Icemud's Budmaster LED Grow Light Journal: Hybrid LED's & 730nm Far Red Triggering

[ShiggityFlip]

Re: Icemud's Budmaster LED Grow Light Journal - Hybrid LED's & 730nm Far Red Triggeri

Just found some black cherry soda x tange seeds I misplaced. They are getting popped this week!

 

[NorCaliwood]

Re: Icemud's Budmaster LED Grow Light Journal - Hybrid LED's & 730nm Far Red Triggeri

Drive by... Hey IF I say something that makes no sense,,, chalk it up to lack of oxygen on my part. JK.. But I seen ya talking about the disappointing yield you got. If thats right,, seeing I can't read and mainly look at pictures, my best yields have always been with a well-rounded light. I don't think there is a way to take out different colors, and use only small amounts and expect results. Plants have evolved forever under that big ball in the sky. And whatever color spectrum most imitates it wins. I think plain and simple. Removing colors from a spectrume that has evoloved over millions of years has alot to do with great plants. I use 1500 watt HPS bulbs when posiable, but I still like to hang acouple cfl blue, Daylight' bulbs to round out my colors... I'm way off track, but using alot of red in your flower?
I stay with pictures But I may of been of track. Never learnt to read much...

Still enjoy your harvest.. Congrats and Keepem Green

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Budmaster LED Grow Light Journal - Hybrid LED's & 730nm Far Red Triggeri

Just found some black cherry soda x tange seeds I misplaced. They are getting popped this week!

I was wondering when I would see those pop up on instgram LOL

So far I have 1 tester that has run them, and I've tasted the final result... very very different tasting and range of phenotype expressions. Flavors go from orange cremesicle to almost a sweet muffin dough taste, one pheno was like mint chocolate dough. A few also have purpling early in flowering. Very good strain though and the grower that is running them for me is very happy with them.

 

[ShiggityFlip]

Re: Icemud's Budmaster LED Grow Light Journal - Hybrid LED's & 730nm Far Red Triggeri

I am excited Ice. I loved black cherry soda as a kid. I hope I get some of that. But creamsickle sounds delish!! Or mint. Should be fun. Soaking today and planting tomorrow.

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Budmaster LED Grow Light Journal - Hybrid LED's & 730nm Far Red Triggeri

Drive by... Hey IF I say something that makes no sense,,, chalk it up to lack of oxygen on my part. JK.. But I seen ya talking about the disappointing yield you got. If thats right,, seeing I can't read and mainly look at pictures, my best yields have always been with a well-rounded light. I don't think there is a way to take out different colors, and use only small amounts and expect results. Plants have evolved forever under that big ball in the sky. And whatever color spectrum most imitates it wins. I think plain and simple. Removing colors from a spectrume that has evoloved over millions of years has alot to do with great plants. I use 1500 watt HPS bulbs when posiable, but I still like to hang acouple cfl blue, Daylight' bulbs to round out my colors... I'm way off track, but using alot of red in your flower?
I stay with pictures But I may of been of track. Never learnt to read much...

Still enjoy your harvest.. Congrats and Keepem Green

Thanks Norcaliwood...

Yea this grow was a test of using Far Red light to "trick" the plant into having a shorter flowering cycle. It did work as intended and I cut 12 days off my harvests of multiple strains, however, with 12 less days of flowering, it also reduced the weight (which was pretty much expected). I do think that far red light may have some use but more has to be experimented with to see if its beneficial or not.

This grow though didn't have to do with lack of spectrrum though as my lights are full spectrum. It was just a test of using far red light for 15 minutes after the normal lights went out

I do agree that plants need a full spectrum though. But the balance of what wavelengths, is still not known completely as there are 2 sides to plant lighting. (how a light drives photosynthesis, and how the plant reacts by photomorphogenics) Photosynthesis is closely related to the Mcree curve however its mainly based on absorbed photons which on the modified mcree curve, most wavelengths are absorbed nearly equal. Green is absorbed slightly less by about 15% but not by much, and at high intensity this actually changes and becomes more efficient than other colors. So when thinking in terms of photosynthesis, there is very little difference between the wavelengths where a completely blue spectrum will keep up with a full spectrum white light, at the same PPFD. However, the morphologiccal effects of the blue spectrum vs the white spectrum will be completely different. We know a lot about the photosynthesis spectrum, but not much about the morphological effects which scientists are still trying to figure out.

So this far red grow I did was the results of testing morphological response. Using UV-B light is also a morphological response which activates a SAR response.

