more desirable than my roots, and aside from the annoyance factor and sheer ease of getting rid of them with a little bit of NEEM, I probably wouldn't even worry about them.

putting lemon rinds in a 3 month soil and expecting them to break down though... this isn't going to happen. Putting them in there trying to permanently change the soil pH, that just sounded dangerous. It is much easier just to pH the water going in.

 

[Hambone555]

This is 100% correct. To add to this you will see soil pH drop lower and lower no matter what pH you water at if you keep over watering. Most organic soils contain peat moss and if saturated over and over the peat will deteriorate and then the soil will not buffer as it should.. When peat deteriorates faster than it should your soil goes acidic fast!

Don't ask me how I learned that.

 

[bobrown14]

I have mites now, ffs... I don't tear down my room anymore. I get them with room temps close to 90F. They are everywhere outside but inside they have no predators nor much wind and rain.

Just IPM - do it again every other day for a few weeks then back to 1x a week. Keep a close eye out.

Water and organic soil. Rain water is a blessing. We use that and RO water so I never pH test anything really. Been using a lot more rain water lately in VEG.

RO is always 6.5pH.

Be mindful of the chems you are using to change pH - they can have a negative effect on soil microbes. There are natural organic ways to raise / lower pH. Sulfur will lower it. So there are amendments with sulfur in them. Go easy very easy.

Soluble Calcium for raising. I never had good luck that I remember messing with pH of my water. Most times close is good enough.

 

[Hambone555]

I have a question about soil and pH. Does soil run hot when you first use it or is there something in the soils that make the pH run high when you first use it??

I have been having serious issues with soil pH this year and lockouts.

My plants are in the soil, IN THE GROUND, outdoors. I just changed all my soil yesterday from what I was using prior. The reasoning is because I thought that maybe my soil was TOO HOT from mixing the cattle maneur and The mycorrhizae to close to transplant. (Not enough time to break down) My ratio was approx 4 or closer to 5 to 1 of Pro Mix HP Mycorrhizae to cattle manure soil. My Plants doing horribly in the soil this year. Started from seed.

So I dug up all the plants and the holes with the old mix and put new mix in. I used the Stepwell Supersoil in the bottoms of the holes approx. 2 feet at the bottom and top foot of the hole is Pro Mix Mycorrhizae with a 1/2 cup of worm compost in each hole mixed into the mycorrhizae. My pH today is just under 8.

I use rain water. Which has a pH of 6.98. On most days. But I always bring it down to 7.0 as my starting point. So I dropped the pH of the water to 5.2 (the formula as stated in the Marijuana grow bible 3 rd edition on page 243) would lower it to a pH of 6. But the soil is still at a pH of 7.8 to 8.1.

I know it’s a little too soon for it to have dropped by now....... but I have this feeling that it will NOT DROP....AGAIN! I’m about ready to pull them all out and say f*ck it this year. Hasn’t been a pleasant experience at all for me. Everything was great from germination to week 4 of veg (INDOORS) hardened them off for about 12 days. Everyone else who took their plants appear to be doing well to extremely well except for mine. I’m. At a loss. I don’t get it. I did my home work on this for the better part of 8 months and still learning of course.....with a few f*ck ups along the way but here I thought I would be ahead of the curve.

Today is day 50 of veg... ‍

Oh.... and I did use about 3 Tbsp of Bokashi as soil dressing and Dalmtaceous earth (light dusting) before watering

 

[Emilya Green]

As your results showed you, somehow in all of this you apparently shot yourself in the foot. Outside, in the ground, you are in a special situation. You have done many things right, with the supersoil in the bottom, the EWC and the light soil with myco and even manure for good measure. I don't like the word hot when it comes to describing soil. I prefer the term "rich" when it comes to using this soil to grow a weed, because weeds adapt to whatever environment they find themselves in. Hot to me describes a nutrient mix that is too strong, and one that causes the leaf tips to curl downward as if in pain... but soil can be adapted to as the roots reach out to see what they can find.
So what did you do wrong? It has to be all of this pH stuff. Nature does not adjust pH downward. Nature knows that within the soil, depending on what is found there, pH is widely different in one area to the next, as is the nature of things. If the roots find something odd, they adapt to it. Since they are not forced into that situation, but do it by choice, there is no adverse reaction. These plants have an internal pH of 6.1. We know that in soil they like to be within a range of 6.2-6.8, and in soil the deepest roots will easily reach out of the holes you have made for them and explore the actual soil but mainly they are dealing with the mix you made for them in the holes. In those holes you have put supersoil in the bottom and then your promix/manure/ewc mix. The promix is buffered to the high end, but not to 8. The point however is that you have living supersoil in there, in contact with the earth so it is thriving with life down there and at a completely different pH than the buffered promix above it. I don't see how you are determining that your overall pH is 8, and that you need to adjust to that somehow. You have added acid to perfectly good rainwater and then poured this in the hole. Each time you do this you strip that hole of some of its micro life. You drop the pH of your water to a point that does not support nutrient availability in the hole and then that filters down through your once alive supersoil and down into the earth. Eventually the low pH gets buffered out with the lime in the promix working overtime and the natural ability of the soil around the hole to recover, so the roots do see some normalcy in and around the hole... but it certainly isn't optimum. You over thought this and was working on the assumption that your soil pH was too high and that you needed to adjust it. You are in a quintessentially organic grow, outside in nature no less, and you have no need to worry about the pH if it is in normal limits. Your attempts to adjust it has harmed this grow by not only knocking it out of the pH range for a good portion of the time, but by also killing the microbes and fungi surrounding your plant.
You need to recharge that hole with active microbes, and stop messing with the pH. Let it naturally find its balance, and the roots will adjust to the variety you have provided for them and they will thrive in that loose and enriched environment. Rain water is nearly neutral in pH and it allows this natural process to happen... it could have been so much easier!