 

[Icemud]

Re: Icemud's Budmaster LED Grow Light Journal - Hybrid LED's & 730nm Far Red Triggeri

I am excited Ice. I loved black cherry soda as a kid. I hope I get some of that. But creamsickle sounds delish!! Or mint. Should be fun. Soaking today and planting tomorrow.

I'll ask my buddy if he is cool with me posting some photos of the plants and buds. Not sure if he wants me to or not so I'd rather get his permission first. He has different seeds then you do though. He got my BCS x Tangie 6 which was my taller purple pheno with a sweeter taste. I can't remember which ones you have but I think I sent BCS x Tangie 3 or 5. Both of those were much stronger terp profiles, but more of a pungent orange rind/grapefruit type smell, less sweet. Tangie 3 and 5 didn't purple so not sure if yours will or not since BCS slightly purples but not a whole lot. Definitely 2 of my most pungent strains though, so should be very terpy and delicious

More Muddy Genes Beans creations to come... if I can ever get damn pollen out of my pollen sacks...LOL I'm 1 for 3 so far.

The official name of that cross is Black and Tange

 

[Gazoo]

Re: Icemud's Budmaster LED Grow Light Journal - Hybrid LED's & 730nm Far Red Triggeri

Thanks Norcaliwood...

Yea this grow was a test of using Far Red light to "trick" the plant into having a shorter flowering cycle. It did work as intended and I cut 12 days off my harvests of multiple strains, however, with 12 less days of flowering, it also reduced the weight (which was pretty much expected). I do think that far red light may have some use but more has to be experimented with to see if its beneficial or not.

This grow though didn't have to do with lack of spectrrum though as my lights are full spectrum. It was just a test of using far red light for 15 minutes after the normal lights went out

I do agree that plants need a full spectrum though. But the balance of what wavelengths, is still not known completely as there are 2 sides to plant lighting. (how a light drives photosynthesis, and how the plant reacts by photomorphogenics) Photosynthesis is closely related to the Mcree curve however its mainly based on absorbed photons which on the modified mcree curve, most wavelengths are absorbed nearly equal. Green is absorbed slightly less by about 15% but not by much, and at high intensity this actually changes and becomes more efficient than other colors. So when thinking in terms of photosynthesis, there is very little difference between the wavelengths where a completely blue spectrum will keep up with a full spectrum white light, at the same PPFD. However, the morphologiccal effects of the blue spectrum vs the white spectrum will be completely different. We know a lot about the photosynthesis spectrum, but not much about the morphological effects which scientists are still trying to figure out.

So this far red grow I did was the results of testing morphological response. Using UV-B light is also a morphological response which activates a SAR response.

Thanks for this insight, Much appreciated BTW What is the SAR response you mentioned
"Using UV-B light is also a morphological response which activates a SAR response. "

I ask because I just added a Full Spectrum HORTILUX T5 with UV-A & B as a lower
supplemental light. I know I could google it but you sure seem to understand this better
then me so who better to ask

 

[Teddy Edwards]

Re: Icemud's Budmaster LED Grow Light Journal - Hybrid LED's & 730nm Far Red Triggeri

Hope all is well in your world.

Thanks for sharing this grow with us. Great work and tremendously informative as always.

Please head over to the 420 Strain Reviews forum and post your smoke report there too.

I’m moving this to Completed Journals now.

Sending you lots of love and positive energy.

 

[Icemud]

Hey Everyone... This journal ended 2 years ago back in 2017, but I recently came across this video talking about Far Red light. Throughout this journal I pretty much explained most of what this video shows, but this video is excellent at explaining SOME of the effects that far red light have on plants (not all). In this video, you will see Dr. Bugbee, who is one of the leading plant lighting researchers, and very well respected among plant light enthusiasts. As you will see, he actually reinforces much of what I explained in this journal... Excellent video!

 

[Gazoo]

Hey Everyone... This journal ended 2 years ago back in 2017, but I recently came across this video talking about Far Red light. Throughout this journal I pretty much explained most of what this video shows, but this video is excellent at explaining SOME of the effects that far red light have on plants (not all). In this video, you will see Dr. Bugbee, who is one of the leading plant lighting researchers, and very well respected among plant light enthusiasts. As you will see, he actually reinforces much of what I explained in this journal... Excellent video!

Awesome, Thanks for that Very nicely explained

 

[Big Sparks]

Hey Everyone... This journal ended 2 years ago back in 2017, but I recently came across this video talking about Far Red light. Throughout this journal I pretty much explained most of what this video shows, but this video is excellent at explaining SOME of the effects that far red light have on plants (not all). In this video, you will see Dr. Bugbee, who is one of the leading plant lighting researchers, and very well respected among plant light enthusiasts. As you will see, he actually reinforces much of what I explained in this journal... Excellent video!

Thanks for posting brother Icemudd!

 

[leblanca]

Hey Everyone... This journal ended 2 years ago back in 2017, but I recently came across this video talking about Far Red light. Throughout this journal I pretty much explained most of what this video shows, but this video is excellent at explaining SOME of the effects that far red light have on plants (not all). In this video, you will see Dr. Bugbee, who is one of the leading plant lighting researchers, and very well respected among plant light enthusiasts. As you will see, he actually reinforces much of what I explained in this journal... Excellent video!

I just watched the video and it seems that cannabis would be a shade avoidance plant and would stretch with far red light so i dont see how this would be benefecial.

 

[Icemud]

I just watched the video and it seems that cannabis would be a shade avoidance plant and would stretch with far red light so i dont see how this would be benefecial.

There are many different uses for Far Red... whether or not its beneficial is really up to the user, and the end goal... For instance, if you are growing short/stout 100% indica's with very tight internodes, then increasing the Far Red light could be beneficial to stretch out the plant and give better light penetration to the bud sights and lowers.... It can be used for flower triggering to shorten the flowering cycle... although this is still being experiemented on, I did find it shortened my cycle by about 1 week which could benefit those growing long flowering african sativa's... So really it depends on the use, and the goal..

 

[leblanca]

I understand what you mean, so Far red is more of a manipulation tool for plant behavior than an actual spectrum that will give you bigger buds or more dry weight, or more terps or more potent buds.

 

[Icemud]

I understand what you mean, so Far red is more of a manipulation tool for plant behavior than an actual spectrum that will give you bigger buds or more dry weight, or more terps or more potent buds.

Sort of... It can influence a lot of different things depending on how its used.... For instance when you have "visible light" between 400nm (purple) and red (700nm) it all is used by plants for photosynthesis.... however, if you add Far Red light + Visible light.. you get a "turbocharge" on the plants photosynthetic rate, higher than each source would drive the plant if just added together separately.... This is called the Emerson effect...

Typically when considering plant lighting and its effects... there are 2 areas to look at... Photosynthetic.. (plant metabolism) and Photomophogenic (growth related effects). An example of photogenic effect of far red would be the emerson effect... an example of photomorphogenic would be adding far red increases stretch in internodes...

Plant lighting, has been a rather "untouched" area of research in many ways until very recently with the increases of LED technology where now research is being conducted at a much faster rate so we are constantly learning more on how certain light wavelengths can effect plants..

I wouldn't conclude to say that Far Red doesn't contribute to bigger buds or more terpenes but I don't want to negate it either.. there really isn't enough solid studies on plant lighting in general, and expecially cannabis to really say that would be true or false... far red light is part of a "well balanced meal" for plants so I do believe the lack of far red would potentially reduce favorable plant results.

 

[leblanca]

Hmm but its been at least 10 years that we have far red LED i think that if in 10 years no one was able to prove an increase in terpene or any real advantage for the cannabis industry i think its not really making much a difference for cannabis, lettuce totally worth it, cannabis not so much, as you say no study prove any real advantage, so its a bit like giving mineral water to your plant and hope it make a positive impact even thought no study has ever claimed a proved benefit.

Migro dude who made some test on far red and havent found any real advantage to it in this video

Also the guy from apogee instrument made a video on far red and show that it does have benefit... for leafy plants.

 

[Icemud]

Hmm but its been at least 10 years that we have far red LED i think that if in 10 years no one was able to prove an increase in terpene or any real advantage for the cannabis industry i think its not really making much a difference for cannabis, lettuce totally worth it, cannabis not so much, as you say no study prove any real advantage, so its a bit like giving mineral water to your plant and hope it make a positive impact even thought no study has ever claimed a proved benefit.

Migro dude who made some test on far red and havent found any real advantage to it in this video

Also the guy from apogee instrument made a video on far red and show that it does have benefit... for leafy plants.

The problem though is that we have not been able to study cannabis "legally" for very long, even Bruce Bugbee (the apogee guy) is one of the leading light researching scientists, and he only does studies on hemp because the universities are not allowed to study cannabis (many times due to funding, local laws..etc). The research just isn't there yet on cannabis and Far Red lighting... Some things are known and can be used beneficially as I will point out below, but some things just need more research...