 

[Hambone555]

As your results showed you, somehow in all of this you apparently shot yourself in the foot. Outside, in the ground, you are in a special situation. You have done many things right, with the supersoil in the bottom, the EWC and the light soil with myco and even manure for good measure. I don't like the word hot when it comes to describing soil. I prefer the term "rich" when it comes to using this soil to grow a weed, because weeds adapt to whatever environment they find themselves in. Hot to me describes a nutrient mix that is too strong, and one that causes the leaf tips to curl downward as if in pain... but soil can be adapted to as the roots reach out to see what they can find.
So what did you do wrong? It has to be all of this pH stuff. Nature does not adjust pH downward. Nature knows that within the soil, depending on what is found there, pH is widely different in one area to the next, as is the nature of things. If the roots find something odd, they adapt to it. Since they are not forced into that situation, but do it by choice, there is no adverse reaction. These plants have an internal pH of 6.1. We know that in soil they like to be within a range of 6.2-6.8, and in soil the deepest roots will easily reach out of the holes you have made for them and explore the actual soil but mainly they are dealing with the mix you made for them in the holes. In those holes you have put supersoil in the bottom and then your promix/manure/ewc mix. The promix is buffered to the high end, but not to 8. The point however is that you have living supersoil in there, in contact with the earth so it is thriving with life down there and at a completely different pH than the buffered promix above it. I don't see how you are determining that your overall pH is 8, and that you need to adjust to that somehow. You have added acid to perfectly good rainwater and then poured this in the hole. Each time you do this you strip that hole of some of its micro life. You drop the pH of your water to a point that does not support nutrient availability in the hole and then that filters down through your once alive supersoil and down into the earth. Eventually the low pH gets buffered out with the lime in the promix working overtime and the natural ability of the soil around the hole to recover, so the roots do see some normalcy in and around the hole... but it certainly isn't optimum. You over thought this and was working on the assumption that your soil pH was too high and that you needed to adjust it. You are in a quintessentially organic grow, outside in nature no less, and you have no need to worry about the pH if it is in normal limits. Your attempts to adjust it has harmed this grow by not only knocking it out of the pH range for a good portion of the time, but by also killing the microbes and fungi surrounding your plant.
You need to recharge that hole with active microbes, and stop messing with the pH. Let it naturally find its balance, and the roots will adjust to the variety you have provided for them and they will thrive in that loose and enriched environment. Rain water is nearly neutral in pH and it allows this natural process to happen... it could have been so much easier!

I agree with everything you said Em. All of it!! And you’re right... I shot myself in the foot, BIG TIME!! We spend time reading these acclaimed books and principles in whatever field of study we choose. However, a lot of the times this information is so one sided and rarely explores all the facets and considerations involved and we take and perceive this information as being the answers or solutions to the path we choose. Which leaves a lot of room for error. Well, I have learned my lesson.

I did use great white when I replanted though. So I am hopefully that this will help things along. I will only Doing watering at a pH of 6.3 from now on and my AACT every two weeks from this point on. It is what it is.

I also have RAW Yucca, Raw flow and Silica.... from NPK laboratories. I’m not sure if any of you have any experience with these or should I just throw them out??

Cheers

 

[Emilya Green]

I would not even adjust to 6.3... just let it go. pH is not important in an organic grow. I do supplement with aloe juice that I bought in a gallon jug from walmart and it noticeably strengthens the plants. I have a new favorite product that would be very helpful to you to recharge that soil and get things going right again... RealGrower's Recharge. $8 for this 3 part trial pack. Good stuff. AACT is good too... but Recharge is now in my tool kit too.

91WFYQLqdrL._SL1500_ (1).jpg

• Emilya Green
• Jun 26, 2019

microbial super pack

 

[bobrown14]

Hamboe555,


pH testing rain water?? You need to do a little research on exactly what pH is and how it would relate to rain water. That's similar to testing pH of distilled water.

I think you're over thinking things.

Problem with growing in (cow) manure based compost are many. This is a medium you need to know how long the composting process has gone - is the manure for use on vegetable gardens... lots of questions on that stuff. I don't use it. Too many variables. Likely you issue is not pH but your manure and soil mix.

For example on the manure. Were the cows grass fed or feed lot fed? Gonna be a huge difference in quality of the manure for gardening. It's going to be high phosphate and high Nitrogen regardless. Both of those a little goes a long way. There are better sources for each than manure from cattle.

Gardening outdoors in a hole - you don't need to pH anything. Are there other plants growing say withing 100yards of your cannabis plants? If so are they green and alive? They likely are so the soil is what it is and you can't change the pH easily if at all. The only thing you can do is temporarily change the soil pH. You don't have a way to test it properly anyway so focus on your humus that you are using for your plantings.

Suggest a lot more peat and a lot more EWC and/or Vermi-compost. You need a calcium source like fish bone meal, crab/crustacean meal, gypsum and oyster shell flour. All of these are sold at your local feed store (they likely feed them to the animals that you got the manure from).

IF you're growing outdoors do you have a compost pile (not manure or with green manure)?


Outdoor gardening is a lot more forgiving than in a container. It should be easier outside in the ground. Manure was likely your issue - too much of a good thing.