You can't just say "far red IS/IS NOT beneficial" as a blanket general statement... because like I mentioned above, there are MANY aspects to evaluating plant lighting and many uses for Far Red light and plants...... for example... without a doubt.. SOME far red light is absolutely necessary for the emerson effect. in this case, Far red is absolutely important and useful...

Emerson Effect: some far red is absolutely needed for the best possible photosynthetic efficiency... the ratio of far red though is dependant on other factors because the higher the ratio of Red/Far red, the less stretch you will get, the lower the ratio of Red/Far red then the more stretch you get... the ratio is what is important, but some far red is proven absolutely needed.

If we look at flower/photoperiod manipulation with far red (bloom boosting aka using it for 15 minutes at lights out) to convert the Pr to PFr faster, this absolutely effects the plants flowering cycle, this is fact.. but is this beneficial for cannabis? well depends on how you look at it.. and what is your goal... If you have a commercial grow of 100,000 plants, and cutting a week off a flowering cycle means more profit, less electricity usage, quicker cycles.. etc.. then absolutely using Far Red for flower cycle manipulation would be a benefit...

If you are growing short indica plants and want to add stretch to the plants... then INCREASING the Far Red/Red ratio is absolutely necessary and beneficial..... however, doing this to a stretchy sativa, then it may NOT be beneficial..

We just can't make blanket statements with Far red and cannabis... saying "Far red IS/IS NOT" beneficial...etc" because it can be used different ways, to achieve different results... For some things, it HAS been proven to be able to be used favorably, where other things like "does it increase weight" or "does it increase potency"...these types of questions still need much more research on actual cannabis plants in a controlled study... its not a black/white type question and answer... its much more complex than that...

So really, much more research (on cannabis) needs to be done... we know basics with Far Red, however to answer specific questions on it (does it increase yield)? more specific research is needed to gain useful answers. Just like for years... when LED first came out people used to say Green light is wasted energy, its worthless to plants...etc... just recently about 2 years ago, this was proven wrong, and that Green light is far more important than previously realized.. however it took specific studies to realize this.. up until then, it was just generally assumed plants don't use green light... which we know now is false. Plant lighting is still a very under researched area... especially on cannabis plants.

For example, here is some recent research on cannabis and the "RATIO" of Red to Far red light.... The Effect of Light Spectrum on the Morphology and Cannabinoid Content of Cannabis sativa L. which shows "Plants under HPS treatment were taller and had more flower dry weight than those under treatments AP673L and NS1. Treatment NS1 had the highest CBG content. Treatments NS1 and AP673L had higher CBD and THC concentrations than the HPS treatment. Results were similar between experiments 1 and 2. Our results show that the plant morphology can be manipulated with the light spectrum. Furthermore, it is possible to affect the accumulation of different cannabinoids to increase the potential of medicinal grade cannabis."

In this study, they prove what is already known about the Ratio of Far Red light to Red light... the more far red, the more stretch... But what they also found was that the cannabinoids ALSO reacted to the different light types.... where both LED lights had higher cannabinoids in them over the HPS light, however the HPS light produced more yield...

The problems though with this study are that the light sources are SO VASTLY DIFFERENT, although the ratio of Far Red IS a factor, its NOT the ONLY factor which could have played into the observations (for instance LED generally has much more blue) and blue light has more energy in it.. therefore blue light "hurts" the plant more than red light so therefore blue/violet/uv light is generally associated with more plant response (SAR) where plants produce more protective "sunscreen" and cannabinoids.. Therefore this experiment is sort of flawed because it doesn't isolate just the Far Red.....

Again, as this experiment shows, there are TOO MANY COMPLEX processes going on to just say "Far red light is bad" or "far red light is beneficial" its way more complex than that.

 

[leblanca]

You are correct that there is much research left to be done we might learn more about it and who knows what we might learn.
I dont think far red is useless, like you gave so many good example its a tool for manipulating the plant, make it taller, or make it fall asleep faster to shorten a growing season but unlike UVB that we know increase thc as it has been well documented far red hasent been assosiated yet with what the average grower looks for, which is more weight, more thc or cbd, more terpene.
Once we have documented some more research about the exact benefit of far red i might see an interest in it but as far as i know now, shortening my grow time or stretching my plant in not on my bucket list.